Superstar Sleeze Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I know Cena/Lesnar from Summerslam is getting all the MOTYC love. I understand why because it was so unique and a great heel performance from Brock. At the end of the day, it is a glorified squash and Cena basically no sold the match on the following RAW where he demolished the Wyatts. Now I know people are not enamored with the finish of the Night of the Champions rematch, but I am really alone in thinking that was the better overall match? I loved how Cena's unbreakable will finally penetrated the seemingly invincible Beast with a nasty back elbow. From there, Brock just reeks of desperation playing catch up ball with a Cena that just will not be denied. Cena gives a great heroic babyface performance. I do not think the finish is awful in fact I think it is pretty sound from logic standpoint if you think about it from Rollins' perspective he just did not execute properly because he should have really made sure he knocked Cena out. I currently have this as my WWE match of the year. I am more curious if I am the only one who thinks it is a better than the Summerslam match, even though I think the Summerslam match is the better spectacle/angle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree, Sleeze. The SummerSlam match reminds me of Mankind-Taker at KotR 98. Using the same feud, Night of Champions is their KotR 96 or Buried Alive equivalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastic Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Now I know people are not enamored with the finish of the Night of the Champions rematch, but I am really alone in thinking that was the better overall match? I loved how Cena's unbreakable will finally penetrated the seemingly invincible Beast with a nasty back elbow. From there, Brock just reeks of desperation playing catch up ball with a Cena that just will not be denied. Cena gives a great heroic babyface performance. Yeah, Lesnar seems to be the one who really brings out the best in John Cena as where Cena's in-ring character is intended. Never has Cena been more of an effective seller than in his matches with Lesnar. Both the matches were good, the NOC match was the better overall, I agree with that, but the Summerslam match was the better Cena performance. Cena made it look like Brock was killing him with each additional German. The selling of the suplexes wasn't overboard or pinball, it was quite AJPW if I'm being honest. Cena reminded me a lot of the way the likes of Misawa and Kawada would sell such moves, eg, completely losing their expression, struggling to even rise from the ground, and continuing to sell fogginess on comebacks. Cena's handful of little comebacks in the match weren't OTT either, he was playing a guy waiting for small opportunities of overconfidence in his opponent to take advantage of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree that the Night of Champions match was better, although Summerslam was a bigger assault on our wrestling fan sensibilities (in a good way). I suspect ten years from now, newer fans who are like us will wonder why people loved the Summerslam match as much as they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 If WWE doesn't want Bryan to win the RR, then its time to pass the heat to someone who needs it. Who is WWE trying to get over a top heel that perhaps isn't connecting the way they should be? Cesaro? Harper (maybe)? Whomever eliminates Bryan will be the biggest heel in the company plain and simple. I don't think so. The company is the heel. If they eliminate Bryan, the crowd turns at that moment. It may be 10 minutes, 5 minutes, or 2 minutes before they go off the air, but the minute they toss Bryan then the crowd is going to shit on the match. They aren't going to boo the heel, they are going to boo the company's decision making. I agree with this. I do think there are still ways a heel can be genuinely hated, but heat over costing someone a match almost always goes to the company instead of the wrestler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I agree that the Night of Champions match was better, although Summerslam was a bigger assault on our wrestling fan sensibilities (in a good way). I suspect ten years from now, newer fans who are like us will wonder why people loved the Summerslam match as much as they did. I'm wondering that right now. It was one of the worst matches of the year IMO. Yes, I get that people are going gaga because it was so unique, but so were the Cena/Wyatt matches and everyone shit all over those (I defended them at the time because of their uniqueness, but I wouldn't call them great from an athletic or artistic standpoint). Cena/Brock at SummerSlam was just plain boring (IMO, of course). A thousand German suplexes - or so it seemed - isn't my idea of a compelling match. At least the Cena/Wyatt series had a fun WTF trainwreck appeal about them - not that those were MOTY candidates (or anywhere near) either, of course. Then again, I may be biased - I consider Brock one of the most overrated and overpushed guys ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 The biggest negative about those two Cena/Lesnar matches was that they completely negated each other. The first established Brock as this monster, unbeatable freak, cementing the Undertaker victory and making it mean something. The Night of Champions match reaffirmed Brock as just another guy who Cena can hang with, and even have beat until he is saved by interference. It isn't even as if they tried to emphasize that Cena had a new strategy that enabled him to go toe to toe. They just worked it like a regular