When is the right time to hang it up?

[NintendoLogic]

post-stroke Bret is still in better shape than Flair, Hogan, or even Nash for that matter. The sad truth is most wrestlers are junkies for the pop and won't quit unless they have a doctor tell them "one more match might kill you" like Edge had.

There's also the fact that for a lot of wrestlers, it's all they know how to do because it's all they've ever done. Manami Toyota has been wrestling since she was 16. What the fuck else is she going to do, go work on the Human Genome Project? This might not be the case as much in the future, though, since more people seem to be coming into the business with college degrees.

[El-P]

Garbage match worker Flair was entertaining. I would have had no problem seeing Flair work as Onita starting around 96/97 when his skills were clearly fading fast and going forward from there.

You mean as Cactus Jack, because Onita wasn't at all about falling from high places. I haven't seen any of Flair's garbage matches, but I don't feel like I would enjoy them in the least.

 

Terry Funk was a strange beast. The on/off nature of his stints sure helps. To me he looked really good until 1995. When he came back in 1997 in ECW, he was showing his age. I'm a Terry Funk mark, and I enjoyed pretty much everything I saw from him past that point, including the WCW stint, but Terry retiring in late 1995 would have been fine with me.

[cm funk]

Terry stooging entertains me to no end, still to this day. Hell, you could argue he did that for most of his career.

 

Chainsaw Charlie will forever be the funniest thing that wrestling has ever produced.

[Dylan Waco]

There is a shit load of good post-95 Terry Funk. I don't necessarily disagree that he was "showing his age" in 97, but going through the ECW footage it was clear he was still capable of really incredible things even at that point. Two of the matches we uncovered for that set were v. Sabu and Shane Douglas and were both great matches with Funk being out of this World in both.

[smkelly]

If Flair has retired in 2008, would people look back and say his timing was right?

Some people probably would, yeah. But I think his boots should have been hung up long before that. 2008 was like his 34th year in professional wrestling. How many other athletes can say their career spanned a period of time that long? Besides, when someone's career is older than most of the people around him, it is generally a good idea to move along. Flair could have been strictly a manager for the young and upcoming heels, like Dolph Ziggler. At any rate, a more appropriate retirement date would be when Flair stopped being Flair in the ring.

[El-P]

There is a shit load of good post-95 Terry Funk. I don't necessarily disagree that he was "showing his age" in 97, but going through the ECW footage it was clear he was still capable of really incredible things even at that point. Two of the matches we uncovered for that set were v. Sabu and Shane Douglas and were both great matches with Funk being out of this World in both.

Incredible, I wouldn't say that. Good, yes.

Which Sabu & Douglas matches exactly ?

[Dylan Waco]

The two that are on the set, that weren't on tv or a commercial release

[Al]

When is the right time to hang it up? Preferably before your matches look like this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2eWqyUvF4s

[Loss]

Seven or eight years ago when I was the smarkiest smark that ever smarked a smark, I would have said something ridiculous, like that no one over the age of 40 has any business wrestling because they need to pass the torch and step aside, and that even if they can still perform at a high level, they're hurting the business by going on. Now, I'm all for people continuing as long as they have something positive to contribute.

 

Wrestlers slow down as they get older, and if the fans are still into a wrestler, that can sometimes be disguised with good booking and using the older guys properly. When it gets to a point where no amount of booking in the world is going to disguise anything (a point guys like Flair and Hogan passed a looooooong time ago), it's past the time to hang 'em up.

 

Ideally, wrestlers would go out on top more often so we don't have to see them break down over time, but I also see the human side of it. In the U.S., if you were ever a star, promoters seem to treat you like a star for the rest of your life, no matter how long it's been and how much the world has changed since the big run. It's foolish to leave big money on the table because of dedication to the art form, when most people who run pro wrestling don't respect it anyway.

[Tim Evans]

I watch a lot of indy Lucha so you got guys like Negro Navarro and Solar who are great at 50+. On the other side are guys like Herodes and Sangre Chicana in Monterrey and can't even take a bump. The other day I was watching the Dos Caras 40th anniversary match and his brother Sicodelico couldn't even walk the ropes. Granted it was only a one match deal but he shouldn't have been in the ring. Konnan's another one.

[JerryvonKramer]

In my view, Konnan's a guy who should never has started in the first place. God, I hate that guy. Probably my all-time least favourite wrestler right now bar none.

