NintendoLogic Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Per the orders of goodhelmet, the Rey discussion going on in the Punk thread must now be directed here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey has been awesome since...well, his debut. But I wouldn't call him the best flippy-floppy guy, as Jack Evans and PAC's 3rd best highspot beats out anything Rey has ever done highspot wise. He's certainly in the top hundred of the GOAT though - Evans and Pac - not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think Rey's hardest and most innovative flying moves blow away Evans and Pac. Mascarita Dorada might be. Rey's flipping plancha into a rana > any 630 or whatever the highspot of the month is these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey has been awesome since...well, his debut. But I wouldn't call him the best flippy-floppy guy, as Jack Evans and PAC's 3rd best highspot beats out anything Rey has ever done highspot wise. He's certainly in the top hundred of the GOAT though - Evans and Pac - not so much. Really? Best 100? Rey is easily in the highest of highest echelon of pro wrestlers to ever wrestle. Rey can flip and fly but that is hardly the only thing he does well. In fact, I want to edit the sub title to this thread because it offends my internal wrestling fan meter. Fucking flippy flop guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Liska Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I kind of started this by saying he should be in the discussion for best ever, and now I'm second-guessing myself. But I think Rey's sheer volume of really good to great matches has to be up there with anybody. I can't think of many times in the past 9 years where WWE has given him 10 minutes of TV or PPV time and he hasn't delivered an above average match. It's crazy. He must be responsible for hundreds of quality TV matches, which you can't say for many wrestlers because you can only do that in modern WWE. I really started thinking about this during the RAW a few weeks ago when he had matches with Miz and Cena. They were both super-heated, exciting, fun, and different matches. It feels like we just take it for granted at this point. In the past few months he's had a great 3-way with Del Rio and Punk, a great tag match with Riley against Miz and Swagger, the Punk PPV match, falls count anywhere PPV match with Rhodes, 2 good Punk TV matches, and a great 3-way with Del Rio and Miz for the #1 contender spot. Who else but the early 90s AJPW guys have produced that volume of output? And Rey isn't exactly working with Kobashi and Jumbo every week. I do think you need to enjoy modern WWE to see Rey in this light, since that's where his best and most consistent work has been. I don't get the sense that modern WWE is too well-regarded around the internet, which is probably an issue for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victator Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey's clearly the flippy flying dude. The real discussion is where he ranks overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey has been awesome since...well, his debut. But I wouldn't call him the best flippy-floppy guy, as Jack Evans and PAC's 3rd best highspot beats out anything Rey has ever done highspot wise. He's certainly in the top hundred of the GOAT though - Evans and Pac - not so much. Really? Best 100? Rey is easily in the highest of highest echelon of pro wrestlers to ever wrestle. Rey can flip and fly but that is hardly the only thing he does well. In fact, I want to edit the sub title to this thread because it offends my internal wrestling fan meter. Fucking flippy flop guy. I agree that calling Rey a flippy guy is selling him criminally short. The subtitle was a tongue-in-cheek reference to jdw's post in the Punk thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Just for the sake of stating a number, whilst I'm not sold on Rey as an absolute GOATC, I don't see how he's outside Top 25 and that's being loose; I probably have him in the 15-20 bracket but that's without making a conscious list in my head. Like I said in the Punk thread, I think he's become "THE" US Babyface worker, and he's also my '00s WOTD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rob Naylor Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey is very likely greatest flyer of all time. He's almost peerless. But I think if more people saw Pac, he'd be untouched these days as a current flying wrestler. Pac and Ricochet are so fucking improved and both do things that defy description!!!! I just wish they were seen on a wider platform. Pac is so fucking underrated it's a sin. But yeah, Rey is untouchable. Greatest flyer of all time. I agree that he's "never" been not good... and I can't think of many wrestlers I'd say that about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I think the lowest point in Rey's career had to be the Devil horn days of 2000 when he was wrestling guys like Kronik and the Harris Twins. But even then he was the best guy in the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey has been awesome since...well, his debut. But I wouldn't call him the best flippy-floppy guy, as Jack Evans and PAC's 3rd best highspot beats out anything Rey has ever done highspot wise. He's certainly in the top hundred of the GOAT though - Evans and Pac - not so much. Rey is easily in the highest of highest echelon of pro wrestlers to ever wrestle. I'm glad you like him more than I do, but what were you trying to do there exactly? I'm not going to change my mind that easily - hell, Rey could be in my top twenty/thirty but I used a different umbrella number and I didn't make a list. Besides, I said it without saying it that Evans/PAC Maybe a POLL and DISCUSSION FORUM should be erected because these conversations keep coming up - GOAT? Nevertheless, I'd wager to think that being in the top 100 of all-time wrestlers would be an accomplishment in itself, not disparaging commentary of someone's career. How many pro wrestlers have there been - a few thousand at least? 