match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantastic Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 The biggest negative about those two Cena/Lesnar matches was that they completely negated each other. The first established Brock as this monster, unbeatable freak, cementing the Undertaker victory and making it mean something. The Night of Champions match reaffirmed Brock as just another guy who Cena can hang with, and even have beat until he is saved by interference. It isn't even as if they tried to emphasize that Cena had a new strategy that enabled him to go toe to toe. They just worked it like a regular match. Yeah, it was a bit lazy, but it's clear now they were going for a trilogy and therefore needed something to make Cena seem like he has a chance, especially if they are planning on having him lose again - which is probably the likely scenario at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Is the Summerslam match really getting MOTY love? I'd call it a great spectacle that turned into a retrospective disappointment with the follow-up. It seems insane to call it one of the worst matches of the year given how successfully it created the desired effect in the moment. But a classic match? No. I don't quite agree with the idea of NOC negating Summerslam. But WWE really did blow a potentially classic series by running the rematch so quickly and failing to do any special storytelling around Cena searching for new ways to handle Brock. I mean, haven't any of their writers seen Rocky III? This shit isn't that hard. I actually think that when I look back on 2014, their handling of the Summerslam aftermath will go down as my biggest disappointment. They have yet to recapture my interest since, though I imagine that'll change with the Rumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Not necessarily "MOTY"-level love, but absolutely as an "MOTYC". For most of them, I really don't think that it's anything more than that they enjoyed seeing Cena land on his neck a bunch of times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 The uniqueness is a big factor in its favour, in an environment where you have people like Kane and Dolph Ziggler basically working the same match week after week for years on end. The style has got linear to the point where even good matches fail to stand out because of how predictably they were worked. The Summerslam match subverted all the usual tropes for a main event title match, and was like nothing they had done before. To make it all the more shocking, it was the most protected main eventer since Hulk Hogan who was getting decimated. People were marking out and just to get the frenzied reaction it did makes it worthy of end of year discussions, even if in retrospect it doesn't hold up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 Is the Summerslam match really getting MOTY love? I'd call it a great spectacle that turned into a retrospective disappointment with the follow-up. It seems insane to call it one of the worst matches of the year given how successfully it created the desired effect in the moment. But a classic match? No. I don't quite agree with the idea of NOC negating Summerslam. But WWE really did blow a potentially classic series by running the rematch so quickly and failing to do any special storytelling around Cena searching for new ways to handle Brock. I mean, haven't any of their writers seen Rocky III? This shit isn't that hard. I actually think that when I look back on 2014, their handling of the Summerslam aftermath will go down as my biggest disappointment. They have yet to recapture my interest since, though I imagine that'll change with the Rumble. I couldn't put it in my MOTY list for the simple fact that taken completely out-of-context, its just a guy getting his ass whooped for 10 minutes. The story going into the match is VERY important to the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I couldn't put it in my MOTY list for the simple fact that taken completely out-of-context, its just a guy getting his ass whooped for 10 minutes. Don't see why this disqualifies it. There are a lot of elements that go into making something a MOTYC, not just that the match is competitive and back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The aftermath completely negated anything special about the Summerslam match. It was played like a parody of a Cena feud written by someone who hates Cena. He comes right out talking about how he'll overcome and get his win back and how he hasn't been demoralized etc etc. Awful. Then he squashes Bray the first night he's back wrestling. Everything about Cena from the moment he got back on TV screamed at the viewer that the Summerslam match was not a special occassion and that nothing at all about Cena or this feud will be different than how any other Cena feud always is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I couldn't put it in my MOTY list for the simple fact that taken completely out-of-context, its just a guy getting his ass whooped for 10 minutes. Don't see why this disqualifies it. There are a lot of elements that go into making something a MOTYC, not just that the match is competitive and back and forth. Totally. It's an amazing Pro Wrestling match. And you can't consider matches "out of context" when rating them. The story is intertwined in wrestling matches and can't be removed. That's like looking at a painting and removing half the colors and then judging it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I think people should evaluate matches however they want. If you need to make an effort to consciously exclude certain factors I'd question the merit of