El Dandy

[Loss]

I think people tend to overvalue "violent wars," and excuse a lack of a strong narrative in them where they wouldn't in other matches that were laid out the same but with different tools used, but I'll certainly agree that this isn't the place for the discussion.

 

I think the visceral impact of watching wrestling matters. If a match can be delivered with effective visuals, that counts for something, even if it's not enough to carry a match on its own.

[Childs]

 

Another question based on your statements Parv: I get that lucha hasn't punched your favorite buttons, and that's fine. But do you really watch, say, 1986 NWA and 1995 All Japan with the exact same standards and expectations?

That seems impossible to me, or at least a difficult way to maximize your enjoyment of either. But maybe you really are able to maintain that. Or is it more that you know what you like and a style has to check a certain number of your boxes to work for you? I don't think that's the same as judging every match by identical standards.

I'm interested by why that seems impossible to you.

 

To me Flair vs. Garvin -- to give just one example -- is as hard hitting as anything All Japan 95 can throw up. I feel like I judge across NWA and All Japan pretty fairly and evenly and hold them to exactly the same standards.

 

I do not believe All Japan 95 has different (as in higher) standards to 80s Crockett or even 80s All Japan. The guys tend to do more stuff and the style is towards excess, but I do not see Misawa and co as working on another plane to Jumbo, Choshu, Yatsu and co in 86, or Flair and Steamboat in 89, or Flair in general. They are all in the same sort of ball park to me. Billy Robinson in the 70s is also right there too.

 

I don't feel like I have to adjust anything watching any of that stuff. Ditto with Mid-South. I judge WWF stuff against all of that, and mostly it is found wanting because of the limitations put on the guys. AWA on the whole is not on a par with NWA or AJ either.

 

Each of those promotions had their own quirks, but there is enough commonality that I can compare across. I mean you get a lot of the same workers across them too at different times, which demonstrates the point.

 

World of Sport is a weird case and I often find it strange applying star ratings to those matches, or comparing guys who worked that style to any of the above. It seems to stand alone and be its own thing.

 

But generally, whether the date on the match is 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, or 2012, I judge it in exactly the same way. I don't really change what I'm looking for.

 

I mean, Pete and Johnny have accused me of being too fixed in my views of what makes good wrestling before in many arguments over Bob Backlund matches. I thought he worked too strong, was selfish and guzzled his challengers. They argued that you have to make allowances for the New York style and that I want every babyface to be Ricky Steamboat. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture.

 

I think I've always been quite consistent on this.

I don't see them as working on a higher plane either. But take your Flair-Garvin example. Their matches were exceptionally hard hitting in the context of '85-'87 Crockett. So when I watch them, I'm impressed by the way they push past the standards of their promotion. Stick those same matches in '95 AJPW or '93 WAR-NJ and they'd still be rugged, exciting affairs, but the stiffness wouldn't stand out.

 

Take Flair as a worker in general (can of worms alert). If you compare his offense to prime Misawa's offense without any contextualizing, you almost have to conclude that Flair's attack was shit (or at least primitive). But situated in his time and place, Ric's offense was perfectly good. He hit hard, tossed in some nice suplexes, etc.

 

I can't imagine watching wrestling without making those adjustments.

 

Same thing with real sports. Stick LeBron James in the 1960s NBA and he would have seemed like a space alien. Does that mean he's automatically better than anyone who played then? Not to me.

 

I'm not suggesting you're being disingenuous. Your GWE approach seemed similar--set your bar and judge everyone against it. It would just be a foreign way for me to watch wrestling, and I'd enjoy a lot of workers and matches less.

[Matt D]

 

 

I think people tend to overvalue "violent wars," and excuse a lack of a strong narrative in them where they wouldn't in other matches that were laid out the same but with different tools used, but I'll certainly agree that this isn't the place for the discussion.

I think the visceral impact of watching wrestling matters. If a match can be delivered with effective visuals, that counts for something, even if it's not enough to carry a match on its own.

Sure, it counts for the 45th best AWA match of the 80s.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

 

Another question based on your statements Parv: I get that lucha hasn't punched your favorite buttons, and that's fine. But do you really watch, say, 1986 NWA and 1995 All Japan with the exact same standards and expectations?

