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Who is the worst booker ever?


JerryvonKramer

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As for Sullivan, he's the guy that thought it was a cool idea to book Bill Dannenhauer as his dyslexic brother "Evad Sullivan", he's also the guy that rubbed so many people the wrong way that four of WCW's most talented stars quit following his promotion to head booker in 2000. Think about Sullivan's creations as a booker - the Dungeon of Doom was a colossal failure, given that none of it's members were particularly over and that the main angle revolved around a terrible feud that Sullivan had begun with Hulk Hogan.

He was also booking during 96 and 97.

 

Word. It's funny Sullivan still gets shit for 2000 while everyone still tend to forget Sullivan booked the best Nitro years ever. I guess it's a syndrome of "oh, the Radicalz left because of Sullivan", which is something I never got anyway. Who pushed Dean and Eddie with titles reigns galore in 96-97 ? Who made Chris Benoit look like a star while he was having an affair with his own wife ? I mean, when did Sullivan tried to bury Benoit, Eddie or Dean at any point ? He's the one who pushed them and made strong undercard figure, and even a little more than this with Benoit. The Radz freakout out when Sullivan got the book back because of Benoit & Nancy, but in reality I don't believe Sulli would have buried any of them, he's too smart for that. Then when they left he found a depleted company robbed of its two best workers and the rest of it was turned into a freak show by months of Russo booking. Not easy to follow through when you're burned out anyway.

Yes, Sullivan also did book some shitty stuff, but he also had to deal with Bischoff getting ear-fucked by Nash & co and Hogan being a bitch with his creative control power. With WCW in 96/97, Sullivan can be credited for booking the hottest period ever in the company and the basis of one of the hottest period in wrestling. Everyone gets burned out after a while, by 1998 Sullivan wasn't so good anymore and the inmates run the asylum at this point.

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He also took WCW back a step by trying to push the oldest guys in the company as the top stars,

What young guys were left to push? He put the belt on Benoit before him and the other three took off. Rey was injured and Russo ran off most of the luchadores. He did a lot to push Vampiro and the Wall up the card, he repackaged Silver King and El Dandy. He did what he could with what was left. I don't think anyone could of done anything with WCW in that state.

 

Agreed. The company looked like a toxic waste after three months of Russo.

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Exactly how far up the totem pole was Sullivan in WCW during the peak years? By all accounts, that place was a madhouse, with far too many chiefs and not enough indians. Seems like there were always a dozen different people making storyline decisions at any given time.

 

Also the nWo reunion was a perfectly solid idea. They had a pretty good long term plan, before the scrapped it to make Hogan a face and Flair a heel.

Considering how quickly the ratings and especially the buyrates fell into the toilet, it's safe to say that the fans hated that idea. The nWo were beyond played out, and the crowds were largely sick of the whole thing. And why should we have had any faith that WCW could actually book an nWo storyline to full completion, with the black-and-white actually losing the blowoff? Hell, the company had a proven track record of doing the exact opposite.

 

It's funny Sullivan still gets shit for 2000 while everyone still tend to forget Sullivan booked the best Nitro years ever. I guess it's a syndrome of "oh, the Radicalz left because of Sullivan", which is something I never got anyway.

No, it's genuinely because the Sullivan 2000 era sucked that hard.

 

Who pushed Dean and Eddie with titles reigns galore in 96-97 ? Who made Chris Benoit look like a star while he was having an affair with his own wife ?

All of which was treated like a meaningless sideshow compared to the old guys on top. I understand why the Rads and others were frustrated, when they looked over at the competition and saw guys like Shawn and Bret getting pushed to the top. Benoit & Co. knew damn well that WCW in its current state was never going to do the same thing. Almost all of the top stars were guys who'd already been top stars for years if not decades, and WCW showed zero interest in elevating anyone younger (except Giant, but that's different).

 

As for thinking Sullivan was gonna bury them especially hard in 2000? Well, no, that probably wasn't gonna happen. (Not like Russo was doing a hell of a lot with any of them besides Benoit at that point anyway.) From what I've seen, I think they were just so sick of WCW in general that they were all ready to leave no matter what. Having the new boss being replaced by the same old boss was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

Agreed. The company looked like a toxic waste after three months of Russo.

