Bob Backlund

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't really want to rehash the argument we had on the show, but like I said Die Hard works because Hans Gruber is built up as something to over come. The film wouldn't work if Bruce Willis kicked his ass from pillar to post for the whole movie.

 

Name me one successful film in which the hero kicks the villain's ass for the entire running length, and I'll concede the argument.

 

Even if you switch from movies to sports as your basis of comparison, it would be a major let down if Federer vs. Nadal had been one-side demolition jobs. People don't want to see their heroes DESTROY their opponents, they want to see them overcome some formidable odds. Whichever way you spin it, the concept of the match is fundamentally retarded.

 

If people want to see their boy kick ass and only kick ass, why did Hogan bother giving heels heat segments? Why do heels have any offense at all?

[shoe]

Wrestling isn't a movie. I don't like the match for a lot if the same reasons you don't, but I get why they did what they did. They wanted their champion look strong.

[Superstar Sleeze]

From History of the WWE, "NWA World Champion Harley Race pinned Paul Figeroua at the 19-second mark with a suplex and a kneedrop to the head; prior to the bout, ring announcer Joe McHugh introduced WWF World Champion Bob Backlund, who came to the ring and shook hands with everyone, with Race firmly grabbing Backlund's hand and staring him down; Vince McMahon then briefly interviewed Backlund at ringside, where he said he was here to study Race as he no doubt would be wrestling him soon, Backlund then left, and Race was interviewed, where he said he had been chasing Backlund all over the world, and that Backlund couldn't run from him in his own back yard, and said that he was here so there would be only one world champion (the official time was mistakenly announced as 49 seconds, instead of 19)"

 

Kayfabe: This is a champion vs. champion feud. This is NOT a blood feud. This is actually different than normal face/heel dynamics Harley is looking to see who is the best says what we would think is a lie about Bob is ducking him because we are WWF fans and know that Bob ducks no man. Backlund versus Patera is a blood feud. We wanted to see Backlund eat Patera alive. The Hogan match is a normal babyface/heel match. We want to see Backlund overcome the size difference. The Race match is all about the two championships. He is the heel because he is not OUR champion. The obstacle is inherent in Harley's character he is the outside champion. Thus we want to see Backlund prove he is the best champion. It does not matter if the match sucks or if Harley gets no offense, the point is the WWF Champion is better than all champions. The fans just want to know that the money they are paying for is the best damn champion. Yes, they want to see Backlund vanquish heels and the WWF provides you that with Patera, Valentine, Patterson, Muraco, Patera, Slaughter etc... Those guys are heels designed to be blood feud opponents or multiple time opponents. Harley Race is the heel because he is the outside champion thus we just need to know our champion is better. Bob proves he is the best against tough opponents that's why we need heat segments, but when facing a rival champion Bob needs to prove he is the king of his home turf. Yes, I understand this all makes the match suck, but hey they did not always book matches to be great.

 

Non-kayfabe: Outside of the WWF TV and the 9/80 MSG match, Harley never worked NYC again that year or in 1981. There were going to be no rematches. So lets all the value out of it in one shot. Nobody is going to see this in the NWA so who cares if Harley gets fucked by our champion.

 

In the 2008 French Open final, Nadal brutalized Federer. Domination happens in real life.

[JerryvonKramer]

And the 2008 French Open final was disappointing.

 

If all the match was was an elaborate self-hype job by the WWF to put themselves and their own title over while burying the NWA, they succeeded in that aim. That doesn't excuse anything though, it only accounts for it. Why the NWA or Harley would agree to it though is beyond me -- although it's clear that the match not airing or seen by anyone beyond the 22,000 people at MSG was part of that deal.

 

It also doesn't make it any more forgivable though. Did it need 35 minutes, 9 different spots where Backlund cuts Race off, the burial of Race's piledriver, and a bladejob from Race to establish all of that and tell that story?

 

Everyone talks about "story".

 

Is "Backlund is just 100 times better than Race and so the WWF is 100 times better than the NWA" a particularly compelling story?

 

Was this the best way to tell that story?

 

Should they have been trying to tell that story?

 

You tell me.

[shoe]

Parv I believe you are short changing Kelly . He understood the concept of why they were doing it too. Plus Kelly likes the match . I don't like it for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. Though I get the concept. He'll even the promos were designed to make Bob look good. Does it make it right . No, but if their goal was to make WWF champion stronger. Their goal was accomplished.

[JerryvonKramer]

If Backlund didn't dominate every single damn match he ever had, I'd agree with you Pete. But as it was I'm not sure if it achieved anything except making Harley seem like a chump. It was the same Backlund stuff we see every week from MSG. If anything guys like Duncum probably got more time on top (10% rather than 5%). So all it does is bury Harley.

[JerryvonKramer]

We've actually got to the point where I'm just counting the days for Stan Hansen to come in and by god I hope Hansen kicks the shit out of Backlund.

[shoe]

If Backlund didn't dominate every single damn match he ever had, I'd agree with you Pete. But as it was I'm not sure if it achieved anything except making Harley seem like a chump. It was the same Backlund stuff we see every week from MSG. If anything guys like Duncum probably got more time on top (10% rather than 5%). So all it does is bury Harley.

