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Charles (Loss)

[1992-01-05-UWA] El Hijo del Santo vs Negro Casas

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The picture isn't great and there's no sound, but by God, it's Santo vs Casas, arguably the best rivalry in wrestling history, so it goes on regardless. Because of the picture, it's hard to compare it to other matches, but there is some excellent action here. The full match is 45 minutes and we get about 18 minutes of footage that aired. Cool inclusion.

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Guest kowking

The picture isn't great and there's no sound, but by God, it's Santo vs Casas, arguably the best rivalry in wrestling history, so it goes on regardless. Because of the picture, it's hard to compare it to other matches, but there is some excellent action here. The full match is 45 minutes and we get about 18 minutes of footage that aired. Cool inclusion.

Is there a comp?

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From vague memory, this is worked a lot differently than the other Santo/Casas matches on tape. I almost got a UWF 2.0/PWFG'ish feel from it. Great match.

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Yeah this was very mat based but man was it awesome. Santo is just lightning quick and Casas is just as fast. The end was a little weird but finished with a nice Tope.

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Will's already done the Santo set with all (?) his matches with Casas.

Although this particular match is not on it, which I would figure is because it had not been unearthed at the time that comp was made, given how incredibly thorough it is.

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Just got the 1992 yearbook comp today, and re-watched this match today, and it's still fantastic. I first watched it a few years ago when Tim Cooke posted about it at WKO, and I was really impressed by the work. I loved the struggle of some of the holds that they worked for, really fierce and strong mat work. Estan tercos when it comes to avoiding some holds or going after holds. Very heated match, I loved it.

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Sorry, I missed the word "no".

 

No, I wasn't into this either I'm afriad. There were some nice touches in the matwork - for example I always like it when they punch the area they are working on repeatedly - but on the whole my general criticisms of lucha-style matwork apply.

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Sorry, I missed the word "no".

 

No, I wasn't into this either I'm afriad. There were some nice touches in the matwork - for example I always like it when they punch the area they are working on repeatedly - but on the whole my general criticisms of lucha-style matwork apply.

It's cool. It took me some time to get into lucha, but I eventually grew to love it. There are some mat-based matches I think you'll find amazingly easy to enjoy later on the set that might shift your perception. Lucha matwork was always something I liked, but trios matches confused me for a while. Still, it's nice that you were at least open-minded enough to watch it even though you're generally not a fan of the style. There is an Atlantis/Emilio Charles match later on the set that's basically laid out like an Arn Anderson match that I think you'll enjoy quite a bit.

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These days the mat work based matches are pretty much my favorite kind of lucha

 

It looks contrived and fake, but not only that I find it deathly boring too.

So what kind of mat work style do you perfer then?

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Sorry, I missed the word "no".

 

No, I wasn't into this either I'm afriad. There were some nice touches in the matwork - for example I always like it when they punch the area they are working on repeatedly - but on the whole my general criticisms of lucha-style matwork apply.

It's cool. It took me some time to get into lucha, but I eventually grew to love it. There are some mat-based matches I think you'll find amazingly easy to enjoy later on the set that might shift your perception. Lucha matwork was always something I liked, but trios matches confused me for a while. Still, it's nice that you were at least open-minded enough to watch it even though you're generally not a fan of the style. There is an Atlantis/Emilio Charles match later on the set that's basically laid out like an Arn Anderson match that I think you'll enjoy quite a bit.

 

 

That is a real strong comparison especially with the arm work.

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Yeah, I can see how someone would have reservations about lucha matwork. I like it for the creativity and smoothness. I also like the idea of title matches being wrestled clean and on the mat.

 

I wonder what you think about Volk Han's shoot-style matwork? You probably wouldn't consider it contrived, at least. I sometimes find it hard to follow because Han is so fast and I know very little about MMA style submissions (although I guess that's really not a pre-requisite).

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I actually don't understand what isn't to like about Lucha matwork and this is coming from someone who didn't get into Lucha until the last three years. I suppose if someone hated all matwork I could see how they would hate Lucha matwork. But I don't understand what about Lucha matwork would be unappealing.

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These days the mat work based matches are pretty much my favorite kind of lucha

 

It looks contrived and fake, but not only that I find it deathly boring too.

So what kind of mat work style do you perfer then?

 

Basically as close to Bockwinkel vs. Robinson as possible - the opposite of all the fancy shit they do in Lucha. You'd never ever be able to do that to a guy who isn't working with you. The holds are ridiculous and I hate them because as a fan they bring me out of the match.

 

I'm saying it seems more like an exhibition than a match and I don't like that.

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This was good for what we got. It seemed to go by fast. Some good mat work. I haven't seen much of this feud or either guy, so I don't really have any context.

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I'm in the same boat as Jerry when it comes to lucha matwork. I'm not really a fan of matwork for its own sake, but I can get into old-school NWA-style matwork. Lucha matwork, on the other hand, strikes me as too choreographed. The submissions in particular are so goofy and convoluted as to eradicate my suspension of disbelief. I generally enjoy brawling lucha (or more broadly, apuesta match-style lucha), but title match-style lucha does nothing for me.

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Older lucha is closer to NWA style matwork, but NWA style matwork is bullshit for the most part. It's a bunch of leverage holds until it's time to hit the ropes and do a finish. Lucha matwork (when submission heavy) is far better. You need to watch the right guys on the mat, though. Casas and Santo aren't a good mat pairing. Santo was a better mat worker than Casas but you don't get strong matwork in most Santo matches unfortunately.

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The best matwork I've seen in a lucha match is probably El Dandy vs. Javier Llanes from 3/11/94. It struck me as more like something out of World of Sport than a typical lucha match. But even then, WoS style is something I find easier to appreciate than enjoy.

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