King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 7. How many of the million-or-so guys who have worked Brody tribute/knockoff acts over the years are actually better than him? (I'm tempted to just say "all of them", but I'd want to actually think about it first) Nord better than brody? Really? That's funny and ridiculous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 7. How many of the million-or-so guys who have worked Brody tribute/knockoff acts over the years are actually better than him? (I'm tempted to just say "all of them", but I'd want to actually think about it first)Are we counting pre-long hair John Nord as a Brody tribute/knockoff act? The Barbarian in Mid-South was definitely more consistent than Brody. Duggan is clearly better. Barbarian had about the weakest full nelson I ever seen for someone so strong. Just watch him in Mid South Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Barbarian also looked downright pathetic as Yukon John Nord in the AWA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 I totally understand the Brody is overrated argument but come on this guy wasn't the second coming of Rusty Brooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Who compared him to BRooks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Who compared him to BRooks? No one did, my exageration to make a point in the way brodsy is being talked about. But just watch Nord in Mid South and tell me he was better than Brody. I have spent the better part of a year watching the Mid South voulmes from start to Jan of 86 and Nord's upper body power moves loo weak and sloppy. He had excellent leg strength which showed during leg drops and stuff like that. But Nord has the weakest swinging full nelson or just plain full nelson i have ever seen. As far as Duggan goes I could buy that, at least Mid South Duggan, so no argument there. I would still take Brody over Dick Murdoch, Dick Slater and someother guys. Slaughter from 80-85 was better than Brody but really tailed off after he left Vince. Brody had two real good matches with Flair in St. Louis and great tag matches with Snuka in japan early 80's and 87 and some real good stuff with Dory. I also like the wrestlerock main event. I liked the few matches I have seen of Brody-Blackwell. For the most part the Japan stuff I saw was good. Overrated? Possibly but horrible? seems like a stretch to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 I doubt you will find a forum with more people who have watched lots of Brody recently than this one. I'll get into my own conclusions more later and make a comp. to Sayama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Really enjoyed reading this thread. I think I agree most with whomever described Brody as a symbol. He's all image and no substance. But what an image! The gist of what I've been reading here is basically "I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THIS GUY IS SO FUCKING POPULAR!!!" In short, Brody was a guy who looked like a warrior god, with a mythic outlaw reputation, who was always successful and only on his own terms without becoming a sellout, who was murdered and died prematurely. Frankly, I don't understand why anybody wouldn't understand why he's so fucking popular. I think we all know why he's popular. No one is questioning that. What people are questioning is whether he's a good worker. His murder really had nothing to do with it. On some level, it never has: Brody was thought of as a great worker by the consensus even before he got killed. Maybe there are Brody fans from back in those days who feel invested in defending his "worker honor" because he died, but that seems unlikely. Similar people defend the worker honor of Sayama, or are folks you can't have a conversation with about Flair. Which is entirely different from say Dylan or Loss who you can have a discussion with on Flair, and I'm confident that if someone wants to point to some bad work of Kawada in the 90s, I'd take a look at it and give it some thought... frankly might agree. And it won't do to say, "Hey, the Ultimate Warrior was popular in his day too." For one thing, the Warrior and every superficial superstar like him never had Brody's street cred. Whether he was a good worker or not, Brody was a legit, self-made renegade badass. Besides, it's not just that Brody was popular or respected in his time, it's that he is a wrestling legend for all times; for reasons that have not all that much to do with his in-ring chops. And that's ok. Which, when looking at his work, I don't think his critics worry about. They're just looking at his work. If you want to say his matches sucked, that's fine. But Brody still matters. He's still an important figure, and he deserves a certain kind of respect for what he meant to wrestling. Except... He surprisingly meant little to much of pro wrestling. He meant a lot in Japan. In the US, he meant nothing in the Expansion Era since he didn't work for the WWF or JCP, which is where most people watched. He didn't mean as much to WCCW or Georgia fans as the Freebirds because he didn't work either that much in the truly hot days, where as the Birds were anchors for very hot stretches. In ranking the big deals in the AWA when it was hot, Brody was just a passing train in the night. So for a lot of Expansion Era fans, Brody doesn't mean much: he wasn't on TV like Honkytonk Man. In the Monday Night Wars were where we got our next wave of fans, Brody didn't mean anything: he had been dead for 7+ years. The current post-Wars era? He means nothing to the fans watching on TV. He really only means something to a small number of fans, who are either older fans who happened