Except, Russo actually did a better job of booking that same crew of guys in the first month after he and Bischoff returned than Sullivan did during the entire time he was in charge. I'm not kidding, I genuinely think that Sullivan's 2000 run was worse than most of the crap that Russo did before or after. (Most, not all; in terms of lowest of lows, Arquette and Russo holding the belt probably beat any of the crap that Sullivan booked.) Kevin's ideas were so stale, it seemed like he had no idea how to put together a show anymore. Like it wasn't even the same guy who was lead booker in '96.

 

How much do people blame Hogan for what happened in WCW? Does he deserve some blame or is he just the victim of terrible management?

Hogan takes a lot of the blame, because he was basically one of the bookers for his entire run. The most terrible thing management ever did to him was agree to give him that Creative Control clause in his contract. Shit like the awful Ultimate Warrior feud was entirely his baby.
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How much do people blame Hogan for what happened in WCW? Does he deserve some blame or is he just the victim of terrible management?

Come on now. Hogan fucked over WCW as much as anyone. He helped them oin the short run, especially when he turned heel, but in the long run Hogan surey contributed to kill the company. Starrcade 97 + the Evil Promo after Souled Out killed Sting dead. The Fingerpoke of Doom reset the company two years back. Not to mention his ridiculous merchandise contract. Hogan fucked WCW really bad and the balance of positive/negative he brought to the company is way on the negative side.

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Who pushed Dean and Eddie with titles reigns galore in 96-97 ? Who made Chris Benoit look like a star while he was having an affair with his own wife ?

All of which was treated like a meaningless sideshow compared to the old guys on top.

Not true. They were a very important part of the undercard. Of course, after a while the nWo took too much space, and things were never gonna change, but let's be realistic for a moment, does anyone think Perry Saturn or Dean Malenko deserved to be main eventers *anywhere* ? Even Benoit, I never really thought he was a guy that should be put on top except for some transitionnal stuff, he just didn't had the charisma or promo ability to do it. Eddie was the only one who had the star potential (like it was showed in WWE eventually). Of course WCW didn't make any new main event stars, but they did make a lot of upper-mid card names. If they were just a meaningless sideshow, I don't think they would have been seen as any big deal coming to WWF. Same thing for Rey. Yes, he was never pushed to the top by WCW, which was stupid, but he didn't became a star in WWF from nowhere, he was already a "star" in WCW.

 

I understand why the Rads and others were frustrated, when they looked over at the competition and saw guys like Shawn and Bret getting pushed to the top. Benoit & Co. knew damn well that WCW in its current state was never going to do the same thing. Almost all of the top stars were guys who'd already been top stars for years if not decades, and WCW showed zero interest in elevating anyone younger (except Giant, but that's different).

Well, they made Goldberg. Nash & Hogan had to kill him off.

Of course their frustration was understandable, but in hindsight, did Dean Malenko and Perry Saturn had their best years in WCW or WWF ? The answer is pretty clear.

I'm not defending Sullivan's booking in 2000, I'm just saying the idea that the Radz left because they were afraid they would get buried was a bit ridiculous.

I'll have to check Sullivan's 2000 at one point, because my memorie is very fuzzy. I'm not sure I was watching very much at that time, Russo drove me out of town 6 months after driving me out of WWF.

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Kevin Sullivan is similar to Dusty Rhodes in that both have had really good and really bad booking runs. In both cases, the problem was that they needed a break at the end of their most successful run that never came. 3+ years is a really long time to handle the stress associated with being a booker.

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But my point was that was that it wasn't Hogan's fault that management gave him way way way too much power?

 

I mean Vince in 93 didn't put up with that BS for long and he was out the door. Sure he massively pandered to Hogan's ego in the 84-91 run -- specifically total and utter bullshit like winning the 1990 Rumble when he was already champ rather than let someone like Perfect get the rub.

 

But some of the crap in WCW reached absurd levels. Pre-NWO even, what the hell was that 8 vs 2 match against the Dungeon of Doom? I don't see why they gave ANYone "creative control". If both WCW and WWF say "no, you can have money, but the final decision is ours" then it's a choice between working or not. I'll never understand how that nonsense came about. Of course no one wants to job and look bad. Of course Hogan is going to think that it's best for his character if he never gets pinned.