100 / 2,500 = .04 So he would be in the highest echelon of wrestlers all-time (top 4%) just being inside the top one-hundred if there are or have been at least twenty-five hundred pro wrestlers. Top four percent is up there in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I remember a discussion on dvdvr a few years ago about Rey v Liger. I think it was pretty split. Personally I think Rey is clearly superior Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey is of course awesome. But I feel like to balance out the discussion, it should be mentioned that most of the 1992-1996 AAA trios matches he was part of opposite Juventud or Psicosis and company really don't hold up well at all. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean much, but I don't think "he was always awesome" is accurate. I would say 1995 was his first great year, and a lot of the matches people praised at the time -- especially the touring matches in ECW and WAR -- don't look all that good today. Still, 16+ years of being awesome is a remarkable ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey working the shitty WWE style based around one of the most ridiculous and annoying spot ever really disqualifies him from being considered a GOAT contender to me. I'm blaming the company and its policy of molding workers, not Rey, who by all acount is an awesome worker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I agree that calling Rey a flippy guy is selling him criminally short. The subtitle was a tongue-in-cheek reference to jdw's post in the Punk thread. "He's just a flippy floppy guy." -WrestlingClassics What a stupid thing to say. Just for reference, in case it wasn't clear: That was a (paraphrased) statement by some crank on WrestlingClassics more than a half decade ago. He wasn't without supporters who thought the say thing. So please credit it to WC cranks. I like Rey. Suspect I saw and liked him before all but one or two posters on this board, and certainly have defended him against cranks over the past two decades. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey Misterio Jr. I think there's another one as well, since I seem to recall one of the old cranky wrestlers who posted to Classics saying something similar. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 For all the criticism you can adress to Rey over the years, and there is some I guess, to say he's a "flippy floppy guy" is really stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey is of course awesome. But I feel like to balance out the discussion, it should be mentioned that most of the 1992-1996 AAA trios matches he was part of opposite Juventud or Psicosis and company really don't hold up well at all. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't mean much, but I don't think "he was always awesome" is accurate. I would say 1995 was his first great year, and a lot of the matches people praised at the time -- especially the touring matches in ECW and WAR -- don't look all that good today. Still, 16+ years of being awesome is a remarkable ride. Really disagree that the ECW stuff doesn't hold up. Overall it is a VERY tiny portion of his career anyhow, but from where I stand those matches hold up remarkably well when you consider what we have seen since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Rey working the shitty WWE style based around one of the most ridiculous and annoying spot ever really disqualifies him from being considered a GOAT contender to me. I'm blaming the company and its policy of molding workers, not Rey, who by all acount is an awesome worker. As a counterpoint I just want to thank god for modern WWE "style." It has given us more quality tv matches than any promotion in history, with far fewer duds than any promotion in history. Rey is the undisputed king of the most consistent week-to-week in ring product in the history of television wrestling. I also agree with MJH that he is the best U.S. babyface in history, though I could probably be convinced that Terry Funk is the greatest all around babyface. Either way Rey does not look out of place in a GOAT based on those two things alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 As a counterpoint I just want to thank god for modern WWE "style." It has given us more quality tv matches than any promotion in history, with far fewer duds than any promotion in history. Modern WWE style (and I put the entire production into the word "style") has basically killed my love for wrestling and has only produced an entire landscape of dullness to me. Fuck modern WWE style. Good for those you can still find something to love in it, I sure can't no matter how many chance I give it. Like I said, either it has passed me by completely, either it really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 As far as Rey Mysterio best US babyface ever, Ricky Morton and Ricky Steamboat say hello, but I agree he's easily in the top 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 As a counterpoint I just want to thank god for modern WWE "style." It has given us more quality tv matches than any promotion in history, with far fewer duds than any promotion in history. Modern WWE style (and I put the entire production into the word "style") has basically killed my love for wrestling and has only produced an entire landscape of dullness to me. Fuck modern WWE style. Good for those you can still find something to love in it, I sure can't no matter how many chance I give it. Like I said, either it has passed me by completely, either it really sucks. It's passed you by completely, because I can't see any argument that modern in ring WWE sucks. There are tons of things wrong with modern WWE. Poor booking, repetitious main event scene/lack of depth up top, terrible writing, bad promos, shitty announcing, annoying camera work. So much wrong with it that I don't blame people for not watching it despite the fact that I'm a fan. But Week-to-week, in ring quality is pretty much the one area where I think the product easily destroys any subsequent time period. Not sure what I would point to as a milemarker for when that change hit, but I would guess if I went back and looked it would probably fall