Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 This comes up enough and I know some people hate it but we could at least have a master thread for it and try and discuss this intelligently. I want to broach the topic in the form of a question - if we were doing another Greatest Wrestler Ever poll would Michaels make your top hundred? We can bring the comparisons in from there and talk about him up against other guys, et. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Definitely. And in my top 20. Depending on how I feel that day, maybe top 10. He simply does the kind of stuff that I like watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Definitely Top 50. Probably Top 30. Possibly Top 20. However, my top 100 is heavily slanted towards US wrestlers just based on what I've seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I think Shawn is the ultimate litmus test of whether you place greater value on little things or the big picture. A Shawn match isn't going to have a bunch of nifty moments (or if it does, they come from the other guy), but it works if you look at it as a cohesive whole. I'm a big picture guy, so I rank Shawn very highly. Top 20 for sure, and a dark horse pick for top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Possibly. But he wouldn't make my top 50 for sure, and he probably wouldn't make my top 75. I made a list of wrestlers that just came to mind. There may be others, but these I know for sure I'd have higher than Shawn. 67 wrestlers listed below that would be locks. If there was someone I had to give any thought to beyond just "definitely yes", I didn't list them. Aja Kong Akira Hokuto Akira Taue Arn Anderson Atlantis Barry Windham Blue Panther Bobby Eaton Brian Pillman Bull Nakano Chigusa Nagayo Cien Caras Daisuke Ikeda Dan Kroffat Devil Masami Dick Togo Dynamite Kansai El Dandy El Hijo del Santo El Satanico Genichiro Tenryu Gran Hamada Great Sasuke Hayabusa Hiroshi Hase Jerry Lawler Jumbo Tsuruta Jushin Liger Juventud Guerrera Kazuo Yamazaki Kenta Kobashi Kiyoshi Tamura La Parka Lioness Asuka Manami Toyota Masa Fuchi Mitsuharu Misawa MS-1 Negro Casas Pirata Morgan Psicosis Randy Savage Ric Flair Ricky Steamboat Riki Choshu Sakie Hasegawa Shinjiro Otani Shinya Hashimoto Stan Hansen Steve Austin Steve Williams Steven Regal Taka Michinoku Takako Inoue Tatsumi Fujinami Terry Funk Terry Gordy Toshiaki Kawada Toshiyo Yamada Tsuyoshi Kikuchi Tully Blanchard Vader Volk Han Yoji Anjo Yoshihiro Takayama Yuki Ishikawa Yumiko Hotta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Really? I'm generally a big picture guy but part of that is internal coherency and moves and moments mattering to the greater whole. A structural underpinning. Things not dropped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 The answer is that I don't know until I see. He's definitely not top 20 for me, but he might be top 80 ... wont know till I try to compile a list. Might do it after Spain vs. France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I'm certain he wouldn't make my top 100 if it was all encompassing. Far too many good Lucha workers would bump a lot of guys out that made my original list. Combine that with the explosion of Portland footage, someone like Jim Breaks who I hadn't watched at all at the time of the last poll (and possibly other Euro candidates like Marty Jones for example), seeing all the AWA, other 80's Sets, et and there are too many guys who have surged ahead of Shawn for him to even be a strong contender for me at this point. If it was U.S. only he would have a chance as I am possibly the biggest Rockers fan on Earth and I appreciate enough of his pre-comeback work even if I think some of it is really overrated. Still I'm not sure. The problem I have with Shawn is that I feel that he peaked very, very early and I really dislike most of his post-comeback work (I seem to recall thinking he was inexplicably pretty good in 2007 or some random period like that) including a lot of the stuff that even critics of his have enjoyed on some level. There are probably no more than seven or eight years where I would rate Shawn as a good worker and I'm not sure I'd rate him as a great worker for more than two or three. This is really not bad, but I don't think it's all timer level and there are a lot of guys I'd have him behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Someone answer me this: if his 96 is so great why's he getting booed by Survivor Series? