Who is the worst booker ever?

[SomethingSavage]

Exactly.

 

Besides, don't kid yourself. Guys like Gangrel and D'Lo Brown being really over had a lot more to do with it being a blazing hot era for wrestling & a lot less to do with Russo's ridiculous booking.

 

Koko B. Ware didn't have Russo booking him into love triangles in the 80's, but he sure as shit came across like a superstar.

 

Don't get me wrong. It's cool when those guys are given something to do. But it works best in moderation. When Russo starts scraping the bottom of the barrel - simply because he feels like everybody NEEDS to have an angle - then it's time to scale back and do much, much less.

[C.S.]

Complete bullshit. Mr. McMahon was a complete heel. Austin was a complete babyface (he saved Stephy from evil Taker, for fuck's sake). Mick Foley was total babyface. The Rock was total heel, then total babyface. DX were total babyfaces, the Nation were total heels. Taker was a babyface for the longest time, then turned heel. Every act that was really over on top was either heel of faces. You can go on and on. There was no actual "shades of grey". However, in the undercard, there was some confusion (as illustrated by the Venis vs Goldust feud), but it was irrelevant when you had the hottest act in 20 years on top, which were the biggest babyface in Austin feuding with the biggest heel McMahon basically.

Then the "complete bullshit" is McMahon's. He's the one who made the "shades of grey" speech (video above).

 

Plus, Austin was a babyface who acted like a heel. Ditto for Rock and a few others. That had never really been done on such a large level before, at least in the WWE.

 

Five years earlier, the Austin character would have been a heel, period.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Besides, don't kid yourself. Guys like Gangrel and D'Lo Brown being really over had a lot more to do with it being a blazing hot era for wrestling & a lot less to do with Russo's ridiculous booking.

 

Koko B. Ware didn't have Russo booking him into love triangles in the 80's, but he sure as shit came across like a superstar.

 

Don't get me wrong. It's cool when those guys are given something to do. But it works best in moderation. When Russo starts scraping the bottom of the barrel - simply because he feels like everybody NEEDS to have an angle - then it's time to scale back and do much, much less.

Koko B. Ware had a character. He had a mascot. He had a (very small) push. Did he have feuds? I can't remember. But even if he was the lowest man on the totem pole, he still mattered in a way Curtis Axel does not.

 

Vince Russo obviously didn't invent the concept of using every wrestler - that was the philosophy in the '80s too - but it got lost somewhere along the way, after Russo left, and it's been hurting the product ever since.

 

Even in the horrible mid-'90s, which was as far from hot as it gets, even minor acts like Duke "The Dumpster" Drose and Sparky Plugg were given more of a character, personality, and spot than most of today's lower card in the WWE, and the fans felt something for them.

[El-P]

Plus, Austin was a babyface who acted like a heel. Ditto for Rock and a few others. That had never really been done on such a large level before, at least in the WWE.

Five years earlier, the Austin character would have been a heel, period.

 

It has nothing to do with Russo, I don't even understand what you are arguing about anymore. Austin was a cool heel in an era where the audiences wanted to cheer cool heels, so he was turned babyface de facto by the audience. The same audiences who wanted to cheer for the nWo.

 

And if you want to argue about more complex characters, there's only one, really, in this period : Bret Hart. And it all happened before the Attitude Era (when Cornette was still in the booking team, mind you). And he was not about shades of grey, really, he was straight on about his beliefs which made him a heel in the US and a babyface in Canada. This is the only angle WWF ran which approached some level of "complex" characterization, which makes it the highest point of US pro-wrestling to me along with the early nWo angle, on an "artistic" level. Austin vs McMahon was tons of fun for the first few months (until the fall of 98) but was straight on babyface vs heel.

 

(As far as babyface acting like heels, Hulk Hogan was a complete shithead, kayfabe-wise)

[SomethingSavage]

Koko B. Ware had a character. He had a mascot. He had a (very small) push. Did he have feuds? I can't remember. But even if he was the lowest man on the totem pole, he still mattered in a way Curtis Axel does not.