 

It's like giving a contract to a footballer which says "you can pick and choose which matches you're going to play in", that's never going to work. This is what I was talking about terrible management.

 

Who do you blame there? The footballer for exercising his contracted "right" or the person who gave him the contract?

 

Hogan is only ever going to have Hogan's interests at heart, he's an employee, not a booker, not an excutive.

 

If your employer tells you you can take 3 hours for lunch and you do it every day and it's written into your contract and you take 3 hour lunches every day, is it your fault?

 

I don't want to defend Hogan in 97-99 here, but I'm just saying you can see why he was like he was. I mean they gave Lanny Poffo a $150,000 contract AND inducted Angelo Poffo into their Hall of Fame, because Savage insisted on it in the terms of his contract. Who gives an employee that sort of power?

 

What if they don't give Savage that sort of deal? Is WWF going to take Savage back when Vince thought he was done and they are making fun of him in skits? Probably Savage doesn't get a job in New York, so if WCW played a bit more hardball they didn't need to bend over and take it from every star. Certainly not from Savage and not to the same extent they did with Hogan.

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Not true. They were a very important part of the undercard. Of course, after a while the nWo took too much space, and things were never gonna change, but let's be realistic for a moment, does anyone think Perry Saturn or Dean Malenko deserved to be main eventers *anywhere* ?

If they were given the right push at the right time and the right place? Sure, they could've taken that shot, at least once. The WWF was taking random dudes like Shamrock or Kane or or the Outlaws or Test or the Brood or the Hardys and turning them into shockingly popular stars, at least temporarily. They were willing to roll the dice on talent that looked like it might not have much potential, and sometimes able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. WCW was both unwilling and unable to do that.

 

Even Benoit, I never really thought he was a guy that should be put on top except for some transitionnal stuff, he just didn't had the charisma or promo ability to do it.

Considering he did just fine when they put the belt on him in the WWE, I'd say he had all the ability he needed.

 

Eddie was the only one who had the star potential (like it was showed in WWE eventually). Of course WCW didn't make any new main event stars, but they did make a lot of upper-mid card names. If they were just a meaningless sideshow, I don't think they would have been seen as any big deal coming to WWF. Same thing for Rey. Yes, he was never pushed to the top by WCW, which was stupid, but he didn't became a star in WWF from nowhere, he was already a "star" in WCW.

The point is that their level of talent didn't even matter. WCW had Stone Cold, Undertaker, Mankind, and Triple H; and mostly sat on them and didn't give any of them the chance they needed. Practically every one of the biggest stars in the industry went through WCW at some point or another, only to be ignored while Hogan spent twenty minutes on every Nitro bragging about how great he was. Whether you had the talent of Eddie Guerrero or the talent of Van Hammer, it would still be frustrating to know you were in an environment where you knew that you'd never be given a true chance to go all the way.

 

I'll have to check Sullivan's 2000 at one point, because my memorie is very fuzzy. I'm not sure I was watching very much at that time, Russo drove me out of town 6 months after driving me out of WWF.

The biggest ongoing feud was Sid versus the Harris brothers. Sullivan 2000 sucked.

 

 

EDIT: and Jerry, even if someone lets you break all the rules and be a selfish prick, you still know damn well that you're breaking all the rules and being a selfish prick. Hogan knew he was hurting WCW as a whole when he booked his storylines to make Hogan look good and bury all the others. He just didn't care. He would gladly make other people starve just so he could eat one more bite.

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But some of the crap in WCW reached absurd levels. Pre-NWO even, what the hell was that 8 vs 2 match against the Dungeon of Doom? I don't see why they gave ANYone "creative control". If both WCW and WWF say "no, you can have money, but the final decision is ours" then it's a choice between working or not. I'll never understand how that nonsense came about. Of course no one wants to job and look bad. Of course Hogan is going to think that it's best for his character if he never gets pinned.

This is true for just about every other wrestler ever. But Hogan already had plenty of money, and was happy doing bad TV at the time. WCW had to give him creative control or he would have never come in 1994.