 

I agree with everything you say here. Except to the crowd they came away feeling that Bob was the real champ. Which I think the WWF was going for.

[jdw]

09/22/80 Backlund vs Race (35:43)

Taped: Madison Square Garden, New York

From: WWE.com

 

NWA World Title vs WWF Title. Good set of boos for Harley when he's introduced, with a few claps around. Big pop for Bob as the local hero.

 

Harley gives the business to Bob before the bell, which Bob only takes so much of before wagging his index finger back at Harley and pointing out at all the fans in the Garden. Harley puts his hands on his hips, looks around, and of course the crowd is eating it up.

 

The open with some rope running and leapfrogging before Bob hits a hiptoss and a big slam on the rather large Race. Harley is great in sliding back into the corner, drapping himself across the bottom rope and getting across early that he's in for a ride.

 

A minute-twenty in and Bob slaps on the headlock. We know this is going to be a headlock-centric match, so the question is how well they work it.

 

Harley seems happy to sit in it, so Bob goes early to the torquing of it. He get Harley up off the mat, and after less than a minute in it the break it up for a highspot: a terrific Thesz Press for a surprisingly heated nearfall. Bob follows with another chunky slam before taking Harley over into a ground headlock. The headlock takeover isn't one of Harley's most graceful, probably on Bob for taking him over low. A negative is you love Harley's graceful way of eating headlock takeovers as I do. Not a negative if you enjoy some of Bob's choppiness as I do, as this come across a little naturalistic of grab a head and throw him down. I'm actually spending more time on this that it really deserves since I've been told that these two blow spots left and right, and lord knows if this is one of those dreaded "blown spots". It's actually perfectly okay, and I'm sure we're going to see plenty of Harley's patented headlock takeovers later.

 

They sit in the headlock for about forty seconds, largely Harley fifth of ginning the selling with Bob torquing the head once to encourage him to move along. Harley uses one of his favorite spots in the headlock to assist the face up into a bridge before getting dropped back on his neck and back to the mat with the headlock still being held. Harley makes just about every face look good in the spot, and Backlund looks better than most as he knows bridging like the back of his hand. If you rewind and watch it closely, they really do a great job of nailing all of the elements. Harley's move into the spots is quick and smooth. His move upward is strong, and he has his hand on Backlund's chin to sell trying to force Bob to break the headlock. Bob's bridge is really excellent, and his move over into driving Harley back down is very smooth. As always Harley adds his theatrical stylings by flaying one leg up in the air as he goes down and hits the mat. Really well done, and the crowd enjoys the spot.

 

They spend about 20 second down in the hold before Bob torques the headlock to signal "lets move along". Harley reads that to mean "lay on my back and pound the mat" before eventually rolling up to grab a fistful of Bob's hair. Bob responds by torquing the hell out of Harley's head, which gets a response out of the crowd. Overall, about another minute down in the hold before they work up to a base to mix in another high spot sequence. This time it's a hiptoss into a sunset flip for a very nice nearfall before we get one of Harley's graceful headlock takeovers for another pin attempt. Another very nice high spot sequence to break up the working of the hold, very nicely executed.

 

We get Harley's first grabbing of the trunks to roll Bob over into a pinning position, and then very little time before they follow with another bridging spot. Picture perfect again, and back down to the mat in the hold. All of this roughly within 30 seconds since the sequence peaking in the sunset flip peaked. Yes, it's headlocky, but they're picking it up a lot for nice little spots. This isn't any different from Bob's long 30+ minute matches with Hogan or Muraco or Valentine, or Race's with Lawler..

 

Of course no sooner does that through cross the mind than we get our longest spot down on the mat as Race goes deeply into fifth of gin. There's a little fistful of trunks for the roll mixed in, and a fistful of hair greeted by some quick torques. Bob tries to spur him on a few other times with the torques, but Harley's pretty content to keep it down for around 1:50. Some of the crowd is sounding a *little* annoyed near the end of it, and a little during Harley's slow walking of Bob back into the ropes. They reel everyone back in with Harley's classic I Gutwrench You, No You Gutwrench Me! spot. I'm thinking this is where people think there are blown sloppy spots as the *Ref* is sloppy in trying to get around to make the count, almost tripping over the wrestlers. But Harley and Bob are flawless on the move.

 

Slam and Harley's best eating of the headlock takeover yet, and we're back on the mat. Crowd is okay with it going back to the mat, and there aren't any signs of rebellion yet. At the moment, it's just the length of the prior one that annoyed some of the fans. Harley spends another 1:30 this time before working to a base. This time it's a cross up highspot, with Bob holding onto the ropes to cause Harley to miss a reverse roll, then Harley rolling out of the way to cause Bob to airball an elbow drop, then Bob rolling out of the way to cause Harley to header the mat on a headbutt drop. A nice change of pace on the high spots breaking up the holds before we go back into the headlock. Each one of them got a pop, the biggest for the last.