 

I'm having trouble even following your side of the argument at this point.

 

I'm not sure what your hang-up is with Curtis Axel, but if you're trying to say that the lower guys aren't given anything to do these days - then please explain to me why the hell we have to see R-Truth interact with Tyler Breeze and Fandango every week. What about the Social Outcasts? And aren't they at least attempting to give the Colons some TV time? How about the way they lucked into that legitimately awesome run with 3MB and Hornswoggle from two years ago?

 

I don't know if you're just secretly angry about them not doing more with Axel or what, but if you're searching for examples of lower guys being given "something to do" - then you're simply not looking hard enough.

 

Also... So you agree with me about Ware then? Sure seems that way.

 

You were trying to use guys like Gangrel and D'Lo as shining examples that Russo's "give everybody something to do" deal will always work to get guys over. That's simply not the case. Most of the guys who were so incredibly over during the Attitude Era were benefiting from the time period - plain and simple.

 

Same as the big 80's boom, which is where a guy like Koko's name gets dropped in.

 

Even George "the Animal" Steele was given something substantial to do. On his last legs and unable to work a lick, even Steele got a mascot and merchandise. Russo wasn't around then. But the business was hot, and so Vince & company knew they could afford to spend more time and attention focusing on these lesser acts and their programs.

 

That's just the nature of the beast. When business is slow, then they're much more likely to care less about the lower guys and more about featuring the people capable of drawing them money up top.

 

For your argument about Russo's magic formula to hold any weight whatsoever, then you'd NEED to have some evidence of it ever working elsewhere - outside of the blazing hot Attitude Era and the careful watch of McMahon.

 

If Russo's "give everybody something to do" deal holds the Midas touch of booking, then why did it fail so miserably in WCW? Why aren't people raving about what a HUGE success the Misfits In Action were? I mean, after all - those guys were given SOMETHING TO DO. I mean, come on. Hugh G. Rection! Fat Chick Thriller! Janitor Jim Duggan! Canadian Jim Duggan! They're all doing SOMETHING, so they must be over! Right?!

 

There's always his five hundred runs in TNA. What mid-carders did he put on the map there? Who was more substantially over thanks to Russo's handling of them? A couple of decent examples were thrown out there - with Maple Leaf Muscle, Black Machismo, etc. - but almost all (if not entirely all) of those guys were basically just given joke gimmicks, and then they happened to make the most of it.

 

Same deal with Russo's Attitude Era, basically. A lot of trash and joke gimmicks were given out, but few of them got anyone over. The ones that managed to make chicken salad from his chicken shit were the ones that embraced their roles with sheer enthusiasm.

 

Even then - for every single Gangrel, D'Lo, or "Super Heavyweight" Holly Cousins - we'd get four or five doses of PMS, Meat, Beaver Cleavage, Religious Dustin Runnels, and other bullshit to wade through. It's hardly a winning record for Russo in ANY era - even his most successful. And I think that pretty much sums it up.

[C.S.]

It has nothing to do with Russo, I don't even understand what you are arguing about anymore. Austin was a cool heel in an era where the audiences wanted to cheer cool heels, so he was turned babyface de facto by the audience. The same audiences who wanted to cheer for the nWo.

I'm arguing that those characters fit into Vince McMahon's "shades of grey" speech. Five years earlier, Austin would not have been a babyface with that character.

 

 

And if you want to argue about more complex characters, there's only one, really, in this period : Bret Hart. And it all happened before the Attitude Era (when Cornette was still in the booking team, mind you). And he was not about shades of grey, really, he was straight on about his beliefs which made him a heel in the US and a babyface in Canada. This is the only angle WWF ran which approached some level of "complex" characterization, which makes it the highest point of US pro-wrestling to me along with the early nWo angle, on an "artistic" level. Austin vs McMahon was tons of fun for the first few months (until the fall of 98) but was straight on babyface vs heel.