That seems impossible to me, or at least a difficult way to maximize your enjoyment of either. But maybe you really are able to maintain that. Or is it more that you know what you like and a style has to check a certain number of your boxes to work for you? I don't think that's the same as judging every match by identical standards.

I'm interested by why that seems impossible to you.

To me Flair vs. Garvin -- to give just one example -- is as hard hitting as anything All Japan 95 can throw up. I feel like I judge across NWA and All Japan pretty fairly and evenly and hold them to exactly the same standards.

I do not believe All Japan 95 has different (as in higher) standards to 80s Crockett or even 80s All Japan. The guys tend to do more stuff and the style is towards excess, but I do not see Misawa and co as working on another plane to Jumbo, Choshu, Yatsu and co in 86, or Flair and Steamboat in 89, or Flair in general. They are all in the same sort of ball park to me. Billy Robinson in the 70s is also right there too.

I don't feel like I have to adjust anything watching any of that stuff. Ditto with Mid-South. I judge WWF stuff against all of that, and mostly it is found wanting because of the limitations put on the guys. AWA on the whole is not on a par with NWA or AJ either.

Each of those promotions had their own quirks, but there is enough commonality that I can compare across. I mean you get a lot of the same workers across them too at different times, which demonstrates the point.

World of Sport is a weird case and I often find it strange applying star ratings to those matches, or comparing guys who worked that style to any of the above. It seems to stand alone and be its own thing.

But generally, whether the date on the match is 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, or 2012, I judge it in exactly the same way. I don't really change what I'm looking for.

I mean, Pete and Johnny have accused me of being too fixed in my views of what makes good wrestling before in many arguments over Bob Backlund matches. I thought he worked too strong, was selfish and guzzled his challengers. They argued that you have to make allowances for the New York style and that I want every babyface to be Ricky Steamboat. I'm simplifying, but you get the picture.

I think I've always been quite consistent on this.

I don't see them as working on a higher plane either. But take your Flair-Garvin example. Their matches were exceptionally hard hitting in the context of '85-'87 Crockett. So when I watch them, I'm impressed by the way they push past the standards of their promotion. Stick those same matches in '95 AJPW or '93 WAR-NJ and they'd still be rugged, exciting affairs, but the stiffness wouldn't stand out.

Take Flair as a worker in general (can of worms alert). If you compare his offense to prime Misawa's offense without any contextualizing, you almost have to conclude that Flair's attack was shit (or at least primitive). But situated in his time and place, Ric's offense was perfectly good. He hit hard, tossed in some nice suplexes, etc.

I can't imagine watching wrestling without making those adjustments.

Same thing with real sports. Stick LeBron James in the 1960s NBA and he would have seemed like a space alien. Does that mean he's automatically better than anyone who played then? Not to me.

I'm not suggesting you're being disingenuous. Your GWE approach seemed similar--set your bar and judge everyone against it. It would just be a foreign way for me to watch wrestling, and I'd enjoy a lot of workers and matches less.

I've never really relativised in this way. Which is why Tiger Mask matches in 1982 fall flat, even if he was doing some "holy shit" stuff in the context of that time and place.

 

I tend to dislike making allowances for context because it has a weird "theory of progress" implied in it, one which Dave Meltzer and Joe Lanza have both argued for in the past.

 

It implies a 5-star match in 1978 is somehow less than one in 2015.

[ohtani's jacket]

Parv, all your examples are of heavyweights, but Dandy and Azteca were a pair of middleweights. It seems to me that most of your standards are based on (men's) heavyweight wrestling. Surely, there needs to be allowances made for other weight classes.

[Loss]

He's not really advocating something all that radical. If you've ever declared a match a MOTYC, you've already compared it to all wrestling in all weight classes all over the world and made a judgment that it's better than most.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not sure that the weight class would really excuse any of my problems with the ten minutes I highlighted. But each and every one of those problems has been dismissed or explained away by defenders of that match, so that's all fine.

 

I mean, I feel like I've seen Mike Graham matches with better matwork and better psychology than Dandy vs Azteca, and know I've given a couple of Graham matches a higher rating. I also happen to think Mike Graham mostly sucks and is boring. But at least he knew how to work a believable looking chinlock, unlike Azteca.