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Someone answer me this: if his 96 is so great why's he getting booed by Survivor Series? Because uncool as shit to the NY crowd who loved Sid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 We discussed this on the 96 yearbook podcast but Shawn was really booked and presented terribly in 96. You don't have to be a fan of his, much less an apologist for him to recognize that he was cast in a light where backlash in certain areas was inevitable. Having said that I do think that the greatness of Shawn's 96 has been heavily mythologized in some quarters. I don't even think he was the best U.S. worker that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Considering I'd have no problem finding at least 25 american wrestlers, 25 japanese wrestlers and 25 woman wrestler better than Shawn, and considering I have no doubt there are easily 25 mexican wrestler better than him, Shawn probably wouldn't make my top 100 at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Yeah, I don't really blame Shawn for the reaction he was getting by year's end. I think Vince fawning and bad booking caused that more than his own performance for the most part, although Shawn probably could have done some things differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I don't even think he was the best U.S. worker that year. He wasn't even the best guy in the company. Austin, Foley, Vader (and Bret if he had stayed all year long) were better than him. If you add people from ECW like Douglas, Scorp, Whipreck, people from WCW like Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Juvy, Psic, Regal, I doubt Shawn would even make my top 10 US workers this year to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I think that is probably a stretch. I am certain I would have him behind Scorp and Rey. Child killer feels lateral to me. I am pretty fucking high on Mikey and could see a case for him over Shawn that year. No way on Juvy and I think Regal is a guy who lacks the matches offhand. With Dean I'd say it's fairly lateral, maybe a slight edge to Shawn without seeing the B-Shows. What Eddy and Psicois am I forgetting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I've said it before but I would take Sting's body of work over Shawn Michaels due to the internal consistency of Sting matches and I tend to think that the Sting/Vader matches is better than Shawn's best stuff. I also think Sting/Meng is a better underdog beats the unstoppable monster from a logic stand point than most of Shawn's underdog vs. unstoppable monster matches. With that said, in a top 100. I could safely see him in the 40-75 range depending on my mood and whoever I'm forgetting at the moment I would make the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Just going to do this in batches of 10 as they come to mind. See how far I can go before I'm not confident that I don't rate Shawn higher without being dishonest to myself. This will be more difficult for me than most because 1. I don't have 90s Japanese stuff to draw from, or Lucha, period. 2. I actually rate Michaels quite highly, I just don't see him in a GOAT discussion. Let's see what happens ... Funk Hansen Jumbo Tenyru Yatsu (why not? He's in some of the greatest matches I've ever seen in my life and possesses one of my all-time favourite offensive arsenals) Choshu Kawada Bockwinkel Martel Race Hogan Andre DiBiase Savage Hennig Rude Austin Angle Bobby Heenan (seriously!! Love Heenan in the ring) Steamboat Flair Arn Tully Windham Sting (may get flak for this, but I'm willing to argue it) Vader Regal Eaton Morton Lawler Pillman Dusty Rhodes (this one is borderline, it's about working a crowd and maximum babyface sympathy against, basically, superior workrate - tough one, I can't justify putting Jake here, for example, so not sure on this) The Rock Benoit Eddie Guerrero Chavo Guerrero (borderline - loved the Mr. Olympia match on MidSouth set, like him a lot generally as a worker, if you asked me right now whether I'd prefer to watch, say, Rick Martel against Shawn or against Chavo, I'd pick Chavo ... but I need to see more really) 2 Cold Scorpio Foley Rey (borderline - I'm much less high on Rey than basically everyone else here, largely oweing to the fact I don't watch the current product, this is based on WCW and WWE up until 2003ish) Honestly, starting to struggle now. I think that Shawn would have to come somewhere after the names listed above in the 40s. I'd put him above Owen Hart and a lot of guys who I considered over the past hour. All this says to me though, is that I need to see more stuff. That's not to say that watching any of Will's sets is NECESSARILY going to place guys above Shawn. No one from MidSouth, for example, that wasn't already making this list is here. But it may expand the pool. Come December and I'd probably have AWA guys like Jerry Blackwell and Buddy Rose above him, maybe Slaughter, maybe Patera. Possibly