 

(As far as babyface acting like heels, Hulk Hogan was a complete shithead, kayfabe-wise)

I wasn't arguing this at all, but I agree with you that Bret Hart's anti-U.S., pro-World character was incredible at the time and will likely never be replicated.

 

I'm having trouble even following your side of the argument at this point.

 

 

I'm not sure what your hang-up is with Curtis Axel, but if you're trying to say that the lower guys aren't given anything to do these days - then please explain to me why the hell we have to see R-Truth interact with Tyler Breeze and Fandango every week. What about the Social Outcasts? And aren't they at least attempting to give the Colons some TV time? How about the way they lucked into that legitimately awesome run with 3MB and Hornswoggle from two years ago?

 

I don't know if you're just secretly angry about them not doing more with Axel or what, but if you're searching for examples of lower guys being given "something to do" - then you're simply not looking hard enough.

 

Also... So you agree with me about Ware then? Sure seems that way.

 

You were trying to use guys like Gangrel and D'Lo as shining examples that Russo's "give everybody something to do" deal will always work to get guys over. That's simply not the case. Most of the guys who were so incredibly over during the Attitude Era were benefiting from the time period - plain and simple.

 

Same as the big 80's boom, which is where a guy like Koko's name gets dropped in.

 

Even George "the Animal" Steele was given something substantial to do. On his last legs and unable to work a lick, even Steele got a mascot and merchandise. Russo wasn't around then. But the business was hot, and so Vince & company knew they could afford to spend more time and attention focusing on these lesser acts and their programs.

 

That's just the nature of the beast. When business is slow, then they're much more likely to care less about the lower guys and more about featuring the people capable of drawing them money up top.

 

For your argument about Russo's magic formula to hold any weight whatsoever, then you'd NEED to have some evidence of it ever working elsewhere - outside of the blazing hot Attitude Era and the careful watch of McMahon.

 

If Russo's "give everybody something to do" deal holds the Midas touch of booking, then why did it fail so miserably in WCW? Why aren't people raving about what a HUGE success the Misfits In Action were? I mean, after all - those guys were given SOMETHING TO DO. I mean, Hugh G. Rection! Janitor Jim Duggan! Canadian Jim Duggan! Am I right?!

 

There's always his five hundred runs in TNA. What mid-carders did he put on the map there? Who was more substantially over thanks to Russo's handling of them? A couple of decent examples were thrown out there - with Maple Leaf Muscle, Black Machismo, etc. - but almost all (if not entirely all) of those guys were basically just given joke gimmicks, and then they happened to make the most of it.

 

Same deal with Russo's Attitude Era, basically. A lot of trash and joke gimmicks were given out, but few of them got anyone over. The ones that managed to make chicken salad from his chicken shit were the ones that embraced their roles with sheer enthusiasm.

 

Even then - for every single Gangrel, D'Lo, or "Super Heavyweight" Holly Cousins - we'd get four or five doses of PMS, Meat, Beaver Cleavage, Religious Dustin Runnels, and other bullshit to wade through. It's hardly a winning record for Russo in ANY era - even his most successful. And I think that pretty much sums it up.

 

Yes, I'm agreeing with you about Koko.

 

I'm happy to see Golden Truth, Social Outcasts, etc. get more to do, but it's still very inconsistent and you know it.

 

I'm not secretly angry about Curtis Axel. Good wrestler but either miscast or needs a personality transplant - not really sure.

 

Never said it was "Russo's magic formula" either, just that I'll defend him for trying to do something with everyone. Agreed about Meat, PMS, Religious Dustin Runnels (WTF was that?), etc. I will say, though, that Beaver Cleaver's vignettes did work for me, but it died an instant death once he actually had to walk down the ramp and wrestle as that character - similar to Sean O'Haire in the WWE a few years later. It may have been entertaining from a television standpoint, but not everything can translate to wrestling. I liked The Brady Bunch as a kid, but I wouldn't want to see characters like that in a wrestling ring. That's sort of the effect Beaver Cleavage, "Devil's Advocate" O'Haire, etc. had.