 

By the way, is it just me or does Hogan -- superficially speaking -- still look in pretty good shape? I mean I know he can barely walk, but the dude is still stacked brother! Still got those 24-inch pythons.

 

I guess if Vince could get ripped at the age he was, anyone can.

 

I think the MX vs. RnR video above brings up a good point though: how many guys didn't retire but just kept working indies? HTM, Jake, Greg, aren't they all still out there? The only difference with Flair is that he's doing it on national TV. Do you think any of those other guys would turn down the same spot? Course they wouldn't.

 

Bob Dylan's still touring at 71, if there's still people willing to pay money, or if there's still someone who'll book you, then why not? A guy like Flair simply doesn't know anything else. Does he even have a life outside of wrestling anymore?

 

Here's what I don't understand though: WHY does he have to keep having matches? Why can't he have a non-wrestling role? I don't get that.

[smkelly]

Seven or eight years ago when I was the smarkiest smark that ever smarked a smark, I would have said something ridiculous, like that no one over the age of 40 has any business wrestling because they need to pass the torch and step aside, and that even if they can still perform at a high level, they're hurting the business by going on. Now, I'm all for people continuing as long as they have something positive to contribute.

 

Wrestlers slow down as they get older, and if the fans are still into a wrestler, that can sometimes be disguised with good booking and using the older guys properly. When it gets to a point where no amount of booking in the world is going to disguise anything (a point guys like Flair and Hogan passed a looooooong time ago), it's past the time to hang 'em up.

 

Ideally, wrestlers would go out on top more often so we don't have to see them break down over time, but I also see the human side of it. In the U.S., if you were ever a star, promoters seem to treat you like a star for the rest of your life, no matter how long it's been and how much the world has changed since the big run. It's foolish to leave big money on the table because of dedication to the art form, when most people who run pro wrestling don't respect it anyway.

I can understand all of your points, as they're good ones, but I always look at this kind of situation (Flair) more about the physical implications at stake rather than someone being held back because an old man is getting fifteen minute main events. I've been talking about this in some indirect ways, but deaths in pro wrestling and all of the ugly things associated with the business troubles me sometimes. And the point I was making about Flair's lengthy career in comparison to other sports is that other professional athletes have done retired long before they get close to thirty-four years. Nolan Ryan, IIRC, holds the record with 27 years. His throwing arm was hurting him so bad for the last few seasons of his career and is largely why he retired. He was smart. Ric is not as fortunate. I have a problem when guys like him and Angle talk about "wanting to die in the ring." They've taken wrestling too seriously.

 

But guys like Lawler, I'm fine with seeing him on Raw or challenge for the WWE title. He is a good worker. He doesn't look as nearly bad as what Flair has since the night Nitro was on Raw. He doesn't look like the next back body drop will be his last (Though it might after being recently injured). And I know he can teach the young guys something. Ric can too, but there is no way that Flair should be in the kinds of matches or situations that TNA has him do. I mean, Ric is sixty-two. I guess my problem is that at age 62, Flair shouldn't be trying to be Young Flair and do all of his trademark up-down bumps for the face. But I think even sticking to a more amateur style would be better, but not if his heart condition is as bad as it has been made out to be. He looked physically ill in that match with Sting. He just came back from rotatory cuff surgery, which is not an easy injury to rehab, let alone, recover from very well at near modern senior citizen age.

 

I look at Terry Funk in largely the same kind of light after what he looked like on that one documentary. Seeing him do the hardcore style after that video of him getting out of bed was shot is often hard to watch. Like his match against Homicide, which is on a Schneider compilation. It was hard to watch that match. But Terry isn't going full schedule or trying to do a Terry Funk by-the-book nineties match either.

 

And this extends to guys like Misterio and Kobashi. The latter's body is just about gone and the former's body is severely damaged.

 

But yeah, if they don't have a laundry list full of debilitating injuries, don't have heart conditions, and aren't in excruciating pain that requires a dosage of pain killers that would kill a normal person, then yeah, I am all for them continuing their career and making money. But that hardly ever seems to be the case anymore. But I literally cannot fathom what kind of doctor that would medically clear someone like Flair or Misterio.

[El-P]

In my view, Konnan's a guy who should never has started in the first place. God, I hate that guy. Probably my all-time least favourite wrestler right now bar none.

Konnan is still one of the very worst wrestler I've ever seen. When you can't have a decent match with Juvy and Eddie in 96/97, you really are a worthless worker.