 

I don't think I'm really going to come round because my distaste for the elements I pointed out are too great. But it is also just one match. I am going to watch some Satanico, Casas and Blue Panther as soon as I have some time to watch wrestling again.

[ohtani's jacket]

They wrestle an entirely different sort of match because of their weight class. You wouldn't see a pair of lucha heavyweights have that same match. In regard to your criticisms, it's simply a matter of whether they're fair or not. If you claim a worker released a hold by rolling over and there was actually a counter then no matter how snug the work is that's not a fair criticism.

[JerryvonKramer]

It seems pretty subjective. You and the chap from the other board did not defend on the same points or agree on all points. Was that chinlock by Azteca loose and terrible, or as the chap said, is that what it's meant to look like?

 

I will say that I found the exercise interesting.

[Childs]

He's not really advocating something all that radical. If you've ever declared a match a MOTYC, you've already compared it to all wrestling in all weight classes all over the world and made a judgment that it's better than most.

Sure. But when you were making your top 100 lists for the '90s, did you not adjust for the fact that Tamura was going for something different than Toyota who was going for something different than Kawada? You ultimately have to decide what you like best across styles. But don't you need to operate off some understanding of what a worker was attempting/achieving in his/her own context?

[Loss]

I don't know, I probably did. But in the end, all wrestlers are just working to get a desired reaction from a specific audience. Two matches can be wildly different, and the match that does that in a better and more interesting way is usually (not always) the better match. I don't expect the same moves and holds from Toyota or Kawada that I do Tamura, but I expect them all to be equally in tune with their setting. So I guess we aren't that far apart.

[GOTNW]

The problem I have with Parv is he doesn't really watch wrestling with the intention to understand it but rather to form some kind of a quasi elitist completist best of, very much like a Rolling Stone critic. If you don't think the Velvet Underground And Nico is among the top xx albums you ranking it like it is is disingenuous. Ditto El Dandy or whatever famous wrestler we all think rules but you don't. I do think it's that great (and would have it like top three at worst)-but once you see what other stuff I'm into it's blatant why I hold it in such high esteem. Even if you do understand what makes something great there's really no point in you spending time digesting it and analyzing it if you're not getting much out of it. It's YOUR time, after all. And also putting it onto a "best of" list based on its influence is undermining all other great influential albums you also couldn't get into. If you put enough effort into "getting" lucha I'm sure you could at least understand why we all think a certain wrestler is considered great but your mind seems so corroded with an idea of what you think wrestling is I don't really see it as worthwhile. Stick to what you enjoy and just go through as much of it. Just don't go around imposing it as some kind of "truth".

[ohtani's jacket]

It seems pretty subjective. You and the chap from the other board did not defend on the same points or agree on all points. Was that chinlock by Azteca loose and terrible, or as the chap said, is that what it's meant to look like?

 

I will say that I found the exercise interesting.

I don't really see how an argument of whether there was a counter or not can be subjective. Either there was a counter or there wasn't. You can always argue over how good the counter was, but not its existence.

[JerryvonKramer]

I will never rank anything I don't personally get or care for. And, believe me, across music and films there are a ton of views I have that various snobs would find completely sacriligious. Just to toss out two horror films that are in just about every top 20 list going -- Night of the Hunter and Don't Look Now -- both films I pretty much hate. I have watched the latter three times and still hate it. I don't like Nicholas Roeg. I have gotten shit from other film fans for over-valuing economy and discpline and being too quick to mark stuff down for being "ponderous".

Given that I specialise in Shakespeare, think Bob Dylan is indsputable GOAT songwriter and pick Flair and Jumbo as my 1 and 2, it's easy to get the impression of me as some sort of defender of the canon, but honestly I challenge the canon as much as I defend it. I mean look at Dandy vs. Azteca right here -- it's canonical, I don't like it. Plenty of times, I am prepared to stick my neck out and say "this isn't great" about the sacred texts. Doesn't matter the medium.

So I do think the assessment from GOTNW is both unfair and contradictory. I'm very often prepared to be out on a limb on something and be honest enough to say "I don't like this".