 

They break up this headlock spot with several grab of the trunks for the roll spots, with Backlund increasingly going to the "I'm Gonna Hit Him" spot playing to the crowd. Good heat from the crowd, and the ref plays his roll well. Nice touch of Race grabbing the hair, which causes the ref to move up to look at it and warn Harley, with Bob taking the opportunity to rabbit punch Harley's skull to get him to release the hair. Bob doesn't usually hit out of the "I'm Gonna Hit Him" spot.

 

Harley is back in his comfort zone and doing a little more fifth of ginning, which Bob responds to by doing a bit of "rowing" in torquing the head. About two minutes in this one before they're up. After the quicker pace of working up to highspots early, we've had three longer ones. Crowd has pretty much stayed with them, the exception being some fans at the end of the first long one.

 

Highspot sequence here starts with Harley hitting the kneelift followed by a jumping knee. He feeds Bob a vertical suplex counter, and when Bob gets him up there's that old MSG Backlund Jet Hanger Heat. It's a pretty fantastic hanging suplex as he holds Race up a long time, which is a great visual since Race is so damned big at this point. And no, that's not a knock at Harley's size as champion. I don't think it's a negative, as it makes a babyface looked damned impressive when he tosses the champ around. In this match, even things as simple as Backlund's slams look damned impressive given Harley's size playing into Backlunds typical way of "tossing" an opponent on a slam. On the hanging suplex, the visual is terrific. Anyway, Bob gets a two count off it, with Harley laying deep into it before kicking out to draw a good "oh!" from the crowd.

 

It's back down into the headlock. A nice handful of trucks for the roll spot, with Bob working the bicycle strongly to sell it while in the roll and then threatening to punch him again afterward to show how pissed off he was. But after that it's fifth of gin, and this is the first time they lose a decent chunk of the crowd. We get some strong whistles about a minute into it, and what's funny is that Bob picks up on it, looks around the crowd, and starts torquing the headlock. Harley is kind of oblivious to it, flops from his side to his back, which seems to only annoy the whistlers more. All told, a bit over two minutes before Harley starts moving to a vertical base. We're about 16:30 into the match, and you're starting to get a sense that the match may just go off the rails.

 

Except that their highspot this time is the abdominal stretch, which amazingly instantly pops the crowd. Bob actually works the hell out of it to keep the crowd into it until Harley is finally able to flip him off. Harley is fantastic in staggering around the ring holding his back, only to come around and see Bob still prone on the mat with his own stagger leading him right into position to drop his knee right on Bob's forehead. Harley follows up with another theatrical one. Bob does a good job of selling the damage before Harley pulls him up for a vertical suplex. It's spot of the decade time as Bob nicely floats over and behind, graps a waistlock and hits a great German Suplex for a two count with Harley beautiful rolling out of the pin adding the finishing touches.

 

Bob airballs an elbow drop, but takes Harley back down with the headlock takeover when Race doesn't take the lead. They spend another two minutes in it. They keep the crowd through the first half of it with Bob theatrical going to a long series of torquing the head and another grab of the tights by Race for the rollover. They do lose them for the second half of it when Race flops onto his back. Fewer whistles than the last one, but there is one noticable fan calling "Come on!" at Race.

 

Up on their feet, a couple of punches before Bob grabs the head again, but this is just to feed Harley the backdrop suplex. We're exactly 22 minutes in when Harley hits it. Harley looks to press the advantage with a nice kneedrop followed by going up to the top to get thrown off the top. This is the NWA Champ, we shouldn't be surprised.

 

Backlund follows with one of his best atomic drops ever, with Race's size again making for a great visual as Bob holds him up for a long time before dropping him down. As expected, Harley flings himself over the top to the floor. This of course is COR time since that's how these things always end, we're now 23 minutes in and Bob just hit his finisher. Thankfully Bob breaks the count several times.

 

Back in the ring, classic NWA Champ Begging Off, which we now know goes all the way back to Lou Thezs himself. Bob calls him out to the middle, but since Harley is working NWA Champ Style here rather than WWF Heel Style, he forces Bob to come into the corner to kick the shit out of him so that he can go with a nice NWA Champ Style Transition in the corner. Harley uses a headbutt to the gut, and Bob sells the shit out of it. The great thing about it if you watch closely is that in his theatrical selling of the hold, Bob eventually ends up on his side with his head in perfect position for Race to use very little effort to drop his knee right on Bob's skull. I'm guessing this is one of those sloppy, blown spots: positioning yourself to be give your opponent one of his favorite spots effortlessly.

 

Harley hits another kneedrop to Bob's skull, lining it up methodically before going for the cover. Bob kicks out at one because you never can trust an NWA Champ not to double cross your own title out of you. This is Harley's big flurry of offense: a very nice piledriver, a headbutt drop, a swank kneelift to the skull and another, more theatrical headbutt drop. He sets for another piledriver, but since he already hit it, we know that Bob's going to backbody dropped out of it. Sure enough he does, and... BOB DRIVER~! And what a kickass Bob Driver it is, splatting Harley good and getting a huge pop for the Garden crowd. Harley is laid out before Bob's legs, so Bob eventually simply rolls over onto his stomach using his legs to roll Harley as well for the cover. Fantastic nearfall.