 

Why they didn't try to eliminate that clause in his SECOND contract, I don't know. Bischoff already knew what kind of pain he was to deal with, and had to know when they were doing negotiations (according to Bischoff's book around August/September of 97) that WCW had all the leverage because Hogan wasn't going to want to go back to WWF, and couldn't get them to pony up the same guaranteed money. I suppose he could have just been worried about Hogan deciding to go home without creative control, thus losing the Hogan vs Sting match he'd been building for a year at that point.

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The sense I've gotten from Sullivan's shoot interviews is that he was more or less allowed to book the undercard how he see fit, but when it came to most of the top stuff he was just one voice of many and tended to be overruled or have his ideas changed by Hogan, Bischoff, Nash etc. Don't know how much of that is him trying to prop up his legacy and how much credit or blame he really deserves for things, but it jives with what other people have said about that time period. 96-98 WCW had a really hot undercard with good booking of the titles, so he probably should get some of the credit for that.

 

And yeah, I don't think you can really blame Sullivan for the Radicalz leaving. Those guys just wanted out and Sullivan became the excuse. Sullivan didn't want to lose them. Blame Bill Busch for just letting them walk right into the WWF.

 

Honestly, the last couple of years of WCW are kind of a blur to me and I haven't watched any of that stuff since it aired. I don't remember a lot about the Sullivan period, but I remember it being a nice change of pace after those first 3-4 months of Russo. Anything would have been better than that though. nWo 2000 seemed like a good idea and they were getting Goldberg back on track, then had their legs cut out from under them when Jarrett, Bret and Goldberg got hurt. Between all the injuries and defections and what Russo had left in place it really was a decimated roster.

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What are we arguing about ? That WCW never pulled the trigger when they should and that Hogan ruined any chance of mid-carder being elevated ? Of course. I think they were close to pull the trigger on Austin in 1994 though. He was getting closer and closer to the top of the cards. I believe eventually there would have been a Flair vs Austin passing the torch deal. I mean, they had Vader, who still ruled, Sting in his prime, Flair was past his prime, Steamboat was done, Rude was done, they didn't had many other options but to elevate younger workers at the time. Of course Hogan coming in killed it.

But really, to go back to Sulivan, a few awful months in 2000 can't erase two great money making years as far as WCW goes. There's no way he should be on a "worst booker ever" list.

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Has anyone ever explained why Russo seemingly got a lot more control than he had before around the end of '98? Just Vince being deluged with IPO stuff? Patterson was still around and had the power to serve as a filter, didn't he?

 

yeah always wanted to know this. The in ring time on RAW just plummets around September

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What are we arguing about ? That WCW never pulled the trigger when they should and that Hogan ruined any chance of mid-carder being elevated ? Of course. I think they were close to pull the trigger on Austin in 1994 though. He was getting closer and closer to the top of the cards. I believe eventually there would have been a Flair vs Austin passing the torch deal. I mean, they had Vader, who still ruled, Sting in his prime, Flair was past his prime, Steamboat was done, Rude was done, they didn't had many other options but to elevate younger workers at the time. Of course Hogan coming in killed it.

I'm probably alone here, but if it was between having the NWO and the Monday Night Wars and seeing what would have happened to the WCW that was building in 93-4, I'd take the latter every time.

 

There was still something distinctively NWA about that product, a real lineage back to Crockett and a real respect for "this great sport".

 

Hogan coming in changed all that almost overnight. We went from Spring Stampede (awesome) to Hogan vs. Brutus fucking Beefcake at Starrcade and Duggan squashing Austin in under 5 minutes.

 

I'd love to have seen a WCW where Hogan never arrives. Venutra probably would have stayed. Vader probably would have stayed. Hell, maybe we get some classic Bret Hart matches when he turns up. Probably WCW would still be around today in some shape or form. Who knows. I'd take 92 or 94 WCW over 96 or 97 WCW any day of the week. And I'm convinced there are a whole bunch of old rassling fans that Bischoff just killed dead in the water in 94 when Hogan came in. Not convinced those guys ever came back, not even during the Monday Night Wars. I'm talking about your old MSW fans, your old Crockett fans, your old Georgia fans. Bischoff and effectively all of WCW turned their back on those fans in 94.

 

It's a big "what if", but I still believe they were really building something there. It was a slow build, but they were moving in the right direction. Honestly, right now I'd take that over the big heel turn, Bash '96 and all the rest of it.