Velvet Underground and Nico is an album I rate very highly, I admire it a lot, and I have listened to it a lot. I don't LOVE it. But I'd put it in my top 100 list. We all have things like that which we admire and appreciate as art that we don't LOVE. And I don't at all think it's disingenuous or pretentious to have things like that. Many Bowie fans probably rank Low over Honky Dory, but which one do they LOVE and take to the desert island?

My top 100 wrestling matches, they aren't all "critc's picks", it's a mix of things. Some are deeply personal picks, some are things I admire without loving. I've bolded the matches I LOVE LOVE LOVE and would consider taking to my desert island.

100. Randy Savage vs. Ted DiBiase, 6/25/88 MSG Cage Match, WWF/WWE
99. The Steiner Brothers vs. Tatsumi Fujinami and Takayuki Iizuka, 5/17/92 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW
98. Rick Martel vs. Harley Race, 8/20/86, AWA
97. Larry Zbyszko vs. Masa Saito, 2/10/90
96. Jerry Lawler vs. Terry Funk, 3/23/81 No DQ Match, CWA
95. The Fantastics vs. Eddie Gilbert and Ron Simmons, 12/7/88 Clash of the Champions IV, JCP/NWA/WCW
94. Harley Race vs. Kerry Von Erich, 6/15/82, WCCW
93. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger, 12/26/88 Starrcade, JCP/NWA/WCW
92. Jerry Lawler vs. Dory Funk Jr., 3/30/81, CWA
91. Rock N’ Roll Express vs. Arn and Ole Anderson, 11/27/86 Cage Match, JCP/NWA/WCW
90. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk, 11/15/89 Clash of the Champions IX, JCP/NWA/WCW
89. Negro Casas vs. El Hijo Del Santo, 9/17/97, EMLL
88. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Wahoo McDaniel, 8/28/83, AWA
87. El Faraón, Herodes, and Mocho Cota vs. Lizmark, Ringo Mendoza, and Tony Salazar, 2/24/84, EMLL
86. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Rick Martel, 9/20/84, AWA
85. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu, 10/28/88, AJPW
84. Atlantis and El Hijo Del Santo vs. Fuerza Guerrera and Lobo Rubio, 11/25/83, EMLL
83. Ric Flair vs. Lex Luger, 2/25/90 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW
82. King Tonga, Masked Superstar, & Sheik Adnan Kaissey vs. Crusher Blackwell & Sgt. Slaughter, 4/21/85 Cage Match, AWA
81. Nick Bockwinkel vs. Curt Hennig, 12/25/86, AWA
80. Antonio Inoki vs. Stan Hansen, 5/9/80, NJPW
79. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Rick Martel, 9/29/85, AWA
78. Jim Breaks vs. Vic Faulkner, 7/5/77, WOS
77. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada and Akira Taue, 6/1/93, AJPW
76. Bill Watts and Stagger Lee vs. Midnight Express, 4/22/84, Mid-South
75. Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood vs. Don Kernoodle and Sgt. Slaughter, 3/12/83, JCP/NWA/WCW
74. Jim Breaks vs. Johnny Saint, 5/5/73, WOS
73. Ted DiBiase vs. Magnum TA, 5/27/84, Mid-South
72. Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Giant Baba and Kenta Kobashi, 11/27/92, AJPW
71. Ric Flair, Arn Anderson, and Tully Blanchard vs. Lex Luger, Barry Windham, and Sting, 4/3/88, JCP/NWA/WCW
70. Buddy Rose and Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers, 1/17/87 Cage Match, AWA
69. Greg Valentine vs. Bob Backlund, 11/20/81, WWF/WWE
68. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton, 7/5/86, JCP/NWA/WCW
67. Stan Hansen vs. Carlos Colon, 1/6/87 Bullrope Match, WWC
66. Buddy Rose and Doug Somers vs. Midnight Rockers, 8/30/86, AWA
65. Steve Williams vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 4/16/94, AJPW
64. Wargames, 7/4/87, JCP/NWA/WCW
63. Giant Baba and Rusher Kimura vs. Genichiro Tenryu and Stan Hansen, 11/28/89, AJPW
62. Jim Breaks vs. Johnny Saint, 3/14/73, WOS
61. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Kerry Von Erich, 5/22/84, AJPW
60. Brock Lesnar vs. Undertaker, 10/20/02 Hell in a Cell, No Mercy, WWF/WWE
59. Ricky Steamboat vs. Rick Rude, 2/29/92 Superbrawl II, JCP/NWA/WCW
58. Billy Robinson vs. Nick Bockwinkel, 12/11/80, AJPW
57. Andre the Giant vs. Stan Hansen, 9/23/81, AJPW
56. Ken Patera vs. Bob Backlund, 5/19/80, WWF/WWE
55. Stan Hansen vs. Leon White, 3/13/86, AWA
54. Arn Anderson vs. Barry Windham, 6/6/92, JCP/NWA/WCW
53. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/13/75, AJPW