 

The thing is, I prefer horrible gimmicks that are at least memorable to guys having no character, no spot, and nothing to do. Meat, etc. sucked, but at least we remember it - unlike, say, K.C. James, who no one remembers. (Recently watched No Mercy 2006 randomly, which is how I came up with that particular example. His partner was Idol Stevens, who later became Damien Sandow.)

 

I'll also defend MIA, even though I wouldn't call it great or anything. Still, Bill DeMott never meant more than he did in that stupid gimmick (he even won his first and only singles title, and it felt like a good moment when he did). Overall, it was still better than what they were doing with those guys before, which was nothing. A weird example on your part, because there were so many worse gimmicks you could have brought up - like "Fat Chick Thriller" and "That 70's Guy" (poor Mike Awesome).

[SomethingSavage]

Haha. Well, I actually went back and edited the "Fat Chick Thriller" reference in there. You must have quoted my post before the edit though.

 

And you're absolutely right about Bill DeMott never meaning more than he did when he finally captured the US Title. Perhaps Russo's garbage gimmick gave him the springboard to get there, but it did nothing to get DeMott over on its own.

 

They had Duggan betray his country. They had Major Gunns stab him in the back. They had Storm constantly sneak away unscathed. Eventually, all those elements combined with DeMott busting his ass and having a fairly solid series of matches with Storm, and the guy got over via earning a degree of respect from the fans. DeMott was working hard, he had garnered at least a shred of sympathy, and they bought into the rivalry by the end of the series.

But he was hardly playing the same "General Hugh G. Rection" gimmick by that point either. He had evolved into just being a "tooth & nail tenacity" kind of guy. He had separated himself from the shit that was the original gimmick - given to him by Russo.

Again though, I think that's another case of it lying on the strength of the performer underneath the gimmick. It had a lot less to do with Russo and a lot more to do with DeMott - same with Jay Lethal in the Machismo role, etc. You can't just give a guy a gimmick and think that'll do the trick. Mike Awesome is a prime example of that.

 

I also appreciate you fleshing out your previous post a bit more. We all have our guilty pleasures in pro wrestling, so I won't totally fault ya for digging whatever it is you enjoy. But I'll never be convinced that Meat, Beaver Cleavage, Terri's miscarriage, or any of those things were good ideas. Just ain't happening. I'm cool with agreeing to disagree.

[C.S.]

Yeah, I definitely responded before I saw your edit.

But whoa whoa whoa, I never said I liked Meat, Terri's miscarriage, etc. LOL. I just said I thought the Beaver vignettes were entertaining, but the character died the minute he stepped onto a ramp and headed to the ring. The rest of that crap I definitely didn't like. Hacksaw's heel turn was the worst of the worst, because at least with Meat, etc. you could laugh at and/or ignore how bad it was. With Duggan's turn, his 20+ year persona as an all-American patriot was effectively ruined in the most nonsensical and illogical manner possible. Even when Sgt. Slaughter turned his back on his country, which was a stretch in itself, there was at least some semblance of a reason there, however flimsy. With Duggan, it was done only for shock value and nothing else, and the worst part was, no one cared. About the only interesting aspect of that was seeing Duggan with a haircut and shave, but that novelty got old after the first five seconds.

 

You make a great point about DeMott. He really made chicken salad out of chicken shit with "General" Rection, and I think it proves how underutilized he was all along. He may be an abusive asshole as a trainer, but he wasn't a bad talent. Still, the one thing Russo does deserve credit for is putting DeMott in that spot to get the U.S. Title. That didn't happen by itself.

[Petey]

To add to the discussion about the Russo/Cornette booking timeline, Cornette said in his 97 WWF Timeline that he went on a vacation at the end of 97 and missed a week or two of creative meetings and when he returned, he pretty much wasn't invited back to said meetings and that was that. I think it was during this time that Russo gave Vince the ultimatum. So it's not impossible that Russo was the lead non-McMahon guy for all of 1998 and a majority of 1999.

