Muppets on RAW

[Loss]

What was the point in posting that?

 

I didn't like it. I'm not trying to convince anyone else that they shouldn't. I'm just posting that I don't.

 

If you don't like that people don't like WWE, don't read message boards. Same argument, right?

[Al]

Jim Henson's death really hurt the Muppets. He wasn't just a great innovator and puppeteer. He was a great performer. Looking back at the Muppet Show of the 70s, you get a really good repour amongst the Muppets you just can't see these days. Nowadays it feels like talented performers imitating the Muppets. Which is fine, but it's not the real thing.

 

I thought the show was entertaining enough. I watch Raw about once a year, this one pulled me in. Obviously suspension of belief is required, but I feel wrestling has gone so far off the deep end that it hardly seems to matter anymore. They didn't do anything that had me wincing as far as credibility.

 

I do see people complaining about Cena/Miz/R-Truth. People aren't going to buy Survivor Series because they think Miz/R-Truth are an unbeatable force. They're buying it for the novelty of the Rock. It really doesn't matter who they put in on the other side.

[Bix]

I think it depends on who's involved in the creative process. The Muppet Studios YouTube stuff was largely excellent.

[jdw]

I still love the same people that complain about WWE every week yet still watch or my personal favorite the people that DON"T watch WWE and complain about it every chance they get. There is an answer for you people.

 

DON"T FUCKING WATCH THEIR TELEVISION.

I suspect that most folks don't. There's a reason the WWE's business is down from the salad days: they've driven off many of their fans.

 

That said...

 

This is all a very old conversation. It's the same statement that people like RYDER tossed at us when we watched and were critical of WCW under Russo:

 

"If you don't like it, don't watch it!"

 

And that Mr. Schemer tossed at us when we were critical of poor things that ECW did:

 

"If you don't like it, don't watch it!"

 

And that SKeith and other WWF Hardcores use to toss at us when we thought the WWF in 1996-97 did a lot of batshit crazy ass stuff (Fake Diesel & Fake Razor, anyone?):

 

"If you don't like it, don't watch it!"

 

Well... that's a really useless statement.

 

We all in life are critical of certain things that we don't:

 

* stop watching

* stop doing

* stop being a part of

* stop talking about

 

I think there are issues in the country, like why our troops are still overseas in massive numbers.

 

"If you don't like the U S of God Bless America, get the fuck out!"

 

I kind of think that UGA's football team has been spinning it's wheels for the past few years, and not for any really good reasons.

 

"If you don't like watching UGA, turn the fucking TV!"

 

I kind of think that season 2 of Justified was inconsistent and disappointing relative to a very strong season 1.

 

"If you don't like Justified anymore, stop wasting your time on it and watch something you like!"

 

I'm not terribly happy with Manchester United's defensive line, they haven't don't a good job of dealing with central midfield, and that tactically they probably have regressed in the past three years.

 

"If you don't like ManU, find another team to root for!"

 

I'm rather annoyed to come into work this morning, pop into my office, see the booklet for the company's benefits program for the next year dropped on my chair, and eyeball it seeing that the employee share of the package has gone up at a higher rate than the salaries of _anyone_ in the company.

 

"If you don't like working here, get the fuck out!"

 

I'm kind of annoyed that my Mom was working the guilt trip on me coming down at the end of October when I'm going down there for two weekends in November, and staying an extend time on one of them.

 

"If you don't like your folks, get some new ones!"

 

Look... we are humans. We think critically. We complain about a lot of shit. An Unfucking Believable Amount Of Shit. Anyone here who claims that they don't is not being truthful. We complain about a lot of things that we actually like / enjoy / love. Everyone of us who is a sports fan has gone through stretches where we've complained every bit as much about out teams as folks on here talk critically of the WWE.

 

Kris: if you thought back from 1985-90 that the Braves where a horrid team and you thought and talked about ways that they could (i) stop being so embarrassingly shitty, and (ii) could become a contender... it didn't mean that you weren't a Braves Fan. You were just a kid being honest that they weren't good, thought about how they could be better, and wished that they would become better. You would have been a baseball fan, and wanted your team to do better.