52. Ricky Steamboat vs. Randy Savage, 3/29/87 WrestleMania III, WWF/WWE
51. Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen, 4/14/83, AJPW
50. Genichiro Tenryu and Stan Hansen vs. Jumbo Tsuruta and Kenta Kobashi, 7/15/89, AJPW
49. Dory Funk Jr. vs. Jack Brisco, 2/8/72, AJPW
48. Lex Luger and Barry Windham vs. Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard, 3/27/88 Clash of the Champions I, JCP/NWA/WCW
47. Mitsuharu Misawa and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Akira Taue and Jumbo Tsuruta, 9/30/90, AJPW
46. Arn Anderson and Larry Zbyszko vs. Dustin Rhodes and Ricky Steamboat, 11/17/91 Clash of the Champions XVII, JCP/NWA/WCW
45. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair, 12/28/85, JCP/NWA/WCW
44. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, and Masa Fuchi, 5/22/92, AJPW
43. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher, 7/15/79, AJPW
42. Ron Garvin vs. Ric Flair, 9/26/87, JCP/NWA/WCW
41. Rick Rude vs. Ricky Steamboat, 6/20/92 Beach Blast, JCP/NWA/WCW
40. Rand Orton vs. Cactus Jack, 4/18/04 Backlash, WWF/WWE
39. Kenta Kobashi and Tsuyoshi Kikuchi vs. Doug Furnas and Dan Krofatt, 5/25/92, AJPW
38. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6/8/90, AJPW
37. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 5/7/89 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW
36. John Cena vs. Umaga, 1/28/07 Royal Rumble, WWF/WWE
35. El Dandy vs. Negro Casas, 7/3/92, EMLL
34. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy, 8/31/83, AJPW
33. Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1, 9/23/83, EMLL
32. Ted DiBiase vs. Jim Duggan, 3/22/85, Mid-South
31. Toshiaki Kawada and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen and Terry Gordy, 12/16/88, AJPW
30. Billy Robinson vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/23/77, AJPW
29. Ric Flair vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 6/8/83, AJPW
28. John Cena vs. JBL, 5/22/05 Judgement Day, WWF/WWE
27. Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk, 7/23/89 Great American Bash, JCP/NWA/WCW
26. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 2/5/87, AJPW
25. Roman Reigns vs. Brock Lesnar, 3/29/15 WrestleMania XXXI, WWF/WWE
24. Billy Robinson vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 3/5/77, AJPW
23. Curt Hennig vs. Nick Bockwinkel, 11/21/86, AWA
22. Giant Baba vs. Billy Robinson, 7/24/76, AJPW
21. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, 3/23/97 WrestleMania XIII, WWF/WWE
20. Jack Brisco vs. Giant Baba, 12/5/74, AJPW
19. Wargames, 2/24/91 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW
18. Stan Hansen and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Jumbo Tsuruta and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 12/6/89. AJPW
17. John Cena vs. Brock Lesnar, 4/29/12 Extreme Rules, WWF/WWE
16. Sgt. Slaughter vs. Pat Patterson, 5/4/81 Alley Fight, WWF/WWE
15. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, 9/1/90, AJPW
14. Sgt. Slaughter vs. Iron Sheik, 6/1/84 Bootcamp Match, WWF/WWE
13. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada, 5/21/94, AJPW
12. Stan Hansen vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 2/28/93, AJPW
11. Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart, 3/20/94 WrestleMania X, WWF/WWE
10. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 2/20/89 Chi-Town Rumble, JCP/NWA/WCW
9. Mitsuharu Misawa and Kenta Kobashi vs. Akira Taue and Toshiaki Kawada, 12/3/93, AJPW
8. Wargames, 5/17/92 Wrestlewar, JCP/NWA/WCW
7. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, and Toshiaki Kawada vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, and Masa Fuchi, 4/20/91, AJPW
6. Jumbo Tsuruta and Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu and Yoshiaki Yatsu, 1/28/86, AJPW
5. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher, 9/19/78, AJPW
4. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada, 6/3/94, AJPW
3. Magnum T.A. vs. Tully Blanchard, 11/28/85 Starrcade I Quit Cage Match, JCP/NWA/WCW
2. Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu, 6/5/89, AJPW
1. Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat, 4/2/89 Clash of the Champions VI, JCP/NWA/WCW