[Loss]

That would explain stuff like Steve Austin beating up Santa Claus and the DX Christmas show with the original Fingerpoke of Doom.

 

Wait, Cornette did commentary on those, so I'm not sure it would.

[Memphis Mark]

Interesting thread . A couple of quick comments. The Mister McMahon character was the brainchild of Jerry Jarrett . While ,Jerry was running WWE and talked Vince into working Memphis during the steroid trial. I believe Vince was in Memphis during 93 developing the Mr. McMahon character . If you read Jarrett's autobiography he goes into great detail about his relationship with McMahon.

 

Russo did not really book the WWF . Russo and friends just made pitches to McMahon . When Russo's crap made it to the small screen the only person to blame was McMahon.

 

However , when Russo went to WCW he proved that he was the Ed Wood of professional wrestling. Without McMahon to hold him in check , Russo proved beyond the shadow of a doubt he was the worst wrestling writer of all time. I would not call Russo a booker , he does not deserve that much respect.

[El-P]

You make a great point about DeMott. He really made chicken salad out of chicken shit with "General" Rection, and I think it proves how underutilized he was all along. He may be an abusive asshole as a trainer, but he wasn't a bad talent. Still, the one thing Russo does deserve credit for is putting DeMott in that spot to get the U.S. Title. That didn't happen by itself.

 

Totally disagree. The DeMott General Rection stuff was mediocre at very best, and he always was the worst involved in any of his angles and matches. He sucked on promos too, trying to emulate a Duggan-like personna. Hugh Morrus was the perfect use for him, he was a fat guy who could bump well and make other people look good. He never was useful in any other way. Russo used him for two reasons : the roster was depleted and he tried to show he could be successful with anyone by giving him a "new idendity and character", which was a stupid gimmick name with horrible sexual pun and bad half-baked military costume. DeMott was at his exact right place as a JTTS. Lot of people who were "underutilized" really weren't (aka Brad Armstrong syndrome).

[BruiserBrody]

Being booked to win the US title doesn't mean he got over to that degree. By that point those titles meant about as much as today's WWE secondary titles. The damage had been done.

[MikeCampbell]

Guys like Gangrel and D'Lo Brown being really over had a lot more to do with it being a blazing hot era for wrestling & a lot less to do with Russo's ridiculous booking.

 

 

Gangrel was totally unlike anyone else they had at the time. The Brood spent most of 1999 getting beaten like drums, but remained fairly over because of the entrance and cool shit like the bloodbath.

 

I think Russo does deserve some credit for D'Lo's longevity. From the time that Faarooq overhauled the Nation in mid 1997 until the Droz accident in late 1999, he seemed to be pretty constantly used. Whether or not he was used all that well is a matter for debate.

[Bix]

Here's what I've never been able to reconcile about Russo:

 

THAT guy tried to book WCW around Bret Hart around Chris Benoit as the top acts. Bret had the WWF history, but Benoit was most certainly not a Russo style guy. Was it just the intensity even if he couldn't talk?

[Cobra Commander]

Might just be a "fresh guy" sort of perception of Benoit. The top WCW guys were either long time guys and/or people that had creative control. Several big guys got vacation'd around Havoc and didn't come back until post-Souled Out.

 

Plus, pushing Benoit means some fans might keep off your case for the bullshit you do in other situations.

 

Pushing Booker T in 2000 might be done for a similar reason as the Benoit push? although mid-2000 had less to work with.

[Loss]

Here's what I've never been able to reconcile about Russo:

 

THAT guy tried to book WCW around Bret Hart around Chris Benoit as the top acts. Bret had the WWF history, but Benoit was most certainly not a Russo style guy. Was it just the intensity even if he couldn't talk?

 

Knew hardcores loved him but had no concept of why is my guess.