 

We Are Wrestling Fans

 

We follow wrestling. We'd kind of like the "local promotion" not drive us out of our fucking mind. If it does, we, like fans of a sports team, are highly likely to say that something was bad.

 

Unless the alternative is to be myopic fans like Raiders Fan who every year thinks they're a Super Bowl Contender.

 

 

John

[KrisZ]

First off Loss, that wasn't directed at you or really anyone in particular on here it was a general statement of stuff I see on various wrestling boards and Twitter and it just irks me. Should I have posted what I posted probably not but I just get sick of seeing the same people bitching and bitching and bitching and bitching about it that it got to me because if I was so upset about something I would just quit watching it or whatever.

 

Case in point, I used to listen to a lot of the WON audio shows but they have become such bullshit lately with the same old bitching and whatever then other things that I don't care to hear about, I did the best thing for me and that was to quit clicking on the links and listening to them.

 

Hey I love being critical of stuff but when it starts sounding like a broken record and when you come off like you are being held at gunpoint to watch a TV show, it's time for a change.

[khawk20]

According to the Observer website, Raw did a 3.1 last night.

 

The question becomes whether the Muppets (a) turned people off from watching, lowering the rating, (b ) drew viewers in, saving what would have been a rock-bottom rating and huge panic in the office, or (c ) drew nobody extra at all, leaving the WWE with their average rating for Raw.

 

(Plus no bump from a Rock appearance has to be concerning)

[KrisZ]

The excuse is going to be Halloween and whether that's right or not is debatable but there was very little Twitter activity last night with the only trending topic on the show being Statler and Waldorf with 5 minutes left in the show.

[Loss]

I think it's pretty clearly Halloween. It's not a night when most people are at home.

[Dylan Waco]

I think it's possible the Muppets cancelled themselves out. I know they drew in some non/casual fans - I spoke to several myself and while that is anecdotal I think it would be far less likely that the people I know are an aberration, than to suggest they were reflective of some general trend. On the other hand I think the combination of it being Halloween and the Muppets being there may have hurt with enough regular viewers to equalize things.

 

On a side ratings note that makes me very happy, since Mark Henry won the World Title Smackdown has had a 2.0 rating or higher four of five weeks (the other was a 1.95) and has had three of it's four highest rated shows of the year

[Jingus]

I don't get how WWE Superstars interacting with the Muppets is much more of a kayfaybe/suspension of disbelief killer than Slick going into the Deepest, Darkest Africa to get Akeem. Or say, The Undertaker's soul floating above the ring at Royal Rumble. Or every invisible camera backstage skits you have to suffer through since 2000. Doesn't mean it's necessarily good, as all the example above are pretty stupid, but it's not anything ground breaking either.

Yeah. Or evil doll Chucky coming to WCW, or Santino biting into a magic Slim Jim that transforms people, or Hornswoggle painting a door on a wall and then running through it Road Runner style, or any of the big stupid stunts which would've instantly killed the participants if it happened in a real-life setting, or any guy who has a spooky gimmick complete with occult superpowers. Kermit & Co. look downright classy and restrained next to some of that stuff.

[Loss]

The difference is that people pretty universally pan those things, but are saying this was awesome. I love the Muppets and grew up watching them myself, so I get the appeal and I understand why people enjoyed it. There has probably been other stuff just as bad. But Vickie Guerrero thinking Miss Piggy was a real person and arguing with her while Jack Swagger made threats to Kermit was too much for me.

[jdw]

The Halloween will be interesting in terms of the demos. It's a 9-11 show on a School Night. I think a lot of Kids would be done with trick-or-treat by then. People going out to parties wouldn't, but I think the high school age ones would be due to school the next day. College and older... well that of course is different. We were always more than willing to go to class the next day hungover.

 

There may be some strong DVR movement. It seems like Nielsen and the networks have gotten that Live+1 isn't a worthwhile number anymore given how people DVR and watch. There's a move to Live+7 this season.