Billy Robinson too if he's anywhere near as good as his one showing on the All Japan set. But as things stand as of right now, Shawn is probably ranking about 41 or 42 for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Since everyone else seems to be doing it, I'll post my list. The only wrestlers I'd place above Shawn for certain are Jumbo, Misawa, Kawada, Funk, Kobashi, Flair, Bret, Eddy, and Hansen. After that, there's a big logjam consisting of Shawn, Lawler, Austin, Vader, Steamboat, Aja, Liger, and Santo which could go in any order depending on my mood. So I guess I'd have Shawn 10th at best and 17th at worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 For the most part, I don't think you should use the 80s sets to ever evaluate one wrestler against another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I've seen very little of Shawn in 96. I never make a list like that since I have so many blind spots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Dusty is a guy who suffers from the vast majority of his available matches being from when he was either past his prime or way past his prime. From what's available he comes off as a deceptively athletic, tremendous all around worker in the '70s who started to slip as his weight ballooned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I feel like we really haven't had a good Dusty discussion. And especially Dusty in the 80s. When athleticism has gone past. I was watching Dusty vs Arn in the cage last night from 1/86, and was thinking how differently he did things from Hogan and if Hogan would even be the best point of comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I would take Dusty over Shawn easily. Better charisma, more compelling in even bad matches, better logic and he sold beatings better. I haven't actually watched Dusty for awhile. I remember really loving him when I was knee deep in 1985-1986 NWA a couple of years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 For the most part, I don't think you should use the 80s sets to ever evaluate one wrestler against another. Why? If you are someone who believes in evaluating peak v. peak the 80's Sets are as good a comparative tool as I can imagine. If you are someone who weighs all things - which admittedly I am - I can see the flaws as you have to start considering things like selection bias, consistency, et. But the point isn't "I saw a few good matches from wrestler x on an 80's set so now I rate him above Shawn." It's more "I saw a ton Mr. Saito from WWF, AWA, AJPW and NJPW in the last couple of years and I have watched a lot of older WWF in the last several years and I would rate him above Shawn." I'll post a broader list later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankensteiner Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 For the most part, I don't think you should use the 80s sets to ever evaluate one wrestler against another. Why? If you are someone who believes in evaluating peak v. peak the 80's Sets are as good a comparative tool as I can imagine. Peak vs. peak to me doesn't mean top matches vs top matches. It means comparing one guy's prime to another guy's prime. You can't get a good grasp of a worker by watching a number of cherry picked matches for a Best of a promotion set. If you are someone who weighs all things - which admittedly I am - I can see the flaws as you have to start considering things like selection bias, consistency, et. But the point isn't "I saw a few good matches from wrestler x on an 80's set so now I rate him above Shawn." It's more "I saw a ton Mr. Saito from WWF, AWA, AJPW and NJPW in the last couple of years and I have watched a lot of older WWF in the last several years and I would rate him above Shawn." Well, I think the former reaction is far more common. It's not really just about Shawn but any WWF/WCW wrestlers where all the footage has been examined. You watch the top 15 Chris Adams matches on the Texas set or the top 15 Murdoch matches in Mid-South, they might come off as better workers than say someone like Davey Boy Smith. On the other hand, if all people had on DBS were a select few matches against Bret, Owen, Shawn, and Vader, I'd imagine he would be looked at more favorably than he is now. I seriously doubt more than a minority of people here or on the DVDVR boards have gone through all the WCCW TV/Ft. Worth/Legends shows or all of the Mid-South House Shows/TV/UWF TV/PPW shows. This is nothing I can prove definitively but I would guess people have formed opinions on these workers simply based on the limited footage on the 80's sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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