 

I don't think this sort of thing is unique to me AT ALL, we all have to weigh personal love of things vs. some sort of more impartial judgement. It's not disingeuous, it's not pretentious, it's just what criticism is. Wrestling criticism is still in its infancy.

[GOTNW]

 

it's easy to get the impression of me as some sort of defender of the canon, but honestly I challenge the canon as much as I defend it. I mean look at Dandy vs. Azteca right here -- it's canonical, I don't like it. Plenty of times, I am prepared to stick my neck out and say "this isn't great" about the sacred texts. Doesn't matter the medium.

But it's not YOUR canon, and you've admitted to as much, so your statement doesn't really have much merit. You can talk about canon in american wrestling, All Japan or whatever else you "get" and have indulged in significantly.

 

Velvet Underground and Nico is an album I rate very highly, I admire it a lot, and I have listened to it a lot. I don't LOVE it. But I'd put it in my top 100 list. We all have things like that which we admire and appreciate as art that we don't LOVE. And I don't at all think it's disingenuous or pretentious to have things like that.

But where does the admiration stem from? Their influence on a bunch of artists you don't care for? Their reputation? The number of people that like them? Great art should greatly resonate with you. Enjoyment and your opinion of an "objective quality" of something aren't always going to be a 100% match but it's a problem every quality reviewer quickly disposes of. If it's not worthy of your love in some form.......why is it on your list?

[JerryvonKramer]

No, nothing to do with influence or importance, it stems entirely from my own critical judgement based on engagement with the work itself. And, as such, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain this because it should be self-evident from the way I rate stuff and talk about stuff.

 

 

 

But it's not YOUR canon, and you've admitted to as much, so your statement doesn't really have much merit. You can talk about canon in american wrestling, All Japan or whatever else you "get" and have indulged in significantly.

Well there's never just one canon, there are always multiple ones.

 

Wrestling criticism is in its infancy, but we still have multiple ones:

 

- the old-school traditionalist's canon, this is your Larry Matysik top 50 list with Lou Thesz near the top, Flair about 10th, much more of an historical bias with 1950s as golden age. Jerry Lawler doesn't rank. American only.

 

- then there's the Meltzer / Observer canon, one everyone knows. And this has an impact on a more general internet fandom. As such there are likely several sub-canons within this, based on timeframes:

- the one with Flair-Steamboat as GOAT

- the one with AJ mid-90s stuff as GOAT

- the one with Benoit stuff circa early 00s as GOAT

- the one very high on Daniel Bryan stuff later on in 00s

- the one which lauds current NJPW very very highly

- Meltzer himself is a weird amalagm of all of the above, plus some of the Matysik line of thinking too. He tends to think in terms of "moments in time".

 

- There's also WWE official canon, which has Shawn Michaels as GOAT, with Undertaker top 5. Flair is somewhere up there too.

 

- PWO general approach in *some* way acknowledges and challenges all of these canons.

 

None of them are MY canon or YOUR canon. They are just frameworks we work within. And somewhere in all that is the Lucha canon in which Dandy vs. Azteca is a highly lauded match.

 

Although it is true to say that not all canons are created equal. Flair vs. Steamboat within the fandom is a "HYPER-Canonical" text, insomuch there is virtually no corner of it that is untouched by at least an awareness of its existence.