 

Anyway, Raw may pick up some viewers that way, especially in the drinking & partying crowd.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I can see how someone wouldn't like it, especially someone who primarily watches older footage these days. In the modern WWE context I didn't think it was out of place at all. Whether that is a good or bad thing I don't know. The show was entertaining to me.

[jdw]

BTW... is it a bit strange to do the Muppets on Halloween Night? It opens 11/23/11. Survivor Series is 11/20/11. Perhaps not a huge rush to have it this week, unless the Muppets are booked elsewhere next Monday on the press tour for the movie.

 

John

[KrisZ]

I think the Muppets on Halloween made sense because they are the Muppets plus if the show was a flop then Halloween could be blamed.

[jdw]

Just was thinking that if you're going to draw Muppet Fans (i.e. mostly kids), is Halloween Night the best night for it?

 

Even tossing out the "Raw is at 9:00 and kids are done trick-or-treating" comment, I don't know how many kids are fired up on Halloween Night to see the Muppets. My neighbors with a pair of 6-9 year old kids got back around 10 (by car so they weren't roaming the streets but out elsewhere like the grandparents)... change out of costumes... work on going through the candy... School Night. Ideal night for it?

 

I doubt the WWE invested in the Muppets to intentionally have it fail and dog the ratings. They gave it a massive pr push.

 

John

[Al]

I think it's pretty clearly Halloween. It's not a night when most people are at home.

I think so too. My girlfriend and I went grocery shopping, it was downright deserted.

[Bix]

Muppet Fans (i.e. mostly kids)

Really? In 2011? Muppet Babies has been gone from TV for many years and will likely never be on DVD. The Muppet Show hasn't been on TV since it was on Odyssey when Odyssey existed and is just available in various DVD releases. They haven't had a TV series in 13 years and a movie in 12. Right now they're a nostalgia act for pop culture junkies and the new movie (written by a pop culture junkie) is being marketed heavily to adults as a celebration of the franchise.

 

I have no idea if there are still Sesame Street News segments with Kermit (the only character who overlaps between the Muppet Show and Sesame Street Muppets). If they do I guess little kids could be pretty familiar with him. But Piggy, Fozzy, etc? Not how things are now. At least Fraggle Rock is on Netflix streaming.

[Coffey]

I feel like I should say something since I watched the show but I'm not sure what to say. I had company over & honestly talked through the majority of the show, but the parts I watched were entertaining. The Muppets are funny. I won't argue that they're pretty much a nostalgia act for me but that is what I wanted, what I expected & what I got. The company allowed me to tune out Michael Cole for the night & that really helped my enjoyment of the show.

 

The night seemed to me as if it was sort of booked like a show where WWE didn't think a lot of people would be watching. There were a lot of non-title matches and some stuff which wasn't particularly "fresh" if you know what I mean. like Dolph/Ryder again. I thought the Muppet segments were fine. I wasn't thinking the whole time about how it was silly, or broke kayfabe or trying to compare it to Robocop or any of that. If something wasn't particularly noteworthy to me, then I just tuned the show out, focused on my company, and let the television become background noise.

 

I will say though that AJ looked adorable as Kitana from Mortal Kombat. That is one beautiful woman.

[Bix]

Also, I really should've quoted TomK earlier than this:

 

"Memphis TV show was really straight forward in presenting itself as a TV show. This wasn’t a taped wrestling show in a studio but rather a TV show with a set format announced at the beginning of each show. Time had been set aside for interviews, individual matches, etc. Often times guys fuck up the format as guy will interrupt something that had been set aside for something else. Lance Russell is stuck in position of put-upon Kermit the Frog trying to run a smooth TV show if it wasn’t for these crazy Muppets."

[jdw]

Muppet Fans (i.e. mostly kids)

Really? In 2011? Muppet Babies has been gone from TV for many years and will likely never be on DVD. The Muppet Show hasn't been on TV since it was on Odyssey when Odyssey existed and is just available in various DVD releases. They haven't had a TV series in 13 years and a movie in 12. Right now they're a nostalgia act for pop culture junkies and the new movie (written by a pop culture junkie) is being marketed heavily to adults as a celebration of the franchise.

