jdw Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 I think we all agree on that: booked as heel vs heel, but not at all worked heel vs heel in the pre-match or match. The promos are probably on youtube, and the vibe was just a bit more heelish on Macho while Jake was sliding closer into his face-ish role. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 SD6 was another example of the degrees of heeldom thing I'm blanking on any specific examples but I know Heyman would do this in ECW too I think heel v. heel dynamics work great as long as you have good performers and a reason for it. I've always loved matches where both guys are trying to cheat and take shortcuts.....it happens in real life and other forms of media as noted, so why not in wrestling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 An old school example would be Blassie vs the Sheik from LA in'69. Of course I wasn't there, and I don't think any footage exists (but if it does Id love to see it!), but from what I've read I think the big attraction for fans, and what made the match work, was seeing two crazy, bloodthirsty motherfuckers tear each other apart. Blassie, being the hometown guy, was cheered, but I don't think he deviated very much from his heel back of tricks in the matches. But again, I wasn't there, so I'm just guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Haven't seen Flair/Reed from Clash 13 in forever. How was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted September 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Was Race/Flair from the All Japan set heel vs. heel technically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted September 22, 2011 Report Share Posted September 22, 2011 Bret Hart vs. Bad News Brown in 88. The feud started at Mania, with Hart's face turn starting. They went to Bret not wanting Jimmy at ringside, which is another face spot. I would say the whole thing was a clear move to make Bret (and the HF) a face. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 . Face vs. Face has produced some of the best ever matches. But the dynamic of heel vs. heel makes no sense at all from the crowd's perspective. What are these face v face matches that were best matches ever? or have had effective booking dynamics? Monster v monster for the spectacle of mostrosity: Abby v Brodyish stuff has always worked and heel v heel with heels trying ot outheel their opponent was drivining force of EMLL booking for a while. Tiered heels has also been effective booking strategy for a while: you run Inoki/Fujinami v Zambouiee Express and run Choshu/Hamaguchi v Zambouiee Express to set up Choshu/Hamaguchi v Inoki/Fujinami. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Misawa vs. Kobashi Hart vs. Davey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainmakerrtv Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Misawa vs. Kobashi Hart vs. Davey Reed vs Murdoch . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm not too trendy to say: Warrior vs. Hogan (WM6) - fantastically booked "passing of the torch" angle that was electric at the time and still held in extremely high regard in the popular wrestling fan's consciousness today Warrior vs. Savage (WM7) - sort of counts, great retirement match Bret Hart vs. Roddy Piper (WM8) - good match Warrior vs. Savage (SS 92) - great angle this with Flair and Perfect's shennanigans around the ring, then destroying Savage's leg and Warrior doing the honorable tihng and not taking advantage. And I think it's a pretty good match too Bret Hart vs. 123 Kid (on Raw) - decent little match Breat Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (WM12) Rock vs. Austin (WM17) And of course ... Sting and Luger vs. The Steiners (Superbrawl I) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dooley Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Savage was a pretty clear heel at WM7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I knew someone would say that but ... shush ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Breat Hart vs. Shawn Michaels (WM12) Is that considered to be a good match? Rock vs. Austin (WM17) That's a match that builds to and ends with a heel turn. Warrior vs. Hogan (WM6) - fantastically booked "passing of the torch" angle that was electric at the time and still held in extremely high regard in the popular wrestling fan's consciousness today You were talking about the crowd dynamics hurting the booking of heel v heel. I thought at this point Warrior v Hogan is pointed to as something that hurt Warriors long term prospects and as a reason you need a transitional heel champion. The dynamics of face v face (even when it doesn't get the "boring chant" and Bobby Heenan on commentary pontificatingabout "eventually one of these guys will have to throw a punch") splits a crowd and leaves the crowd sympathetic to the defeated face. Pedro Morales v Bruno famously is something that hurt Morales, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovert Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm not too trendy to say: What is untrendy about what you listed? 80% of Shawn/Bret is profoundly boring few rate it even back in the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Well Meltzer gave it ****1/4 and our old friend Scott Keith gave it ****3/4, so sure it was "rated". I haven't seen it in about 10 years, but I do remember being bored for large chunks of it. But then in any 45+ minute match, you get lag periods. I mean I've found myself bored at some of the matwork on the All Japan set in some of the longer matchers, even in the transcendent Flair vs. Jumbo from 83, so you're always going to get that, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Hart/Michaels is easily a good match. I think the debate is generally whether it's a great match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Savage v. Warrior at WM 7 was face v. face? Since when? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Well Meltzer gave it ****1/4 and our old friend Scott Keith gave it ****3/4, so sure it was "rated". Using SKeith as a reference is a huge no-no. The match is *good* at best to me, which for a "Bret passing the torch to Michaels at WM" match, should be considered a failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 El-P, you should know I hate Scott Keith more than anyone, but as a barometer for what IWC smarks were saying at the time, he's generally a good litmus test. His ratings and Meltzer's ratings are seldom more than a star apart. I mean if Bret, HBK or Benoit are part of a match with either of them you can generally expect a *** minimum rating from either of them. If Hogan is involved, likewise, you can probably expect to - a * or two. I reckon if you gave me a match, just from the two workers involved I could predict what both Meltzer and Keith would give it without seeing the match. But yeah, Keith is not a guy to lean on for making a case, but he is a guy who can reflect what people were saying at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Sigh. Huh? I do agree that Bret v. Piper is a perfect face v. face match. What about Bret v. Perfect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 The one from KotR '93? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerpride Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 The one from KotR '93? Yes. I'm pretty sure that's the only face v. face match that they had. What point were you trying to make with Savage v. Warrior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have no idea what the consensus was in 96 about Bret vs Shawn. Bret vs Perfect wasn't a pure face vs face match, as the story of the match is Perfect getting frustrated and heeling it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 What point were you trying to make with Savage v. Warrior? Hard to say looking back. It's probably one of the greatest face turns of all time, so by the time it's over the match we'd just seen between a heel and a face was retroactively face vs. face, but I'm aware this is a weak argument. The Summerslam 92 example is better. I think a face vs. face match with third-party heel shennanigans on the outside is a formula we don't see very often. I love that "Who's corner is Mr. Perfect going to be in?" angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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