[ohtani's jacket]

Given that I specialise in Shakespeare, think Bob Dylan is indsputable GOAT songwriter and pick Flair and Jumbo as my 1 and 2, it's easy to get the impression of me as some sort of defender of the canon, but honestly I challenge the canon as much as I defend it. I mean look at Dandy vs. Azteca right here -- it's canonical, I don't like it. Plenty of times, I am prepared to stick my neck out and say "this isn't great" about the sacred texts. Doesn't matter the medium.

 

You're not rejecting one match in the canon. You're rejecting an entire style because in your own words you're not willing to change the standards by which you judge wrestling. It's not like you're saying that Godard's Weekend is an inexplicably bad film and that it shouldn't be part of the canon. What you're doing is rejecting the entire French New Wave because it's not like the other genres that take pride of place in your canon. If there's a French New Wave film that you like, you like it, but you don't LOVE it, so it's still okay to reject the genre.

 

The problem with this entire discussion isn't that you buck some trend and declare that Dandy vs. Azteca is a bad match. It's that you can't believe that other people find it objectively great when you find it so appalling and distasteful. No matter what you say that suggests an attitude that canon is canon and people can't be so far removed in their taste. Half the trouble is because you use such emotive language. The other half is a conservative streak. GOTW called it elitist, but I'm not sure that's the case. I just think you're passionate in your beliefs, and Lord knows I listened to Bowie because of you and even listened to all of Dylan's albums because of you, but lucha is a disconnect you've struggled over. The hip hop analogy I had a hard time with since I've listened to so much of the music that shaped hip hop, and I would happily compare it to the music it samples for starters. I also have a hard time thinking about lucha as a "thing" when it's so wildly divergent within its country of origin, but at the end of the time I came into lucha wanting to like it. My buddy, whom I watched tapes with at the time, and I wildly embraced those moments that are quintessentially "lucha" because that was the stuff we wanted to pop for. Others might be turned off by that. I always imagined I'd be turned off by Iron Maiden before I went on a big metal binge. Total immersion in a genre is what Matt was arguing for before. But you've got to want to like it. When I read Rippa and Dean writing about 1989-90 lucha, I wanted to like it. To be perfectly honest, until Loss came along and said (in his enthusiasm) that Dandy vs. Azteca was a 5 star match and a MOTD contender, nobody had much to say about where it fit into the grand scheme of things. We were just happy watching 1990 lucha. Maybe it was because it was different from what we were used to, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

Anyway, I'm getting a bit tired of this idea that we should force lucha on you. I think you've sampled enough that it's not for you in November, 2015.

[JerryvonKramer]

I recognise entirely what you are talking about. On the -- probably lost forever -- album review series I did with Will, I remember talking about this at some length. Especially when the price of a CD was probably an entire day's pay from whatever shitty part-time job You were doing at the age of 16.

 

That might be the only album you buy for a couple of weeks, or even a month. If you were like me, you'd probably spent weeks reading about it in magazines and books.

 

The investment is already there. And so you WANT to like it. And let's say it doesn't click first time, or second, or third. You keep trying. Partly because it's the album you've just spent £16 on, partly because you want to understand why all these books and articles praise this album so much. But mostly because you just want to like it.

 

I went through that process with many different albums. Will is fond of reminding me that I am not high on The Who. But that was a view formed from hours spent basically forcing myself to try to love Who's Next and fucking Quadrophenia that I'd just spent £20 on the deluxe double CD.

 

Now, times have changed to and extent. I am convinced that the Internet has made things more disposable and more easy come, easy go. These days, it's easier to get hold of stuff, which is in some ways a wet dream for guys like us, but it takes away the journey of acquisition and with it the investment of wanting to like stuff.

 

Wrestling is not so different. Remember tape trading? Remember how hard it was to get hold of footage? The guys who do would surely have a similar time of it trying to get into the stuff they'd just shelled for.

 

I try with everything to take the same approach I always had, but no matter what you do, a click of a button is not the same as the process of going to the shop or waiting for weeks for that parcel to come through the post.

 

Nonetheless, most of this has come from a desire to persevere. The same impetus that made me finally get Tom Waits after maybe two years of trying, is the same drive here.