 

I guess if Vince could get ripped at the age he was, anyone can.

Yep. Until your heart explode, which is something I'm surprised didn't happen to Vince yet.

 

HTM, Jake, Greg, aren't they all still out there? The only difference with Flair is that he's doing it on national TV. Do you think any of those other guys would turn down the same spot? Course they wouldn't.

Exactly. Flair isn't better than those guys. He's just "Flair", so he gets to embarrass himself on TV for a reasonnable paycheck instead of looking like an old bozo on scrappy indies. Seriously, I don't even get why people would pay to see the HTM "work".

 

Bob Dylan's still touring at 71, if there's still people willing to pay money, or if there's still someone who'll book you, then why not? A guy like Flair simply doesn't know anything else. Does he even have a life outside of wrestling anymore?

That's a terrible analogy. Wrestling, despite what some may think those days, is still a "sport". Unless your voice is gone, you can sing until your death. I've seen the latest Nanni Moretti movie, "Habemus Papam" the other day, and Michel Picolli, 85, is an amazing actor. Old bluesmen can play until they lose their mind. Wrestling is still a sporting acivity, and at some point the body just isn't able to do it anymore. I don't care about psychology and such, when you are old and shot, psychology only goes a long way, you still look like an old dude slowly mimicking what you were doing before.

 

Here's what I don't understand though: WHY does he have to keep having matches? Why can't he have a non-wrestling role? I don't get that.

1/He's a mark for "Ric Flair"

2/People who book him, in that case TNA, are retards

[Al]

Here's a question for thought. Of the wrestler deaths, how many were caused by wrestlers hanging on too long? I can think of Misawa and Larry Latham. More often it seems like guys stop wrestling and then give out when they can't adjust to a non-athletic lifestyle (thinking guys like Johnny Grunge).

[Mad Dog]

I think the MX vs. RnR video above brings up a good point though: how many guys didn't retire but just kept working indies? HTM, Jake, Greg, aren't they all still out there? The only difference with Flair is that he's doing it on national TV. Do you think any of those other guys would turn down the same spot? Course they wouldn't.

Greg Valentine is still getting paid to do appearances for indies. Now, showing up for those dates, he tends to not do that.

 

On Flair, I think when WCW went under would have been a good time for him to go out. He had trouble getting through that Last Nitro match with Sting. He was pretty scary to watch during that WWE run. I remember some random match where he busted his face open on the ropes really bad. He's a decade past the point of having a positive contribution to wrestling. But he's probably going to die in the ring at some obscure indy show like Moondog Spot did.

 

Now, I think there's a different track you can take. HHH, I think HHH is at the point where he should retire. He has nothing positive left to contribute to the WWE as a promotion and he's not moving on to a different company. I think if he was smart, he would retire because his continuing to be an active inring guy would be counter-productive to the company.

 

Guys I think got out at the right time are the Rock, Randy Savage, Arn Anderson and Shawn Michaels. I think I would be willing to still put Sting on that list if he hangs it up for good after this TNA run. He's still contributing in the ring, minus the Flair match but what could he have done? But Sting seems to be a guy that's adjusted well to his limitations as he's gotten older.

[Mad Dog]

2/People who book him, in that case TNA, are retards

I'm going to slightly defend TNA here. At least TNA has been smart enough to not hand over a big cash advance unlike some companies. *coughRoHcoughcough*

[FLIK]

And this extends to guys like Misterio and Kobashi. The latter's body is just about gone and the former's body is severely damaged.

On that note, I couldn't believe what a total idiot Rey was the past few months. Knew full well his leg was screwed and he was going to have to take time off, just HAD to wrestle a few more matches anyways for no good reason and then messed his leg up worse trying to do a baseball slide or something. Zero sympathy for the guy after hearing about all that.

 

Guys I think got out at the right time are the Rock, Randy Savage, Arn Anderson and Shawn Michaels.

Arn's a bad example, same thing hapened to him that happened to Edge, neck problems got bad enough that he had no choice in the matter and had to stop.

[Mad Dog]

On that note, I couldn't believe what a total idiot Rey was the past few months. Knew full well his leg was screwed and he was going to have to take time off, just HAD to wrestle a few more matches anyways for no good reason and then messed his leg up worse trying to do a baseball slide or something. Zero sympathy for the guy after hearing about all that.