 

Harley kneelifts Bob's head off before airballing a driving headbutt off the second rope for another strong pop. Bob goes for a cover, but Harley gets his foot on the ropes. Double knockdown sends Harley to the floor, and it's DCOR time for sure now. No, Harley dives back in under the ropes. Bob nails a nice legdrop right for a double pin, with both rolling their shoulders out at two. They have a nice spot of Bob hooking the underhook, Harley fighting to keep from eating it, before Bob finally hoisted him up and over to launch him with the double arm suplex. Another good cover and two count from this. Did I mention strong heat and buzz through almost all of this since Harley hit his backdrop to end the headlock section back at the 22 minute mark?

 

A little fists of fury before Harley goes low and we get a good Bob splat with Bob tossing himself to the floor. Bob crawls up onto the apron so that Harley can bounce his head off the ringpost. Of course juices himself, which means we know what comes next. Harley nicely pops Bob back into the ring while staying on the apron. He pulls Bob back up and lines him up to run him into the post, but of course gets countered when Bob coolly smacks him in the back of the skull driving Harley skull first into the post. Harley splats to the floor and goes to work on his forehead with the blade. A good job of getting face juice then following up with a theatrical way of getting payback heel juice.

 

If we didn't know that Harley was under the apron slicing himself, *this* would look like the COR spot. But no, he pops up and dives under the ropes to beat the count. Bob goes to town on the cut, with the ref checking Bob's cut to see if he needs to stop the match. The buzz in the crowd is stronger, and there's quite a few noticable standing. Fists o' fury on their feet with Bob hitting a backbreaker (where they hell did he pull that one out of the Backlund Big Book Of Moves) for a jet hanger heat cover that the crowd thinks is it. Seriously, the crowd at this point is thinking Backlund is going to win the NWA Title.

 

We get some shitty WWE.com black & white because of a close up on Harley's forehead. For fuck's sake, I'm paying $4.99 a month for this, show me the damned match in color.

 

Bob nails a neckbreaker for another strong nearfall. He whips Race into the corner and nails a terrific gutwrench for another jet hanger pop and a nearfall. Harley tries for a vertical suplex, Bob floats over again and slaps on a sleeper which the crowd goes nuts for. Race gets one hand on the rope, which the WWF ref kicks off for a big pop and crowd is REALLY thinking Bob wins as Harley goes down for the "raise the arm" spot. When it goes down a second time, you can see a fan past the turnbuckle jumping up and down because this is it.

 

When the arm is raised the third time, Harley grabs the ref and pulls him foreward into a headbutt to knock him down. Bob releases the hold, the ref shakes off the headlock and signals for the bell to be rung. The ref raises Bob's hands and the crowd goes REALLY BATSHIT. If Backlund-Patera is A+ batshit level crowd pop of the era, this is a strong A. Heavy boos for Race holding up his belt that he retains, but even after the crowd knows each are keeping their belts, they pop big for Backlund hopping on the ropes as the winner.

 

Breaking up the match in sections:

 

A - the opening minute and a half was good establishing the local hero and the typical touring NWA Champ

 

B - the first four minutes of headlock work was quite well done with shorter sections in the hold before bringing up for a highspot sequence before taking it back down

 

C - the next ten minutes see them work longer headlock segments between highspots, eventually getting a round of whistles about 15:30 into the match.

 

D - They have about another 6:30 of headlocks segements after the whistles first appear. The crowd never seems as lost as it was in the whistle section, but it's also not terribly into the headlock anymore.

 

E - They work to the finish for a bit under 14 minutes from Harley's backdrop to end headlock section

 

C & D are what almost certainly turn off folks who don't like this match: 16:30 of long headlock segments. The opening and the shorter headlock sections are quite solid, and the headlocks are broken up quickly enough into short segements. After that, it overstays its welcome.

 

I wouldn't disagree with that entirely, but I would point out three things:

 

* even in that roughly 16:30 of longer headlock segments, the crowd is back with the workers for every highspot sequence

 

To a degree, one wishes they simply kept picking it up after a minute as they did earlier as it would have kepts the headlock segements from dragging on too long. In theory one wishes Harley had a section on top working a hold, but working hold segments never was Harley's strong point in this era. He's repetative with them and not terribly interesting. The Lawler match gets mindnumber at times because of the repetative nature of things. Still, when Bob and Harley picked it up between segements, they very quickly had the crowd in the palm of their hands.

 

 

* those highspot sequences in that section range from "good" to "fantastic"

 

- I Gutwrench You, No You Gutwrench Me!

- Cross ups of reverse roll, elbow drop, headbutt drop

- vertical suplex counter into hanging vertical suplex

- abdominal stretch --> kneedrops --> vertical suplex floatover --> German Suplex

 

The final segement transitioned out with Harley's backdrop suplex that started the run to the finish.

 

The Cross Ups sequence was a good change of pace from the other highspot sequences they broke up the headlocks. The two standard Harley Suplex Counter Spots are both very good ones that we'd still see getting pops in 1987 in the elmination tag match. The whole ab-stretch to german suplex sequence runs the gamut from good to very good to fantastic.

