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NintendoLogic

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Everything posted by NintendoLogic

  1. NintendoLogic

    Best Worker in the World in the '80's

    Flair might not get a majority of #1 votes here. But even at a place like this, if you were to do a college football-style Top 25 poll, he'd almost certainly be at the top. For the 80s, I mean.
  2. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    There's a piece on WWE.com drawing parallels between the walkout and NBA lockout. And a few of the heels are using #OccupyRaw hashtags on Twitter. Oh, lordy. The upcoming Raw is in Oklahoma City. I wonder if the obligatory humiliation of JR will tie into the angle.
  3. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    Back to the central topic of the thread. Dave made a good point about the composition of the walkout. They're willing to sacrifice the entire midcard to get HHH over as an uber-babyface, but they can't afford to have the crowd turn on Eve Torres? Somebody's priorities are seriously out of whack.
  4. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    I don't think "technical wrestler" is completely meaningless. I'd use the term to describe someone whose offense is based around holds and leverage-based takedowns as opposed to strikes. It's just that there hasn't been a purely technical wrestler since like the 70s. Even Bret Hart's offense was centered around punches and stomps.
  5. NintendoLogic

    Dave Meltzer stuff

    I've always been puzzled by the degree of vitriol Edge inspired at places like DVDVR. I don't particularly like the guy, but I found most of his work to fall well within the range of Perfectly Acceptable Wrestling. And I'm apparently the only person on Earth who never had any trouble buying the spear as a finisher.
  6. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    The only people I see still hating on Cena's in-ring abilities are commenters on Youtube videos. The F4W types generally will grudgingly admit that he's at least carryable. Their criticisms of Cena tend to concern his push and the staleness of his character. That's probably true. But Joe isn't exactly a technician either. Danielson is, but there I don't remember a lot of chain wrestling in Danielson/Morishima. This caricature of DVDVR as a bunch of Armond Whites who pimp crappy workers for the lulz is really quite tired. It wasn't long ago that people were making fun of DVDVR for pimping Mark Henry. Now virtually everyone agrees that he's the best thing going in the WWE right now. Even Bryan Alvarez wrote in his HIAC recap that "If Henry loses F4W riots." Of that group, I'd only regard Bret as a significant draw, although Shawn might have crept up there with his second run since DX moved a shit-ton of merch. I don't know about Orton as a draw. The only guys in the WWE right now who I'd consider big draws are Cena and Rey, both of whom can go. I'll grant that he's on the lower end, although someone like Victator would dispute that Hogan in his prime was a terrible worker. Regardless, he's the exception rather than the rule. Not a draw. He was in a few money-drawing programs, but he was never someone whose presence or absence significantly impacted the bottom line. He was a notorious flop when pushed as the top guy. Who says a brawler can't be a great worker? His peak year from an in-ring standpoint is generally regarded to be 2001. I've never seen either of these guys regarded as big draws. Their drawing peak was during their 2000 feud, which was also HHH's peak as a worker. The Rock was also well above average by that point. As it so happens, some guy at WC compiled a list of the guys who had headlined the most shows drawing 10000 or more going back to the 1800s: http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...c;f=10;t=002127 Feel free to divide everyone listed into "good worker" and "bad worker" and see which list is longer.
  7. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    Didn't Heenan say that Kurt Angle vs. Shawn Michaels was the greatest match he'd ever seen?
  8. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    I've never claimed to have my finger on the pulse of the zeitgeist, but I don't think that a majority of Internet fans are clamoring for a return to Verne Gagne vs. Billy Robinson-style matches. As for the broader point, he's way off. If you were to list the huge draws who were great workers and the huge draws who were terrible workers, the former list would absolutely dwarf the latter.
  9. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    I re-upped my WON subscription just so I could read Dave's analysis of the HHH piece. I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. He grants that HHH and all the other names he mentioned (and Punk, for that matter) weren't great technical wrestlers in the Karl Gotch/Billy Robinson sense, but that definition is too narrow. He says that HHH was a great technical wrestler because his timing and positioning in the ring were excellent. That's a rather curious definition of technical wrestling, but OK. Except he goes on to say the following: "But if you line up the biggest drawing cards in history and have one list of great technical wrestlers and one list of terrible wrestlers, he’s way wrong on which list is longer. But the list of great workers who drew is longer than either list." So "great worker" is presumably a broader term than "technical wrestler." And a good technical wrestler is someone whose in-ring timing and positioning is great. So what's the difference between that and a great worker? Can you be a great worker and not have good timing and positioning?
  10. NintendoLogic

    Best Worker in the World in the '80's

    I'd go with Flair. Peak Lawler is better than peak Flair, but the sheer volume of good-to-great Flair matches is hard to go against. Then again, Memphis is kind of hit-or-miss for me. ETA: I'm a moron. I thought it said Flair. Between Lawler and Funk, I'd go with Lawler. I enjoy more of Lawler's stuff, and their peaks are about equal.
  11. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    So does that mean the anonymous GM is coming back? Or maybe they should make Teddy the Raw GM too since he apparently already has the power to show up and book matches whenever he feels like it.
  12. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    You can't let a labor dispute get in the way of the Big Show's return.
  13. NintendoLogic

    HHH taking over from Vince on RAW

    Personally, I think not even coming out to take a stand one way or the other is a much bigger pussy move.
  14. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    The fact that I would question the degree to which Mind Games was all that gimmicky notwithstanding, I think this is an aspect of Shawn's legacy that kind of hurts him. I made the point in the 00s thread that the decade as a whole was kind of weak due largely to all the gimmick matches that relied on smoke and mirrors. Shawn's as responsible as anyone for the proliferation of those matches.
  15. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 80's?