 

The true question though is: what allowances and adjustments do you make to accommodate that drive to like something? With Waits, for example, the voice is a barrier, the weird shanty almost pirate theme that pervades his most highly rated works ... might present a barrier. So does overcoming said "barriers" present a shifting of standards? Honestly, I don't know.

 

We are getting towards the limits of how much I have thought of the critical process, and where I don't have answers. I don't know about the hip-hop analogy, I'm conflicted on it.

 

I find these sorts of theoretical questions about criticism interesting, it's why I do what I do, but these are difficult ones and I can't pretend to have fully developed ideas on them.

 

In closing though, let me say this: with certain things -- Jazz, Lucha, certain films (and it's funny you mention French New Wave, because it's not really my favourite scene) -- I accept and feel deep down that the failing is mine. As in, I see it as a form of my failing to get whatever it is people are seeing. I do out things forcefully sometimes, and can get "passionate" as you say, but it is a mistake to take some of my comments said in the moment absolutely. "I don't understand how anyone can think this is five star" is partly an admission of failure, rather than an assertion that my views are final and true.

 

On the whole, I prefer being someone who helps other people get into things I like, than being the guy who takes a stance against critical consensus. I prefer it because in the latter case, I've always had this sense that "I'm probably in the wrong". This case included.

[BillThompson]

No, nothing to do with influence or importance, it stems entirely from my own critical judgement based on engagement with the work itself. And, as such, I'm not entirely sure why I need to explain this because it should be self-evident from the way I rate stuff and talk about stuff.

 

 

The guy who constantly tells others that they have to explain why they feel the way they do making this statement is really fucking rich, let me tell you.

[JerryvonKramer]

There is no substitute to the critical process Bill. Rage against me all you want. I ask only for workings beyond "just because I like it".

 

Honestly, I think your vitriol against me on here and elsewhere is misplaced.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'll also say this, for every person you think is driven off by the depth and fierceness of some of the debate we have, how many people have found the site through the podcasts that I've put out there? Well? Have a trawl through the newcomers thread. Yes , there's only so many shots I'm willing to take.

[BillThompson]

There is no substitute to the critical process Bill. Rage against me all you want. I ask only for workings beyond "just because I like it".

 

Honestly, I think your vitriol against me on here and elsewhere is misplaced.

 

That's not the case though. Your history on here proves it. People will go to great depth to explain why something or someone did or didn't work for them and you'll still ask them for more explanation and tell them their explanation isn't good enough. Or worse if you don't agree with their take that they're being arbitrary. Yet you turn around and offer surface level critiques and say, "Don't see why I'm being asked to explain myself."

 

My vitriol here and other places is because you act like a baby, treat others like they are worthless, treat their opinions like they have no value next to the almighty value of your opinion, and manage to get away with it.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think that's entirely untrue and a narrative that takes place mainly in your own head.

 

I don't think anyone can say I haven't explained my thinking or that I completely dismiss anyone else out of hand. The most extreme case is probably GOTNW, whose reviews of Flair matches were so far from my own that I said I probably wouldn't take what he had to say seriously. The other most extreme case is you, who said that you think clouds, as in actual clouds in the sky, are art. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but not all opinions are equal. I'd expect people don't take my views on Lucha to hold any great sway either.

 

But treating people like they are worthless is a huge and pretty unfair charge. I have done fifty fucking shows with Johnny Sorrow who is a guy who loves modern WWE and appears to hate analysis. I have put Matt D, a guy who has some very strange takes, over big time and even encouraged him to have a column where he provides his takes on whatever show we are reviewing on WWE.

 

Do not give me this total crap about me treating other people badly or like they are scum. I resent it because it is simply not true. Hell, I've even put you over Bill, so please, give me a break.

[BillThompson]

Think whatever you wish Parv. Your words, the way you talk to & about people and their opinions is all the ample evidence I need of your little tyrant mentality and your tendency to treat others like shit.

[JerryvonKramer]

Well honestly, you've pissed me off. If anything I treat the opinions of others with almost too much respect which is why I'm still banging my head against this brick wall called Lucha.

 

Because there are many people's views here I hold in high esteem to the point where I really want to be on board.

 

I'm sorry, I will not sit here and be told that I treat people like shit, when that is patently not the case. You've crossed a line.