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I was just having this discussion yesterday actually. Can you imagine an old time JCP fan in late 1994 when the top heels in the company were Brutus Beefcake, Earthquake and Kevin Sullivan? It had to have been a point of no return for many

That's why ECW developed such a big buzz. The American hardcore fan had his home promotion taken away and needed a replacement.

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What are we arguing about ? That WCW never pulled the trigger when they should and that Hogan ruined any chance of mid-carder being elevated ? Of course. I think they were close to pull the trigger on Austin in 1994 though. He was getting closer and closer to the top of the cards. I believe eventually there would have been a Flair vs Austin passing the torch deal. I mean, they had Vader, who still ruled, Sting in his prime, Flair was past his prime, Steamboat was done, Rude was done, they didn't had many other options but to elevate younger workers at the time. Of course Hogan coming in killed it.

Whilst Austin should have definatley been elevated. I'm not sure if it would have happened even if Hogan never came in. Everyone knows about his problems with Bischoff and Hogan. But he also took alot of shots at Flair and Dusty too when he left. Which has kind of been downplayed or forgotten over the years.

 

I think Austin would have found himself in pretty much the same position Luger was in, in 89-90.

 

 

Has anyone ever explained why Russo seemingly got a lot more control than he had before around the end of '98? Just Vince being deluged with IPO stuff? Patterson was still around and had the power to serve as a filter, didn't he?

 

yeah always wanted to know this. The in ring time on RAW just plummets around September

 

 

My guess is that ratings were up. Summerslam pulled a monster buyrate and Russo had played a part in some of that. Vince delegating some power makes sense, especially if he's distracted with the IPO stuff and being a full time onscreen character.

 

It wouldn't be the first or last time that Vince has let the wrong person grab his ear.

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Whilst Austin should have definatley been elevated. I'm not sure if it would have happened even if Hogan never came in. Everyone knows about his problems with Bischoff and Hogan. But he also took alot of shots at Flair and Dusty too when he left. Which has kind of been downplayed or forgotten over the years.

 

I think Austin would have found himself in pretty much the same position Luger was in, in 89-90.

In late 93 / early 94 he, along with Dustin Rhodes, was still being talking about as "the wrestler of the 90s" and as a big future star. I mean Austin wasn't just there on the upper midcard, he was properly hyped.

 

I've got no reason to believe that they wouldn't have kept pushing him.

 

I don't see why they couldn't have had Austin in a new Horsemen in 94/5. Flair (world), Austin (US), Arn and Pillman (Tag). That's not a bad stable. At some point Austin is sick of being in the Tully role and wants a shot at the World title. Instant feud.

 

If Hogan doesn't come in, I see literally no reason for this not to happen.

 

Sting / Austin would have been great. Austin (face) vs. Flair (heel) backed by Arn and Pillman and possibly a turned Dustin Rhodes as the 4th Horseman.

 

By 96, he's a main eventer and a draw in his own right.

 

There's no reason either why Lex Luger and people like Savage wouldn't have come into WCW - and those would have been main event angles too. Maybe Luger / Austin as part of a wider Sting feud, while Flair / Savage is happening, then switch to Austin / Savage dream feud as we have Sting vs. Flair part 986.

 

Theoretically, Vader is still around too as a constant alternative main event heel.

 

Why wouldn't something like this have played out?

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I was thinking about this today, and while I would never, ever argue against Vince Russo being the worst booker in history, I do wonder if the Nitro formula devised by Kevin Sullivan wound up doing its own share of long-term damage to pro wrestling as we know it.

 

When Nitro started in 1995, Monday Night Raw featured far fewer competitive matches than it does now. It wasn't a total squashfest like the syndicated shows, but the format was far different from what we see now. Nitro changed that by upping the ante and airing more competitive matches, and rarely featured out and out squashes. The reason they were able to air so many competitive matches is because WCW signed so many people to contracts, really 200 or more wrestlers, that it would have taken years to burn certain matchups out, so they could run out fresh matches all over their TV.