    I'm curious about really high-end Slaughter work. What else is there besides the Iron Sheik feud and the Final Conflict cage match?
  16. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    He's not being slept on. It's just that other workers are more highly regarded. Here's my breakdown of 1994-97: 1994-Bret. For me, the ladder match is something that doesn't hold up at all. We've had nearly two decades of people falling off of ladders in dangerous and inventive ways, so it's kind of hard to get worked up over what they did at Wrestlemania. I don't really care for the Summerslam cage match either (I hate escape rule cage match), so Bret/Owen at Wrestlemania is the tiebreaker. That and the Waltman match on Raw are enough to put Bret over the top. 1995-Bret. HBK/Jarrett is the WWF MOTY, but my thoughts on the Summerslam ladder match echo my thoughts on the Wrestlemania one. Bret, meanwhile, had the really good IYH match with Davey, and I think the Diesel match at Survivor Series is at least on par with GFBE. I slightly prefer the former, but I wouldn't fault someone for preferring the latter. He also had good matches with the likes of Jean-Pierre Lafitte and Hakushi while slumming in the midcard. 1996-Shawn. Granted, this is partially due to Bret not working most of the year. But Shawn doesn't just win by default, as he was consistently at least very good. The Diesel match at GBFE and the Mankind match at Mind Games are both classics. He even got a decent match out of Sid. It should be noted, though, that Bret brought it when he was there. I've already given my thoughts on the Hart/Austin Survivor Series match. 1997-Bret. The Wrestlemania submission match is the WWF MOTY by a mile, and the largely forgotten rematch at Revenge of the Taker was also good. Bret/Taker at One Night Only was great, and I also think that their Summerslam match is really underrated. And don't forget Canadian Stampede. As for Shawn, the highlight of his year was the HIAC match, and I don't think it really holds up either. For one, Shawn's overselling is completely ridiculous. It's not quite Summerslam-versus-Hogan level, but it's close. Second, the whole point of the cell was to keep Shawn from running away from Undertaker. So what does Shawn do? He escapes the cell! I'm not saying that should never happen in any HIAC ever, but doing it in the very first one killed the gimmick right out the gate. In sum, I only see one year where Shawn has a clear edge over Bret, and that isn't enough to offset Bret's edge over the bulk of the decade.
  17. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Workers of the 00s?

    For what it's worth, I found it was Finlay's performance that dragged down the JD match. I was pretty shocked at how pedestrian he was at the things he's supposed to be great at, like selling. One minute he's eating a German on the floor, the next he's popping up fresh as a daisy to knock Benoit off the apron. Kurt Angle rightfully gets crucified for stuff like that, so Finlay shouldn't get a free pass. And on the "playing one's role well" front, it was kind of jarring to see a supposed tough-guy bruiser working Memphis heel spots. Real tough guys don't fake injuries or beg off at the knees. Totally agree on Cena. He's my working #3. I can't think of anyone who would obviously go ahead of him even though I don't think he got really good until about 2006. Truth be told, this past decade was pretty weak.
  18. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    I concede the point. When I wrote that, the only ones who came to mind were Big Daddy and The Sheik, maybe JYD.
  19. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Workers of the 00s?

    The only Benoit/Finlay match I've seen was the Judgment Day one, and I didn't think it was particularly good. And I maintain that Benoit was as responsible as Angle for the development of the WWE Main Event Workrate Epic style. Anyway, Rey and Danielson are the clear #1 and #2. Other than that, I can't think of anybody who was consistently good over the course of the entire decade. One of the big problems as I see it was that there were way too many smoke-and-mirrors gimmick matches that blurred the distinction between good workers and mediocre ones.
  20. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    At least it's not boring like talking about Bret some more. /sarcasm
  21. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    The best 90s Rock matches I can think of off the top of my head were against Austin at Backlash 99 and the ladder match against HHH at Summerslam 98. And pace Jerry, I would argue that his in-ring performance did indeed matter a great deal. He wouldn't have talked nearly as many asses into seats if he couldn't hang in the ring. I seriously think you can literally count the huge draws who weren't at least decent in the ring on one hand.
  22. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    That Bret write-up is pretty spot-on, but I would note that plenty of people, myself included, consider the Survivor Series match with Austin superior to the Wrestlemania one. In fact, I think it's the greatest US match of all time.
  23. I don't know if the MLB/WWE analogy really works. The antipathy MLB owners have for the players is easy to explain. They've never been able to break the player's union the way their counterparts in the NFL, NBA, and NHL have. Tearing the players down may have made baseball less popular, but class solidarity trumps self-interest. The WWE, on the other hand, doesn't even have a union. There's no rational reason for them to tear down their own workers.
  24. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    What El-P said. Great matches aren't necessarily the end-all be-all, but I don't know what else you'd use as a starting point.
  25. NintendoLogic

    Best U.S. Worker Of The 90's?

    Wait, what? I have a hard time seeing how something other than great matches could be a better determinant of who a great worker is. If you want to argue that no one working in the US in the 90s had enough truly great matches for this to be a relevant consideration, I can see that. Otherwise, I think this is way off.
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