 

It's worth taking a pause to consider that during the "boring" headlock wears out its welcome section of the match, the two still delivered that stuff. It wasn't tossed out in the fashion of "let's do a table spot" masturbatory moves. Instead, Race tried to get out of the headlock, Backlund ended up getting the advantage, nailed a move to try to win, Race kicked out and Bob took him down to wear him out more as Race wasn't quite ready to be put away. The attempts got heat from the crowd, and they weren't upset when it was initially taken back down to the mat. It's when a segement stayed on the mat too long, and Race ginned it up too much, that a segment would hit the wall. But as soon as it was up, the crowd was there for them.

 

* the final run to the finish is nearly 14 minutes of fantastic stuff

 

It's just a really loaded and long run to the finish, and the crowd is there with them thinking they're going to see a title change. We've seen good Backlund matches where they've worked good spots for 15-20 minutes and then gone 1-2 minutes to the finish. I'd have to take a look back at the time, but the great matche between Bob and Rose in the Garden didn't have that long of a section to the end. Of course this match didn't have a base of a match on par with Bob-Buddy. On the other hand, the run to the finish in this match was only about 6:30 shorter than the *entire* Bob-Buddy match. "Midnight" on this match was the Atomic Drop, which could have lead to a count out. They went a good 12:30 past the Atomic Drop, and if you were in the building that night and not entirely jaded about it being a COR/DQ/DCOR/DDQ finish, you'd be on the edge of your seat wondering which of Bob's moves/spots was going to bring home the title.

 

One of the other things that could get criticism is that it's the Bob Show dominating Harley, and that Harley kept a ton of stuff in the holster. I wouldn't disagree with that description of the match. But it's probably best to look at context. This isn't Bob vs Harley in Japan or St. Louis where your might run a champion vs champion match between the two on nearly equal terms, though likely to favor Backlund to a degree as the more obvious babyface and Harley's comfort in playing heel. This is the WWF. Bob is the Local Hero. Harley is the Touring NWA Champ coming into town to defend his title. He's already bitched out in this building to Dusty. He works this match pretty much spot on as Touring NWA Champ here to make the Local Boy look great. The slight difference here compared to him working with say the Von Erics is that Bob doesn't really need Harley to carry large sections of the match with Harley's Big Book Of Moves because Bob can fill space with stuff. So Harley gets to focus on being the stooge NWA Champ, which is a massive component of the NWA Champ by this point in time.

 

Would I have liked to have seen a chunk of the headlock pitched and instead 4-5 minutes of Harley "breaking down" Bob? Sure. But I also would have liked to have seen this 2/3 falls over these 35 minutes where the breaking down could be the 2nd fall. Didn't get it booked for either of those things. I suspect these two have a better match in them in a different setting and with different booking and layout. But for this building, despite the issues in the headlock segments that went to long, the two played their roles well enough that the place was going pretty damn nutter down the long stretch.

 

The sloppy and/or blown spots criticism is something that appears to me to be errant. I was open to it on rewatching it to write this up, but just didn't see it, especially not where it was the primary criticism tossed at the match. The DVDVR set match against Koloff is an example of a sloppy mess of a match, though it rather staggeringly made the cut as one of the best 100 WWF matches of the 80s. I think when one looks at the two matches, it's not to difficult to see the sloppy mess.

 

I'd definately recommend it. It's historic and is loaded good stuff. It has great heat early, down the long stretch and in the highspot sequences throughout. While the two don't hit it off well on the mat or working the holds, that just isn't Race's strong point. Race's strength is in "spots" (and not just "moves), and the two work spots together very well and pretty much state of the art for the setting.

 

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't actually disagree that the high spots were good and that the action itself was well executed and cool. But you can see my problem with the match. I still don't understand why the context excuses anything. It accounts for it, but does it justify it?

 

And was Bob really that good at working his spots that he didn't need a Harley control segment? The 18-minute+ headlock suggests to me that he didn't have a 101 ideas of how to fill that space.

 

Is the conclusion of all this that WWF fans just wanted to see their champ kick the NWA's champ ass for 35 minutes straight, cutting off any and all attempts at a transition, winning any and all 50-50s and giving the NWA champ no heat segment?

 

If that's what WWF fans really wanted in 1980, then I don't like WWF fans of this period. But I don't actually believe that's what they wanted to see or that wrestling fans in general want to watch very very one-sided matches, especially those with supposedly high stakes.

[shoe]

John I'm not a fan of the match. I really liked the headlock work mixed in with the Highspots. The cut offs were well done. My problem is I thought they were milking the cutoffs to building to Harley getting to kick some ass. We never got it so the match felt hollow to me . I felt they didn't do it was because they were establishing Bob as the superior champ. I get that. The finishing run was good. I feel if Harley got a true heat sequence I would have liked the match more. I watched it again for a 3rd time and liked it better than my 1st 2 viewings. Though it still is a flawed match. 2 3/4 * maybe 3. Mechanically the match was fine. I just felt the story was lacking.