somewhere in the 04/05 corridor with Rey and Eddy being big parts of the jump start and Rey being the "ace" of that style essentially from day one. As for Rey comp to Morton and Steamboat, I would not fault anyone for taking either of those guys over Rey but I prefer Rey's offense which is sort of a tiebreaker all other things being equal. Actually I rate Rey pretty easily over Steamer in the sense that I don't think Steamboat's bumping/cut off/hope spots were as compelling as Rey's. Morton is right there with him though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 Our threshold of "great!" and "quality" and "non-dud" is pretty low. Kobashi-Bossman didn't make the 1993 set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o57rfqqWUIE Dave gave it **. "Average" match, and he really crapped on Bossman: 10/17 ALL JAPAN: 1. Kenta Kobashi pinned Big Bubba Rogers (Bossman) after five legdrops, with the final one coming from the top rope. Rogers, who is usually a hard-working good worker, looked awful here. Don't know if he was ill, but he appeared to be totally blown up and worked like a clumsy rookie with bad timing, which wasn't helped by the fact he was on offense most of the way. Kobashi was nowhere up to his normal level, however the last few minutes with Kobashi doing one hot move after another made the match decent overall. ** I just sat here watching it at work. Struck me as a watchable match. I looked up Dave's review *after* watching it, though recalled Dave thought it was a ** range match. I'm not as down on Bossman's performance as Dave was, and frankly think that Bossman has some cool shit down the stretch (forgot about the power bomb). Would that be a Raw/SD! non-dud? Quality, especially if one were a Kobashi or Bossman fan? We don't have to put over Rey by saying he's The Best on The Best TV Show of All-Time of The Best Period Of Wrestling TV of All-Time with the Least Crap of All-Time with More Great of All-Time Ever~! Pimping Kobashi's 1993 as the best year of TV that I've ever seen out of a wrestler doesn't need me to say: "Kobashi has a great match Bossman against too." It's a watchable match. I have a soft spot for Bossman, especially when he gets out of 100% of his safest formula and gives me a few "Hey, that's nifty" moments. So maybe that maks me biased and I find it more watchable than others. Of course there's the Taue-Bossman match from an earlier series that I would love to know what Taue Fans think about it. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 That's your argument John and you are entitled to it. I would say you are a guy who's threshold for great is quite high or at the very least much different from mine. I'm also not sure who you are referring to with the collective "We." You might accuse me of being hyperbolic or going to unnecessary extremes in my Rey pimping here, but I happen to believe what I wrote. I literally believe Rey is the best week-to-week tv wrestler in history. I literally believe modern WWE churns out more week-to-week quality than any promotion in history. This isn't me trying to make a hard sell. It's me avoiding "hedging" and going on record with what I actually think. You obviously don't agree with any of that and that is fine (this isn't an assumption on my part - form memory you didn't have a single post-02 match on your Best WWF ballot at SC and when I questioned you about whether you had seen the other stuff you insisted you had seen anything that would be relevant), but I'd rather not beat around the bush with my language. In your WWF thread you regularly talk about how things worked, or how they got reactions, or whether or not they are watchable, et. Despite years of being one of the most prominent Backlund pimps (er..) on the net, you still back away from talking about him as being "great" and when people question that the talk comes to how that is a difficult sell and you prefer to focus on what he was good at, getting him more credit, et. That is all well and good and that sort of attempt at "above the fray" analysis isn't without merit. But I would not write as much about someone as you have about Backlund if I didn't consider him great and I would have no problem saying "he's great" if the topic came up. Rey Mysterio is great and all of those things I said are a big part of the reason why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 I agree that calling Rey a flippy guy is selling him criminally short. The subtitle was a tongue-in-cheek reference to jdw's post in the Punk thread. "He's just a flippy floppy guy." -WrestlingClassics What a stupid thing to say. Just for reference, in case it wasn't clear: That was a (paraphrased) statement by some crank on WrestlingClassics more than a half decade ago. He wasn't without supporters who thought the say thing. So please credit it to WC cranks. I like Rey. Suspect I saw and liked him before all but one or two posters on this board, and certainly have defended him against cranks over the past two decades. John Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that those were your actual sentiments. And that WC thread was a hoot and a half, especially the notion of Kurt Angle as the standard-bearer of wrestling based more on psychology than risky highspots. Anyway, I want to go back to Dylan's statement about Rey being one of the top five workers in the world right now. I don't disagree, and it really is incredible how well he's been able to adapt to his increasing physical limitations. But that ranking is also a reflection of how drastically the bar has been lowered over the past decade or so. In fact, I might even go so far as to say that from an overall standpoint, wrestling right now is as bad as it's ever been. If you took 2011 Rey and stuck him in, say, 1993, would he still be a top five worker? Or even top 25? Rey is definitely an all-time great. But I wouldn't put him in the GOAT conversation. Then again, I don't think anyone who worked primarily in the US merits GOAT consideration except for Ric Flair. ETA: jdw sort of beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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