doing so, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthedoctor Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 The aftermath completely negated anything special about the Summerslam match. It was played like a parody of a Cena feud written by someone who hates Cena. He comes right out talking about how he'll overcome and get his win back and how he hasn't been demoralized etc etc. Awful. Then he squashes Bray the first night he's back wrestling. Everything about Cena from the moment he got back on TV screamed at the viewer that the Summerslam match was not a special occassion and that nothing at all about Cena or this feud will be different than how any other Cena feud always is. This is one thing that really irritated me about anything WWE has done in a long time. Cena put Bryan over cleanly in that match which im suprised why they didnt save this for a Wrestlemania match but they ruined the whole thing with Orton winning the belt straight away. Every match seemed a screw job ie HBK turning on Bryan which shouldnt have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchistxx Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I think people should evaluate matches however they want. If you need to make an effort to consciously exclude certain factors I'd question the merit of doing so, though. That isn't true at all. If I am evaluating a house song I expect it to have a nice groove. If I am evaluating a choral song I can exclude the 'nice groove' factor when rating it. If I am evaluating a piece of ambient instrumental techno I can't complain that it doesn't have a killer chorus or catchy verses like I would with a pop song. Certain factors can certainly be consciously excluded because you want different things from different people. There isn't this set of factors which every match or piece of art has to adhere to. A match has to work well and blow you away in the context it is worked. Look at Undertaker vs Mankind - judge that match of more conventional factors and it doesn't hold up at all. But it is still an incredible spectacle and a far better match than some random Sheamus bout on Raw that has more traditional qualities like good pacing, selling, proper structure, decent build to a back and forth finish with lots of exciting near falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 again on SD the crowd was completely silent for all the Authority stuff. They didn't even sweeten the audio. This just comes off as the company shoving a storyline down the fans throats with no sense of self awareness. I'm getting a Hollywood Hogan/Eric Bischoff late 97/early 98 vibe here. Maybe it changes Monday but I could see the fans sitting on their hands for all of this stuff. I can't even imagine how long the opening promo will be on Raw and how many backstage segments they will have. Probably have the final segment with either Orton or Sting showing up pretty good article at 411 about the whole situation http://411mania.com/wrestling/wwe-is-failing-to-evolve/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 It's pretty sad to watch WWE go completely out-of-its-way to make sure things don't mean anything. Even-stevening booking, John Cena being FIRED and opening up Raw the following week, The Authority being OUT-OF-POWER FOREVER- only to come back a month later, AJ Lee being made the PERMANENT GM- until Vickie, etc. took over, CM Punk 'leaving WWE' after MITB only to return 2 weeks later, etc. WWE constantly rotating writers is also a big problem because you got guys/gals who only know 'evil authority figure' and know Vince/Steph/HHH pops for that shit and so it continues a million times over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superstar Sleeze Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 This Ryback promo is dreadful I think I am in minority, but I love Ryback's delivery. He is just so matter of fact. There is no arguing. It is honest, earnest and powerful. I thought it was a little weird for Ryback to be giving the underdog who sacrificed everything promo, but hey Ryback bleeds too, brutha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Wow, Darren Young sighting (I think?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exposer Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Cena-Brock-Rollins triple threat at Rumble just announced. More options on how the title picture will play out now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 This Ryback promo is dreadful I think I am in minority, but I love Ryback's delivery. He is just so matter of fact. There is no arguing. It is honest, earnest and powerful. I thought it was a little weird for Ryback to be giving the underdog who sacrificed everything promo, but hey Ryback bleeds too, brutha. Oh, I had no problem with the content of the promo. Only that he sounded as if he had the script right in front of him and he was reading it word for word like someone from a porn flick. Also, check your facebook messages Sleeze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted January 6, 2015 Report Share Posted January 6, 2015 Cena-Brock-Rollins triple threat at Rumble just announced. More options on how the title picture will play out now. Gross. Triple threats suck. Cena-Lesnar have had 3 awesome matches and I was excited for the final one. Now they add Rollins who I don't like as a heel into this, which means Triple H interference and this should stink. The ONLY way this is a good idea if they use this to turn Cena heel and steal the title, while Triple H helps Cena win and Rollins goes babyface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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