 

WWF didn't have that luxury, because Vince from '95 to '97 could not afford to put together the kind of roster that could keep up with the Nitro formula. They had to drop the squash format, but with a smaller roster, there was a finite number of new matchups he could put on free TV before burning them out. If this was a war of attrition, WCW would have won, and I wonder if that was in part their strategy - wear out Vince by having an almost endless series of new matches every week for free on Nitro and later Thunder. It didn't work because WCW had a lot of other problems late in the 90's, but it seems like a good strategy in theory anyway.

 

But now we're in 2012. The Monday Night Wars raised the bar for what's acceptable on a prime time wrestling show. Stars need to be on every week. Most stars need to wrestle every week. Rare is the time where WWE doesn't have their top wrestlers in a match. And like the 90's, there is only a finite amount of matches the company can run before those matches become stale and harder to draw, which means WWE has to bring back old stars like Rock and Lesnar for major PPVs to draw buys on PPV. I don't want to let WWE off the hook for failing to make a single star in the past five years other than CM Punk, but at the same time, it's hard to not burn out big matches on PPV. This is how we get to Cena vs Big Show headlining on Sunday, and while I think they've done an OK job building to it, and I think the match will be great, it's going to be tough to draw any sort of buyrate.

 

The Nitro style of gunning for ratings and running big matches every week on free TV was definitely good for wrestling fans, but I'm not so sure it was good for the long-term health of wrestling.

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But my point was that was that it wasn't Hogan's fault that management gave him way way way too much power?

WCW agreed to terms to bring in Hogan. Hogan never did anything that he didn't have contractual power to do. Without a doubt, he had too much power, but had WCW not agreed to his terms, he never would have signed. Hogan brought both positives and negatives to WCW. So I do blame Bischoff for acquiescing, because Hogan had more influence than he should have. As long as he was drawing though, what was good for Hogan was usually good for WCW. When they became two different things, that's when there was a problem.

 

That said, while I don't blame Hogan as much as I blame Bischoff, that doesn't mean Hogan is blameless. It doesn't mean Nash is blameless. They played a part in WCW's decline in popularity. As a result, they killed what was a pretty good gig for themselves and others, and it had an impact all the way to the front office people who lost their jobs. It's perfectly reasonable to call them selfish while acknowledging that management let them get away with too much.

 

Consider this: Guys like Hiroshi Hase and Bill Dundee have booked themselves as midcarders during booking runs they've had, so the idea that anyone would do it is not quite true.

 

I mean Vince in 93 didn't put up with that BS for long and he was out the door. Sure he massively pandered to Hogan's ego in the 84-91 run -- specifically total and utter bullshit like winning the 1990 Rumble when he was already champ rather than let someone like Perfect get the rub.

Was that really a power play by Hogan? Perfect had gone around the horn on house shows with Hogan and was one of his worst-drawing opponents. Why would they give him a rub when he had just proven he couldn't draw on top? They were building toward Warrior and Hogan needed to be as strong as possible going into that match.

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FWIW, Dundee being a mid-carder while booking Mid-South was mandated by Watts since they felt that otherwise he would've booked himself on top in ridiculous situations. It's really the only territory he booked where him being on top wouldn't have made sense, though. He was already on top in Memphis, he needed to be a top guy in Chattanooga/GCW Superstars, he was the best worker in Kansas City during his run there and a good pick to groom Sam Houston, and in Knoxville/USACW he didn't book himself on top, IIRC.

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I mean Vince in 93 didn't put up with that BS for long and he was out the door. Sure he massively pandered to Hogan's ego in the 84-91 run -- specifically total and utter bullshit like winning the 1990 Rumble when he was already champ rather than let someone like Perfect get the rub.

Was that really a power play by Hogan? Perfect had gone around the horn on house shows with Hogan and was one of his worst-drawing opponents. Why would they give him a rub when he had just proven he couldn't draw on top? They were building toward Warrior and Hogan needed to be as strong as possible going into that match.

 

All I know is that Perfect was booked to win that Rumble for months until the night of the event.

 

If it wasn't a powerplay, why the late switch? Hogan could have suffered a screwy elimination and easily kept his heat. There's no good reason for Hogan to win. But then so guess they were never logical with booking the Rumble till 92. Dibiase should have gone over in 88, and Studd won.

 

I'm on my phone here so can't look it up but did Hogab win it in 91 as well? That's insane.

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