[jdw]

I don't actually disagree that the high spots were good and that the action itself was well executed and cool. But you can see my problem with the match. I still don't understand why the context excuses anything. It accounts for it, but does it justify it?

Not sure if it justifies it. Does explain some of it.

 

Dusty-Harley in MSG had a lot of Dusty kicking the crap out of Harley, and not as much Harley kicking the crap out of Dusty as I would have liked. But... it was pretty much Harley working as a touring NWA champ with Dusty the face in New York coming off his 1977-78 run there.

 

 

 

And was Bob really that good at working his spots that he didn't need a Harley control segment? The 18-minute+ headlock suggests to me that he didn't have a 101 ideas of how to fill that space.

 

 

I said somewhere in there that:

 

In theory one wishes Harley had a section on top working a hold, but working hold segments never was Harley's strong point in this era. He's repetative with them and not terribly interesting. The Lawler match gets mindnumber at times because of the repetative nature of things.

 

Later on I mentioned that I wouldn't have minded 4-5 minutes of the headlock pitched and instead have Harley "break him down", which is less Harley working control with holds but instead getting his shit in as far as his impacty moves.

 

I would have liked to have seen it. But I kind of get why it wasn't there.

 

 

Is the conclusion of all this that WWF fans just wanted to see their champ kick the NWA's champ ass for 35 minutes straight, cutting off any and all attempts at a transition, winning any and all 50-50s and giving the NWA champ no heat segment?

I don't know if it's just want they wanted to see. I think we'd agree that the fans do pop when Bob takes it to Harley, and are going pretty batshit down the stretch for Bob kicking the crap out of Harley. It's not the perfect Bob-Harley that I would have liked, but it's hard to say that it wasn't effective.

 

It's a bit like Hogan working matches 1984-89. Not my preferred cup of tea, but I've come to see it as being very effective in giving the fans what they want.

 

Bob-Harley was pretty effective. The exception would be the stretch where they lost the crowd going back to the headlock (where the was vocal unhappiness from the crowd). But before and after that moment, even within the segment that was headlock dominated, they did get the crowd into it when they picked it up for a spot or highspot or sequence of spots/highspots.

 

That's one of the dichotomies of the match: the headlock is repetitive as all hell, the crowd gets tired of it, but the two wrap around it a lot of spots/highspots that pop the crowd... and when you review what the spots were, they were pretty damn cool in the context of the 1977-83 time period in the US.

 

If that's what WWF fans really wanted in 1980, then I don't like WWF fans of this period. But I don't actually believe that's what they wanted to see or that wrestling fans in general want to watch very very one-sided matches, especially those with supposedly high stakes.

I think fans were perfectly happy to see one sides matches if Their Face was kicking the crap out of That Heel Guy.

 

Bob kicked the crap out of Sarge in the Philly cage match. Sarge did get some stuff in, largely by popping Bob in the balls. But it really was a major ass kicking, and I'm not sure if it was close to 67/33 if timed out, and probably a lot less in actually doing stuff.

 

I'm not sure if this is that uncommon for most "sports" fans. Most people don't want to watch United beat Stoke 5-0. But United Fans like myself would eat that up. Every game doesn't need to be the 1999 United vs Munchen Champions League Final to entertain the partisan fan.

 

As I wrote, I would far prefer to have see their 2/3 falls match from St Louis that year. Perhaps it sucked, with them botching stuff left and right. But I think their styles probably would have worked best breaking up this 35 into 3 falls where they each get a fall, they have three different periods to build to finishes, and by losing a fall make it as though Bob is in some Peril.

 

Actually would really like to see them have worked in Japan in a 2/3 fall title match in this time period. That probably would have been something as long as they kept it in this length or a bit shorter rather than going 60.

 

John

[Loss]

Without having seen the match, it sure sounds like we have a case of Harley "playing the bitch".

[shoe]

Without having seen the match, it sure sounds like we have a case of Harley "playing the bitch".

 

Totally.

[jdw]

John I'm not a fan of the match. I really liked the headlock work mixed in with the Highspots. The cut offs were well done. My problem is I thought they were milking the cutoffs to building to Harley getting to kick some ass. We never got it so the match felt hollow to me.

For it to really appeal strongly to me, I tend to agree that they needed Harley taking it to Bob with a run of busting his shit out. I would have liked to see their match in a non-WWF territory to see if we got that.

 

My only point in the review was that despite that lack of appeal specifically to me, it was a pretty effective match. In a 35 minute match, they lost the crowd for a very short period. In turn, they kept drawing the crowd back in and popping them. Then there was that 14 minute stretch to the finish after Harley backdropped out of the headlock section, and that's a pretty rare length of time in a WWF Backlund match... and it did have the crowd rocking by the end.

 

I wouldn't say it's a flawed masterpiece, but instead probably a "flawed good" or "flawed really good" match. There's a lot of good stuff in it, and the crowd was into most of it, especially the home stretch.

 

 

 

I felt they didn't do it was because they were establishing Bob as the superior champ. I get that. The finishing run was good. I feel if Harley got a true heat sequence I would have liked the match more. I watched it again for a 3rd time and liked it better than my 1st 2 viewings. Though it still is a flawed match. 2 3/4 * maybe 3. Mechanically the match was fine. I just felt the story was lacking.