to watch him, or match collectors... with there being some of both. Since he really didn't work as widely as say an NWA Champ like Harley Race, or stay in the WWWF/WWF long, or have a major run in the AWA like say Patterson & Stevens did... the folks who saw him isn't all that huge. Other than Japan, and arguably PR in a morbid way, Brody just isn't as big of a historical figure as folks think in this country. I hate to say it, but Edge was a bigger star in this country than Brody... and I'm no advocate of Edge in anyway. So what are people in a thread like this left with? His matches, and his mic work if they care to discuss that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Solomon Posted October 7, 2013 Report Share Posted October 7, 2013 Brody has been idolized by hardcores including myself so I see the overrated argument but wouldn't go so far as to say he sucked. I too have watched tons of Brody going back to my tape trading days in the late 80's, also recently watched some Japan stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrklarr Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 He really only means something to a small number of fans, who are either older fans who happened to watch him, or match collectors... with there being some of both. Since he really didn't work as widely as say an NWA Champ like Harley Race, or stay in the WWWF/WWF long, or have a major run in the AWA like say Patterson & Stevens did... the folks who saw him isn't all that huge. Other than Japan, and arguably PR in a morbid way, Brody just isn't as big of a historical figure as folks think in this country. I hate to say it, but Edge was a bigger star in this country than Brody... and I'm no advocate of Edge in anyway. So what are people in a thread like this left with? His matches, and his mic work if they care to discuss that. You're probably right on all counts. But I would ask, then, what do we do with Brody and his legacy? Does he even have one? He's been forgotten largely, as you point out. Is this a good thing, or does he deserve a place in wrestling history? I feel like he matters somehow. This may just be based on emotional argument, though. It FEELS like he should matter, so I want to say that he does. But maybe he doesn't. Is there anybody from the past that we could compare him to? A guy who is overrated as a worker and mostly forgotten, but who still has a hold on the hearts and minds of a considerable amount of serious fans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Is there anybody from the past that we could compare him to? A guy who is overrated as a worker and mostly forgotten, but who still has a hold on the hearts and minds of a considerable amount of serious fans? As much as I dig the guy, I think this could apply to Bam Bam Bigelow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 There are Bam Bam matches I enjoy watching today though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I'm not suggesting I don't enjoy the man's work personally. In the past, Bigelow has been overrated as a worker to the point where some have called him the "best big man in the business". At this point he is never mentioned on WWE television and only turns up in clips when they show the ring break bump with Taz(z). It isn't too much of a stretch to say Bam Bam Bigelow has been "overrated" as a worker and is "mostly" forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 You're probably right on all counts. But I would ask, then, what do we do with Brody and his legacy? Does he even have one? He's been forgotten largely, as you point out. Is this a good thing, or does he deserve a place in wrestling history? I feel like he matters somehow. This may just be based on emotional argument, though. It FEELS like he should matter, so I want to say that he does. But maybe he doesn't. He has a place in wrestling history. But "wrestling history" has largely never matter much to current fans. I don't know if John Cena Fans really care much about Macho Man beyond him popping up on some DVD's. We're not more than a decade past WCW dying. Macho hasn't been on regular TV for 13 years at this point. At some point, he's just the past. That's Macho. A much bigger star than Brody. Bob Backlund was a bigger star in the US than Brody, and got a PPV main event push in the 90s when he was well past his prime. I don't think he means anything to John Cena fans. That's wrestling history. Perhaps that's the way it's becoming with most stuff, and current fans of sports or movies don't care about or remember what happened in the 80s or earlier. Brody's legacy is among hardcores, within the business by his peers, and in Japan where they care a bit more about business. It's not likely to die out among either the first or the third of those groups. On the hardcore front, you have new hardcores watching him and thinking about his work without having the Old Consensus hanging over their head. You also have older fans like me who long ago (i.e. in the 90s) gave more thought about Brody's work and didn't really worry too much about what they previously thought of him. So you have a fair amount of hardcores who don't really feel like the "legacy" has any impact on how they look at his work. That's not going to stop Brody Fans from loving him, any more than critical thinking about Sayama is going to stop his fans from loving him. Is there anybody from the past that we could compare him to? A guy who is overrated as a worker and mostly forgotten, but who still has a hold on the hearts and minds of a considerable amount of serious fans? Sayama. And he's not forgotten in his own country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 1) Nord was great in 91-92 and I've pointed to the Bulldog match as a very, very easy example. I think he's actually one of the very best guys in the WWF during that period. I like him so much more than prime Brody. 