 

I have no idea if there are still Sesame Street News segments with Kermit (the only character who overlaps between the Muppet Show and Sesame Street Muppets). If they do I guess little kids could be pretty familiar with him. But Piggy, Fozzy, etc? Not how things are now. At least Fraggle Rock is on Netflix streaming.

 

 

Theatrical and telefilms

The Muppet Movie (1979)

The Great Muppet Caper (1981)

The Muppets Take Manhattan (1984)

The Muppet Christmas Carol (1992)

Muppet Treasure Island (1996)

Muppets from Space (1999)

It's a Very Merry Muppet Christmas Movie (2002)

The Muppets' Wizard of Oz (2005)

The Muppets (2011)

 

Kermit still appears on Sesame Street, thought nearly all of it is pre-2000 stuff.

 

Several other direct to video. Christmas special a couple of years ago.

 

Go to Amazon to see what's available. Muppet Show is out. Loads of video/dvd. It all depends on what parents buy their kids. We all know kids are going to want to watch what's current and cool. But there was enough initial demand to do the first three seasons of the show. It stalled out in 2008. I haven't googled why they stalled it out, but possibly the general decline in DVD sales and also that by 2009 they had some idea that they were going to do the movie. It's a decent tie in after the movie to roll out the rest of the series. Looks like the last movie was one of the things to start the first three seasons getting out.

 

There are a decent amount of Muppet toys out there. Most of it Kermit, but he's always been the Bugs level draw of the group.

 

I don't think that Muppets big draw when the movie comes out is going to be in your age group or mine, Bix. It probably isn't going to hurt that folks in our age groups (and in between) would be happy to take their kids to it. But my guess is that they'll be targeting kids in general.

 

John

[El-P]

The difference is that people pretty universally pan those things, but are saying this was awesome.

I understand your point. Rick Steiner menacing Chucky was one of the most retarded thing ever.

That said, it's a different case simply because it's the Muppets. Muppets are cool by definition, so people are willing to accept the fact that hell, it's a Muppet episode of Raw, and should be seen as such.

 

But Vickie Guerrero thinking Miss Piggy was a real person and arguing with her while Jack Swagger made threats to Kermit was too much for me.

Maybe in execution it came off as stupid as Chucky, I have no idea since I didn't watch after all. And maybe the fact that it's the Muppet just makes it an automatic double standart. But since I think every backstage skits with the invisible camera have been pretty much an embarrassment and one of the reason I can't stand the modern WWE format, having the Muppets thrown in the usual idiocy wouldn't change much for me, except maybe make it a little bit funny for once. So I can get why people who don't mind WWE format loved it.

[El-P]

And let's be fair to Alvarez, I'm listening to the November 1st show, he did say that he thought Smackdown was awesome this week with really good wrestling and really good promos. I don't see the blind WWE hate at all, he puts over tons of WWE stuff too.

[Al]

Go to Amazon to see what's available. Muppet Show is out. Loads of video/dvd. It all depends on what parents buy their kids. We all know kids are going to want to watch what's current and cool. But there was enough initial demand to do the first three seasons of the show. It stalled out in 2008. I haven't googled why they stalled it out, but possibly the general decline in DVD sales and also that by 2009 they had some idea that they were going to do the movie. It's a decent tie in after the movie to roll out the rest of the series. Looks like the last movie was one of the things to start the first three seasons getting out.

I actually think it has to do with music distribution rights. It took FOREVER to get season three out. All those songs that they perform need clearances. From what I've heard it's a huge pain in the ass to get them. WWE can cover up music in their dvd releases and not destroy the overall product. The muppets don't have that luxury.

[Matt D]

I WISH we'd get the other seasons. Granted, my kid loves the muppets, but that's because we showed him what episodes were available. He loves Buster Keaton and Laurel and Hardy stuff too. It's mainly his own folly for having a parent that's not just going to let him watch Johnny Test or whatever.