[BrianB]

Creatively, Russo is the one I hate the most. For all the reasons others have listed. The TV was just hot garbage full of nonsensical swerves, no continuity (which makes me laugh everytime he tries to argue he's all about logic and storytelling), misogyny, lame gimmicks, fake insider BS, and going in and out of kayfabe with screwjobs and worked shoots galore.

 

Kevin Nash's tenure in WCW was really bad too. That maybe gets overlooked in these discussions just because Russo crash TV stands out more.

[BrianB]

Here's what I've never been able to reconcile about Russo:

 

THAT guy tried to book WCW around Bret Hart around Chris Benoit as the top acts. Bret had the WWF history, but Benoit was most certainly not a Russo style guy. Was it just the intensity even if he couldn't talk?

 

It's certainly strange. I'd guess part of it had to be that Benoit was very popular with die-hard hardcore fans and sheet readers. But part of me wonders how much he just loved the whole shoot, but also worked shoot, aspect to the Nancy, Sullivan, and Benoit angles, matches, and, of course, the affair and the chatter around that. Additionally, Chris' contract was coming up, and people in the company wanted him to re-sign. Not being able to talk certainly didn't stop David Flair...

[Matt D]

When in the trainwreck that was Russo's career did he comment on how his new company's matches were different than his old company's matches? Far more exciting and action packed, etc, and thus worthwhile instead of just getting rid of matches altogether?

[Loss]

One thing Russo was often criticized for during that time, actually, was not understanding the differences between the WWF and WCW audiences.

[El-P]

Kevin Nash's tenure in WCW was really bad too. That maybe gets overlooked in these discussions just because Russo crash TV stands out more.

 

It was terrible. But Russo makes him look like Riki Choshu.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/19237-wcws-highway-to-hell/

[BrianB]

One thing Russo was often criticized for during that time, actually, was not understanding the differences between the WWF and WCW audiences.

 

Yep. Or ever learning from his mistakes. He booked himself to win the world title after the Arquette disaster. He also continues to defend that move despite how it earned a small blip of publicity on USA Today, almost all negative publicity, and it cratered business numbers. (Which was easily foreseeable to anybody who remotely is familiar with the business or knows how longterm fans look at it.) It's pretty clear if you ever hear enough of Russo talking that he didn't understand wrestling fans at all, or the psychology of why they watch and what they like, and most of his philosophy is largely contradictory to what he actually does or says about what he did. It's all about him just doing what he wanted to do and what he thought was entertaining. If it was more than that, his approach wouldn't be so easily identifable and such a contanst barrage over the years of the same old drek.

[sek69]

That's what made his Twitter spat with Loss even more hilarious. His first response was all BRO BRO I NEVER BLAMED OTHERS BRO I DREW RATINGS (BRO), and Loss just responded with tons of examples of him throwing other people under the bus when his ideas failed to get over. Like you could tell from how quick the replies came it was off the top of his head and it didn't take him any time to think of them. It was really quite something seeing him get pantsed in public like that.

 

 

TTK mentioned before about Russo's rep as a backstabber, wasn't that the whole point of why Hogan sued him that Russo went into business for himself in their angle and pretty much took advantage of the opportunity knowing Hogan couldn't really defend himself on TV? I mean when you think of it, the only ones who have ever been able to put Hogan in a sympathetic light were him and Gawker Media.

[Death From Above]

Putting aside that he has a lot of just bad ideas, Russo's biggest most fatal flaw is his lack of understanding that making money is more important than popping ratings (which even then is something he's struggled with on his own).

[BrianB]

Putting aside that he has a lot of just bad ideas, Russo's biggest most fatal flaw is his lack of understanding that making money is more important than popping ratings (which even then is something he's struggled with on his own).

 

That's true. Though at WCW his contract gave him bonuses based on the TV ratings, so from a narrow self-interested POV, which I think is ultimately all he cares about, it made sense for him chase ratings. Unfortunately, he killed house show business under his first run, even if the ratings were largely steady (a similar thing happened to WCW in 1993, I believe.) Nevertheless, this seems to go back to him never bothering to learn from his mistakes, as he kept doing the same things.