2) Bigelow is a guy who suffers heavily from having his best match ever in his rookie year (or close to it) and that's a very weird hurdle to get over. I think he has lots of very good matches (I could mention a bunch from 93-95 pretty easily) and certainly did improve greatly, but that's one of those counter-intuitive things that shut the argument off with him almost immediately. i can't speak for how his ECW work has aged but my impression is that people here don't like it as much as at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrklarr Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Is there anybody from the past that we could compare him to? A guy who is overrated as a worker and mostly forgotten, but who still has a hold on the hearts and minds of a considerable amount of serious fans? As much as I dig the guy, I think this could apply to Bam Bam Bigelow. That's an interesting comparison. I like it, but here's another one: Magnum T.A. I like Magnum a lot, but I'd argue that he's one of the most overrated figures in history. I mean that in a general sense, because I don't feel qualified to judge his skill as a worker, though I'd wager he is overrated as a worker since the enduring image of Magnum is the superb I Quit match with Tully. Could his whole body of work live up to that standard? Magnum is a mythic figure in the sense that lots of people just take it as a given that he was destined to be wrestling's biggest star and the savior of JCP. He had extraordinary potential, but it was far from inevitable that he would reach the heights of success that many people assume that he would. But like Brody, his career was cut short under tragic circumstances then eclipsed and distorted by legend. It's not a perfect comparison, but what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Magnum has really good matches against both Wahoo and Ole Anderson that I can think of. He's also great in this: Ric Flair, Arn and Ole Anderson vs Dusty Rhodes, Magnum TA and Manny Fernandez (Worldwide 12/21/85) One of the best 6-man tags ever. I don't know if he's really overrated. He is great around 85-6, and surely he would have got better. However, I think his potential is probably a bit over-hyped when people start with the Hogan comparisons. JCP would have been in better shape in 87, 88 for sure if he was around, but I don't know if he would have drawn enough to save them. The company was just over-spending like mad. Also, I've always wondered that if the injury hadn't have happened, how long before Vince comes knocking anyway? What would have happened with Hogan still around? An IC title run at best? I get the comparison though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 Magnum is a good comparison in the sense that he's probably a nobody to the current audience but carries that mythic "what could have been" quality for a certain segment of longtime fans. On the other hand, his reputation as a worker hasn't really suffered from people taking second looks. He was solid at worst. There's none of that weird dissonance you get with Brody, who was so admired by Meltzer and others but who looks like shit on tape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I should mention that I'll be watching some 1979 St. Louis soon and Brody is all over it. Larry Matysik constantly raves about Brody, so I'm interested to see if there's even an iota of justification for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marrklarr Posted October 8, 2013 Report Share Posted October 8, 2013 I should mention that I'll be watching some 1979 St. Louis soon and Brody is all over it. Larry Matysik constantly raves about Brody, so I'm interested to see if there's even an iota of justification for it. I will be very interested to read about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 I should mention that I'll be watching some 1979 St. Louis soon and Brody is all over it. Larry Matysik constantly raves about Brody, so I'm interested to see if there's even an iota of justification for it. Everyone in the Missouri/Iowa/Kansas area speaks about Brody like they're talking about Jesus. I've been noticing it for years, and have never really understood it. I enjoy Brody's shit more than a lot of the people around here, but the reverence locally is crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Haven't we established that people talk about Bulldog Bob Brown with reverence too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 In my experience Brown is a guy who gets name dropped when talking about the greats in the area, but no one ever has anything to say about him beyond his name. Brody gets talked about around here almost to Harley's level. Speaking ill of Harley will get you shot in these parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted October 9, 2013 Report Share Posted October 9, 2013 Yeah Brown is the first guy that gets mentioned around Wichita but I have yet to hear anything of substance beyond his name other than "he was cool to me as a kid because he had a flat top" and "he always won". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 10, 2013 Report Share Posted October 10, 2013 I had a dream last night that I found a really up tempo, workrate Brody tag on youtube and posted it in this thread. Of all the threads in all the land my dreams had to walk into this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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