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elliott

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Everything posted by elliott

  1. elliott

    Greg Valentine vs William Regal

    I'm not sure who i'd pick but I'd have loved to see them match up at some point.
  2. elliott

    GWE Gordy List

    So I've been toying with the idea of putting together a Gordy List type list of questions for Greatest Wrestler Ever Candidates. Like the original Gordy List, my intent isn't to has a list of questions that you answer yes/no to and there's a magic # you've got to hit to be a candidate. I see this as a tool to collect thoughts, discuss traits and recommend matches in an easy format. I am certain I am missing questions and please feel free to suggest them or take this list use it and add to it as you see fit. 1. What kind of candidate is this wrestler (Peak vs Longevity,Peak+ Longevity, Big Match Wrestler, Week to Week Performer etc) and what range would you consider ranking them? 2. What is your elevator pitch for this wrestler to be a Top 100 Wrestler? (Sum up their case in a short paragraph). 3. Were they ever the best wrestler in the world? Were they ever the best wrestler in their country? Were they ever the best wrestler in their promotion? Who were some of their competitors for the best wrestler in the world, country, and promotion? 4. How many years were they a top worker (top worker being a candidate for top 10 wrestler in the world)? Who were some of the other top workers of this era? 5. Were they a great worker before their prime? Were they a great worker after their prime? How great were they (were they a best in the world, country, promotion candidate while before their prime/after their prime) 6. Did they have the opportunities to produce a large body of excellent matches? IF YES 6a Do they have a large body of excellent matches? 6b Do they have a large body of excellent matches against a variety of opponents? 6c Do they have a large body of excellent matches in a variety of settings? (for example singles, tags, gimmicks, no gimmicks, brawls, technical, short matches, long matches etc) 6d How much of those excellent matches were a direct result of their performance? IF NO 7. Do they have a large body of excellent performances in a variety of roles (heel/face, undercard/midcard/main event, champion/challenger, underdog/favorite, younger/older etc) 8. Do they work in a way that is consistent with the way they're booked & presented? 9. What are their standout traits? (For example, selling, psychology, offense, character work etc) 10. Did they make the people and workers around them better? 11. Is there any reason to believe that this wrestler was better or worse than they appeared? 12. If you had to pick 5-10 matches (Or more) to sell someone on this wrestler what would they be? (Not necessarily the best matches but ones that are best representative of the wrestlers’ GWE case). 13. Feel free to recommend more matches here if you like! 14. Any final thoughts you’d like to share?
  3. elliott

    Johnny Valentine

    It turns out that person is a troll who has been banned multiple times from this site. So it was my mistake for engaging.
  4. elliott

    Johnny Valentine

    I think if someone reads the thread and gets excited to see Buddy Rogers vs Johnny Valentine they should be aware that its less than 3 minutes of wrestling. Its less disappointing to hear it up front than to read some glowing review go searching for something and then find out its like just a couple of minutes. I watched all of the Johnny Valentine footage that is available. Its the first thing I did when this project was announced. He looks fucking incredible but ultimately its a really disappointing (and really short) journey because we're looking at 3 matches and then a bunch of clips. I do think he's a more viable low end candidate than someone like Londos because he actually meets the criteria of 3 full matches, but in addition to that we do have longer more extended clips. There are lot more 8-11 minute videos of Johnny Valentine where he looks great that we can look at which is a lot more useful than 45 seconds of newsreels. We also have a lot more footage of the era that he worked so we can get a better idea of what his contemporaries actually looked like to better place him in a real context.
  5. elliott

    Johnny Valentine

    Really amazing 2 minutes and 40 seconds. How does it compare to a WWE Highlight video of a match?
  6. elliott

    Masao Orihara

    I watched a trio of matches from 2001 Michinoku Pro that was Masao Orihara & Great Sasuke vs Gedo & Dick Togo and they were all really good and worked differently. One is more of an all over the place brawl with plunder, another was a storyline match where Orihara abandons Sasuke mid match only to come back and the 3rd was a classic old school southern tag where Orihara gets isolated, bloodied and worked over building to the Sasuke hot tag. Orihara looked really good in all 3 matches but was the absolute star of the 11/2/01 southern tag style match. Just a great job selling & taking an ass kicking from these two dickish heels. I've really been impressed with all of the Orihara I've seen (No joke, that 1994 match with Ohtani is a Juniors MOTDC) and if he keeps turning up in random matches & feuds like this one w/ Sasuke vs Togo & Gedo he's gonna wind up on my top 100.
  7. elliott

    2026 Nomination Thread

    Josh Barnett Josh Barnett vs Kiyoshi Tamura (U-Style - 11/23/05) Josh Barnett vs Hideki Suzuki (IGF - 12/31/11) Josh Barnett vs Jon Moxley (Bloodsport - 4/8/21) Pretty surprised Barnett hasn't been nominated. Big burly shoot style worker who can work the mat and strike & suplex with the best of them. The 3 matches I've put forward to go with the nomination I honestly see as MOTDC for each of their decades. If someone has 3 MOTDC in 3 different decades, they deserve a look. Someone I definitely plan on watching more (or ALL) of during this project. His highs are as impressive as pretty much anyone from the last 20 years.
  8. elliott

    GWE Gordy List

    If anyone has any other questions they think would be good, please feel free to recommend them and/or add them yourself if you feel like walking through a wrestler. Thrilled to see Jetlag take the ball and run with it already! I wanna get some of these up myself in the coming weeks.
  9. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    I see zero point in engaging further with this. What a waste.
  10. elliott