Agree on all of that. I have it as a "good match", which is the equiv of ***. I'd recommend it for the reason I think I hit in the original walk through:

 

I'd definately recommend it. It's historic and is loaded good stuff. It has great heat early, down the long stretch and in the highspot sequences throughout. While the two don't hit it off well on the mat or working the holds, that just isn't Race's strong point. Race's strength is in "spots" (and not just "moves), and the two work spots together very well and pretty much state of the art for the setting.

 

Which I think is pretty fair.

 

It's not the 7/78 Inoki vs Backlund, or even the 5/80 Bob-Patera, or a lot of other Bob matches I like more. Certainly not the 6/78 Harley-Jumbo, or even some of those Harley-Baba matches that are surprisingly really fun. But it's worth watching, and there's a load of really good stuff in it.

 

John

[jdw]

Without having seen the match, it sure sounds like we have a case of Harley "playing the bitch".

Oh for sure.

 

Though I don't think the ref shoved him down.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

It's possibly the most extreme case of "playing the bitch" of all time though. I do think Backlund has a problem showing weakness and vulnerability. It's starting to be a major problem for me watching his matches.

 

Bruno didn't. Hogan didn't. But Backlund might just be "the strongest" babyface I've ever seen. He doesn't give his opponents much. There are times when I think even guys like The Road Warriors gave heels more.

 

So my biggest disappointment with this match was that it so crushingly confirmed every expectation I had going into it. I knew Bob wouldn't give Harley anything and I knew Harley would bitch himself out. That's one of the reasons I took against it so much.

 

I'm extremely interested to see what Stan Hansen does with Backlund now in 1981. Hansen FORCED Inoki to sell for him in that series of matches. I want to see him do the same with Backlund.

[shoe]

The Sammartino point is interesting. I will agree in the Larry Z feud he did sell for Larry. In a few if the matches we watched Bruno took a lot of the match. Volkoff comes to mind. When we watch the 70's footage I think we'll have a more rounded look at Bruno. My take Bruno would sell for people he respected. Some of the others were out on their own. Again though I'm open minded enough to wait to the 70's stuff to draw conclusions . He seems willing to Sell for Superstar Graham, Spiros Arion not so much.

[JerryvonKramer]

Ivan Koloff is a very "underneath" sort of worker though, at least what I've seen of him. It will be interesting to see if Bruno as champ worked as dominant as Backlund.

[jdw]

Bob is more than willing to sell and be controlled. It's kind of funny to watch him force Muraco to work in controlling him. I'm sure that's going to get the old, "How do we know Bob was forcing Muraco to work?!?!" spot... except now everyone has watched a ton of Muraco laying around doing dick against opponent after opponent after opponent, and that his matches with Bob was pretty much exceptions to the Muraco Rule.

 

Anyway, in their 1981 MSG Death Match, Don controls a good chunk of the early match, both with the old beat down and then working holds. Bob sells his ass off for Don before getting his payback control section. In their "hour" draw in Philly that same year, the match broke down:

 

Six Minutes: Stalling & Feeling Out

Four Minutes: Muraco works the Head

Seven Minutes: Backlund works the Arm

Nine Minutes: Muraco works the Stomach

Seven Minutes: Bob works the Head

Ten Minutes: Don works the Leg

Six Minutes: Bob works the Leg

Five Minutes: Don works Neck

One Minutes: Work to the Finish

 

Bob let Don control just as much of the match as he did, as they worked to fill the time.

 

Taking 1980, he let Patera control him in both of the existing MSG matches, and sold his ass off for Ken. He sold for Hogan in the 30 minute match in Philly. He sells a good deal for Khan to close the year, and the match is quite bad when Khan is on top. The Slaughter match in MSG has a long Backlund control section that drags, but Slaughter needs to eat some of the blame there because it's really more Mid Atlantic in how the control is worked that we typically see from Bob. The Larry match that I've seen from Philly... the big thing I recall is Larry stalling his ass off, and I tend to hate that when he's not in there with Bruno.

 

Bob-Harley is really just how the two chose to work.

 

Matches hit people different ways. Some people think the Harley-Lawler draw is a classic match. I thought too much of it was overly repetitive and dragged. In turn, I've grown to enjoy some of Bob's goofy shit.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

I've seen most of those matches jdw.

 

Hogan vs. Backlund is worked as a "clash of the titans" sort of deal. I'm not sure that Backlund sold his ass off for Hogan. Felt more like irresistible force meeting immovable object to me. Closest thing to a carry job I've seen from him so far though.

 

In the Patera matches, Backlund hardly stopped struggling during Ken's sequences on top. I also had a problem with his goofy-as-hell selling of the bearhug, but that's just me. I guess the point with those is that even when he's selling, Backlund isn't really showing much vulnerability.

 

Larry match I don't think I've seen, or at least I can't recall it. I'm not sure if Khan made the set. Slaughter stuff coming up.

 

I guess I just don't enjoy the way he works during heat segments (if he actually allows them to happen). I've been in the minority with Backlund for the past 5 months now though, so this is nothing new.