Bret Hart did the same thing. People jump all over themselves to try and pin the blame on Goldberg that they ignore the fact that Hart wrestled 3 or 4 matches after he got that concussion.

[khawk20]

Rick Martel had his career curtailed by injury, but came back for his run against Booker T in WCW long enough to make viewers realize that he could still go (before he got hurt again).

 

I suppose Martel could be looked at as an example of someone that realized they should stop/cut back a lot when their injuries began to pile up and get worse in scope. In his case, the right time to hang 'em up was when his body told him to...and he listened.

[Mad Dog]

Arn's a bad example, same thing hapened to him that happened to Edge, neck problems got bad enough that he had no choice in the matter and had to stop.

I disagree. Not everyone listens when their body tells them they need to stop.

[El-P]

Rick Martel had his career curtailed by injury, but came back for his run against Booker T in WCW long enough to make viewers realize that he could still go (before he got hurt again).

 

I suppose Martel could be looked at as an example of someone that realized they should stop/cut back a lot when their injuries began to pile up and get worse in scope. In his case, the right time to hang 'em up was when his body told him to...and he listened.

I don't remember hearing Martel first quiting because of injuries. I know he was involved in real estate as soon as the early 90's, and he was only doing wrestling at this point as a support for his other business.

His WCW was cut short because Harlem Heat are poor workers. Got a concussion from Booker T. Then fucked his knee because of Booker T again. Then a few months later after surgery, first match back against Stevie Ray, he tries to protect his brand new knee and got fucked again by Ray's finisher. Then called it quit. But yeah, Martel was smart.

 

Guys quiting when they should have include DiBiase, Santana, Rotundo, Windham... In the 00's, JBL comes to mind.

[sek69]

The brief mention of lucha reminded me how amazing it is that guys like Mil, Canek, and Dos Caras Sr. all still pop up from time to time and don't seem to look nearly as deteriorated/horrible as oldtimers in the US or Japan. Granted, lucha has the advantage of being able to hide older guys in multiple man tag matches, but it doesn't seem their legends fall apart at the same rate.

[smkelly]

And this extends to guys like Misterio and Kobashi. The latter's body is just about gone and the former's body is severely damaged.

On that note, I couldn't believe what a total idiot Rey was the past few months. Knew full well his leg was screwed and he was going to have to take time off, just HAD to wrestle a few more matches anyways for no good reason and then messed his leg up worse trying to do a baseball slide or something. Zero sympathy for the guy after hearing about all that.

Agreed. Though I wonder how much influence came from behind the scenes a la Angle at WM19.

 

On that note, I couldn't believe what a total idiot Rey was the past few months. Knew full well his leg was screwed and he was going to have to take time off, just HAD to wrestle a few more matches anyways for no good reason and then messed his leg up worse trying to do a baseball slide or something. Zero sympathy for the guy after hearing about all that.

Bret Hart did the same thing. People jump all over themselves to try and pin the blame on Goldberg that they ignore the fact that Hart wrestled 3 or 4 matches after he got that concussion.

 

I've held that notion for quite some time. Though Goldberg gets his just deserts for being a mule of a worker, rightfully so. He had a hard time understanding that pro wrestling was a work. But when Goldberg got a taste of his own medicine by Regal, it was Regal that got canned.

 

And Bret's excuse of not knowing any better, or that because of his concussion that he didn't know he was hurt, I've always found that to be somewhat naive and probably an outright lie. To think that Bret *never* had a concussion prior to his match with Goldberg is a foolish thought. If he could make his flights on time, be at the arena on time, he clearly had an inkling of conscious thought. He was probably trying to do what nearly every other pro wrestler has done when injured - think that they can overcome it.

 

Arn's a bad example, same thing hapened to him that happened to Edge, neck problems got bad enough that he had no choice in the matter and had to stop.

I disagree. Not everyone listens when their body tells them they need to stop.

 

And that's the problem. Since there are no regulations besides that from private doctors, wrestlers will keep plugging away until their joints are made of plastic, their necks are like toothpicks, and their brains become dementia like gray matter.

 

It is a sad truth about pro wrestling that has been largely protected from general public knowledge.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think it depends on the style of wrestling. Many of the WoS guys looked great in their 50s and so do a lot of the older luchadores. The reason for this, presumably, is because they weren't huge bumpers. There's a big difference between the mat workers who look great and guys like Pirata Morgan and Emilio Charles, Jr.

[Kostka]

There's never a right time to say good bye.