    Takeshi Ono

    Gotcha!
  11. elliott

    Takeshi Ono

    Fantastic stuff. One question coming out of reading this that I had is from here: Is the Orihara team hurt by opportunity/opponents here? That seems like a really cool team on paper and I know you've had really postiive things to say about Orihara in the past
  12. elliott

    Tarzan Goto

    Fantastic! Great stuff! Goto is someone who always rules. Probably my favorite Onita opponent. Definitely someone to dig your teeth into.
  13. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    ^ Great stuff here thank you!
  14. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    I've read it both ways, Ethan. I've seen him dismissed as a worker because he wasn't a great shooter in the Frank Gotch, Joe Stecher, Ed Lewis line. And he was much smaller than those guys and that prevented his rise in the 20s. That and politics and the old guys wanting to hold onto their spots. I've also seen him described as a great/exciting "Worker" wrestler who had matches fans loved. I'm sure I've seen Steve Yohe describe Londos as the Chris Benoit of the 1920s and the Hulk Hogan of the 1930s (this was back in the early 00s when comparing someone to Benoit meant they were an elite in ring worker) which is about as high praise as you can give someone. I agree that from the small clips we have he certainly seems like he's more on the awesome side than the just "good" side. But I'm not going to pretend I can extrapolate a 40 year career based on some 45 second clips and then be able to put that into a broader context which is just LOL. Londos is an absolutely fascinating figure though and I would encourage actual discussion of him based on what we can know. LIke I wanna hear more about him drawing 50K in Greece and Italy in the 30s or whatever. He's probably the most important & influential wrestler prior to Hulk Hogan but its always been difficult to get beyond generalities and into specifics.
  15. elliott

    Tanomusaku Toba

    FUCKING AWESOME! Literally everything I hoped for when putting this list together. Here's a guy that I've never seen or heard of and now I have great introduction to this new (to me) wrestler. Thank you Jet this was awesome!
  16. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    Ok so make the case for JIm Londos based on the existing footage. I've asked in his thread multiple times already. Edit I also hope you stop with the obviously bad faith arguments like tryign to compare Londos to Destroyer. We literally have hours upon hours of complete Destroyer matches against a huge variety of opponents spread over decades of time. What's more we have hundreds of hours of wrestling from the same era which we can compare to Destroyer's work. You can't say the same about Londos for any point of his career. You know this has always been a footage based project. There's literally one rule to the project there has to be 3 matches on tape.
  17. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    For years the Lioness vs Jaguar match from 8/85 existed only in clip form and many people called it the greatest match we'd never see in full and pointed to the 10 minutes of clips as proof that it was the lost classic of our time. What happened when we got the full match and got the full Devil vs Chigusa match from the same show? Lioness vs Jaguar is now famously not even the best match from its show. I really don't think asking for 3 full matches is too much. Its a I ow bar. Sorry the cool new favorites aren't eligible. This is a project about footage and has been from the start. Its been the only criteria from the beginning. Would we claim to know everything there is to know and place him into historical context if the only footage we had of Martin Scorsese's career was After Hours, fifteen minute clips of The Departed and then a bunch of disconnected 40 second clips? Of course not. But that would be substantially more footage than we have of Jim Londos wrestling
  18. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    There isn't a full match. I would love it if there was some. The glimpses we have are great. But its not enough. LIterally the only criteria this project has is for a wrestler to have 3 full matches. This is a project based on footage, not reputation.
  19. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    Point me to a full match. Point to 1. I have watched every available piece of Londos footage in a certain google drive. There are not any full matches there. The 3 matches that got Londos nominated were: vs Bronko - we have less than 15 of a 45+ minute match vs DickShikat - we have less than 20 min of an 81 minute long match vs Primo - 13 total minutes. I have no idea how long it actually went but I suspect longer than 13.
  20. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    How can you tell he's a standout of his era? We have lots of footage from the 1930s? I thought we weren't factoring Drawing into the equation?
  21. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    Ok so make it. No one has even attempted to do it yet.
  22. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    I remember on the old WOL Eyada show I sent in a question about Terrible Ted and made a joke that he was a better worker than Kevin Nash based on what I'd seen and Meltzer was like "Come on, he's not better than Nash, Nash knows how to work."
  23. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    My initial thought was that it would be like the "Top 25 Wrestlers I wish More Footage Existed for." Like I actually think voting for someone like Hans Schmidt is reasonable. Like Loss said we have a bunch of 20+ minute long matches in complete form against a variety of opponents. To take the other example we have exactly zero complete matches from Jim Londos. You can see from the clips he looks awesome but its like less than 60 minutes of footage out of a 40 year career or something? Based on what we have of Londos (and I've watched all of it thats presently available) I know enough to know I want to see more but I'm not going to pretend I can fairly compare him to Stan Hansen as an in ring performer based on the footage that exists.
  24. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    Yeah that's why I wanted to ask. To get a feel for what you had in mind as far as footage vs no footage and what we know vs what we don't know
  25. elliott

    Historical/Lack of Footage Candidates

    Does this include historical figures we have no footage of? So for example could I say Abraham Lincoln (in the extreme) or lets say Farmer Burns (less extreme) Or is this about about people with limited footage but not a ton like Antonio Rocca or El Solitario?
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