[shoe]

Kahn and Larry are coming up Parv.

[jdw]

I've seen most of those matches jdw.

 

Hogan vs. Backlund is worked as a "clash of the titans" sort of deal. I'm not sure that Backlund sold his ass off for Hogan. Felt more like irresistible force meeting immovable object to me. Closest thing to a carry job I've seen from him so far though.

I didn't see that as a clash of the titans. Patera was the more pushed guy, and here is Bob working another Bob vs Big Guy match. It's kind of broken down into (i) Hogan gambits that Bob has the answer two, (ii) Bob in control, (iii) Bob In Peril with Hogan working the arm (and doing surprisingly good work with it), (iv) Bob In Peril in the Bearhug, and (v) work to the finish. I thought the highlight was Bob kicking out of the vert suplex, laying in way deep for an excellent near fall. Hogan's two Bob In Peril section where longer than Bob's control of Hogan.

 

Really good match, both looked good, really loved Hogan's work of the arm at a level that no one probably expected when first watching the match.

 

 

In the Patera matches, Backlund hardly stopped struggling during Ken's sequences on top. I also had a problem with his goofy-as-hell selling of the bearhug, but that's just me. I guess the point with those is that even when he's selling, Backlund isn't really showing much vulnerability.

I don't see what's wrong with struggling when someone is putting a hold on you. That's the thing with Bob: he wants you to work when he has a hold on you, and he's going to work when you have one on him. If you lay around too long, he's going to force the action, even if the result is being taken down into the hold after a "I'm Almost Out!" moment.

 

Larry match I don't think I've seen, or at least I can't recall it.

It's not good.

 

 

I'm not sure if Khan made the set.

The MSG match is mediocre, and disappointing. Khan can be hit and miss, but I had some hope that this would be watchable.

 

They do have a rematch in Philly that I have laying around but have never gotten around to watching. About 3:30 to 4:00 longer. Sometimes the Philly matches are better (Bob vs Sarge), some times worse (Bob vs Pat), and sometimes different (Bob vs Jesse). The Bob vs Jesse is actually interesting because it's longer, and Jesse is forced to work a bit more. Not great~! but certainly interesting and watchable for being something more than the MSG match.

 

Slaughter stuff coming up.

Good stuff.

 

I guess I just don't enjoy the way he works during heat segments (if he actually allows them to happen). I've been in the minority with Backlund for the past 5 months now though, so this is nothing new.

Bob's in peril in so many of his matches, and has such a regular bag of tricks to use, that ages ago we coined the term Bob In Peril. He gets in trouble, and he tries to work his way out of it. That's old school wrestling rather than just taking a beat down and then pulling a comeback out of the air (say Dusty style, or in the WWF it being Pedro style). One of Bob's gimmicks in the ring was that if you put him in a hold, he'd have ways to try to get out.

 

Billy Robinson was similar, to the point you'd love to see someone put him in a hold and it was time for the Billymatic where he's pull something out of his ear to make the opponent end up holding nothing or being countered. Fun old school stuff.

 

That's kind of why I'd often riff on Mid Atlantic Hold Work, where how you would get out of a hold was to get to a base and throw the opponent into the ropes... or back him into the ropes. Not terribly technical stuff.

[jdw]

Hmm... looks like the Bob vs Khan from Philly didn't make the cut. That doesn't bode well for it. On the other hand, the Bob vs Jess from Philly doesn't appear to be on, and I liked that more than their MSG that was 7:30 shorter (one of those things that supports Shoe's longer = better point). So... still hold out hope that Bob-Khan in Philly doesn't suck as much as the MSG match.

 

John

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah we've talked about this. I feel like I'm trained as a fan to expect beat downs in the heat section that build sympathy for the babyface before a comeback a la Dusty, Hogan, Ricky Morton, Steamboat, take your pick.

 

The psychology of a Bob match is different. He's seldom in the business of generating what we'd usually call "sympathy" because he doesn't stay down long enough. To an extent, I think he has this in common with Inoki. That "constant struggle" way of working is not really to my tastes because I still don't understand the psychology of it or what it's meant to achieve. I said it before, it's babyface as Scrappy Doo and, well, Scrappy Doo is annoying and sucks.

 

Bob is better at taking matwork than he is at selling high spots I think. That "struggle" keeps matwork interesting if he's on the receiving end and strikes me as "more realistic" than when guys just sit there in the hold. That's a plus for Bob. And guys like Robinson and Bockwinkel do all that sort of thing well too.

 

My problem with the "vulnerability" comes more when he's eating big suplexes or piledrivers and then giving the guy a 1-count. Or where he's straight back up and getting his own shit in. Kurt Angle catches a lot of flack around this parts for that sort of thing, but I think Backlund is occasionally guilty of it.

 

In this Race match we're talking about, for example, Race has about a minute on offense during which he gives Backlund a piledriver and he shrugs it off as if nothing happened. That's the sort of thing I have a problem with. Backlund's "lemme at 'im" approach to selling works for matwork, I'm not sure it works for taking big bombs.