Dylan Waco Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 Just because people like things or dislike things and haven't thought through the reasons ("just because"), does not mean there are no reasons. And naturally, it's easier not to think about them and not to make any effort to explain them than to do so. So wait, if someone likes something, but doesn't know why they like it then they're lazy or something, or just don't want to put the effort in? Alright then lad... No, but it strikes me as odd that someone would be interested in going on a message board to write "i thought that was cool" and then log off. There is an expectation in a setting like this that the level of engagement will expand at least beyond what you might find on Twitter. I don't think it is even bordering on pretentious to make that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 As an aside I really love the Big Book of Basketball. It's a damn fun read. I'm not averse to trying to break down things into tiers more specifically but that would take me a while because there are a fuck ton of guys who I would lump into group four That's where one gets into (i) what's the overall objective, and (ii) what are the general criteria of the Levels/Tiers. Bill's was Hall of Fame caliber talent. So we can take a guy like Michael Cooper or Derek Fisher (to name a pair of Laker Dynasty supporting players) and go, "Is he even at the Level 1 level?" and when the answer is "No", then just move onto someone else. In wrestling, let's say Marty Jannetty. He had a career. In some good matches. But in the end, the closest he'd get to any wrestling HOF is buying a ticket to it. So if the overall objective is HOF level wrestlers, by whatever criteria, then you're chopping off a whole bunch of the guys who don't warrant any thought beyond "no". But if the point is to come up with a Pyramid where Everyone fits onto one level or another, and you really want to figure out where Sid fits into it... then that's something to hash out on the Overall Objective: slot Everyone, or Slot folks above a certain level (strictly HOF, or "near-HOF" as the base level, etc). Beyond that, then it's criteria. We always have this in the GOAT discussion. The first is the most basic one: for the most part when you get in hardcore joints like this, where people are talking about when they say GOAT is "work" either as 100% or as an overwhelming majority of it. How do we know this? Go back to the first page, do a little Ctrl+F, type in Hogan, hit enter. Then got to page 2 and do the same thing. Then to page 3. How many times did you find a match? Naoki Sano shows up more times in the thread than Hulk. That tends to indicate that all the non-work criteria that make Hogan a GOAT candidate count for 0.00%. Which is fine if it's a work thingy. But if you look at Ditch's recent post on Tenryu as a GOAT candidate, those first 3 out of the 4 things that Ditch listed are kinda-sorta Hogan things. Then there's the Great Matches one, which isn't a Hogan thing (even for those of us who find him perfectly acceptable). Then there's probably a half dozen other things we could think up in 30 minutes, at least two of which probably would be pretty major for a GOAT... If it wasn't based 95% to 100% on Work. So those kind of the things to hit first. Then it's taking a swing at what types of things are we looking at in each different level/tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted August 21, 2013 Report Share Posted August 21, 2013 A while back, I got the idea to draw up a March Madness-style GOAT bracket. I wasn't able to come up with a complete one, but here are the names I came up with. US REGION: Wrestlers who worked primarily in the US Arn Anderson Steve Austin Nick Bockwinkel Bryan Danielson Ted DiBiase Ric Flair Bret Hart Curt Hennig Jerry Lawler Rick Martel Shawn Michaels Harley Race Randy Savage Ricky Steamboat Barry Windham JAPAN REGION: Wrestlers who worked primarily in Japan Tatsumi Fujinami Yoshiaki Fujiwara Shinya Hashimoto Akira Hokuto Toshiaki Kawada Kenta Kobashi Aja Kong Jushin Liger Mitsuharu Misawa Nobuhiko Takada Genichiro Tenryu Dick Togo Manami Toyota Jumbo Tsuruta Jaguar Yokota MEXICO REGION: Wrestlers who worked primarily in Mexico Perro Aguayo Atlantis Black Terry Blue Panther El Dandy El Hijo del Santo MS-1 Negro Casas La Parka Pirata Morgan Sangre Chicana El Satanico Villano III WORLD WARRIOR REGION: Wrestlers who for one reason or another didn't neatly fit into one of the other regions Chris Benoit The Destroyer Dynamite Kid Terry Funk Terry Gordy Eddy Guerrero Volk Han Stan Hansen Mil Mascaras Dick Murdoch Rey Mysterio Billy Robinson Vader Steve Williams That's 57 total. It's not the definitive list of great wrestlers, but I think it's a good starting point for trying to come up with wrestlers who belong in one of the four tiers. Feel free to add or subtract as you consider appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just because people like things or dislike things and haven't thought through the reasons ("just because"), does not mean there are no reasons. And naturally, it's easier not to think about them and not to make any effort to explain them than to do so. So wait, if someone likes something, but doesn't know why they like it then they're lazy or something, or just don't want to put the effort in? Alright then lad... No, but it strikes me as odd that someone would be interested in going on a message board to write "i thought that was cool" and then log off. There is an expectation in a setting like this that the level of engagement will expand at least beyond what you might find on Twitter. I don't think it is even bordering on pretentious to make that point. No, but I've seldom written as you've said. What I said, if you'd go back and read it, is I like what I like and I can't put a finger on why I like what I like yet I can go into what I don't like quite easily. And more importantly, you've come in too late. I thought JVK was being pretentious quite long ago, and then it was explained that he really isn't, it's just the way he is, so I stepped away from it as people have their own way of expressing themselves. People are people, as the song went. All it was, was two people communicating in a completely different manner (Welcome to Wales). Good use of "setting like this" though. It's almost as if it's not a forum but some kind of fucking bible when you phrase it like that. Fact of the matter is this. As far as I'm concerned the GOAT are the people who's matches I enjoy the greatest. I like to watch wrestling and smile as I do so. I don't like to think about it as I do. I like to turn my stresses and shite off for a few hours and enjoy some of the wrestling. I just enjoy something, and I enjoy some people more than others, not for any real reason. I just do. And that's all there is to it. I like to read what other people think of things on here, and it's very enlightening, but I'm not so verbose, or so serious about it. I just like to pop a DVD in and watch my favourites. If that's not good enough then I apologise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Fact of the matter is this. As far as I'm concerned the GOAT are the people who's matches I enjoy the greatest. I like to watch wrestling and smile as I do so. I don't like to think about it as I do. I like to turn my stresses and shite off for a few hours and enjoy some of the wrestling. I just enjoy something, and I enjoy some people more than others, not for any real reason. I just do. And that's all there is to it. I like to read what other people think of things on here, and it's very enlightening, but I'm not so verbose, or so serious about it. I just like to pop a DVD in and watch my favourites. This is pretty much exactly how I look at wrestling and various wrestlers, promotions, etc. I do really enjoy reading everyone else's breakdowns of why they like or don't like certain wrestlers and learn a shitload reading all of it, which is why I'm on here 16 hours a day. Whenever I try to break shit down it sucks the fun straight out of wrestling for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 There is no need to play the martyr card here. This forum is about as open a forum as you will find on the net in terms of range of discussion, opinion, et. My point wasn't that this place requires posters to participate above some sort of minimal level, but that the "I like what I like and that's that!" stuff isn't exactly the sort of thing that lends itself to a discussion/message board environment. That's not about elevating PWO to a biblical level, it's merely stating the obvious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm not playing the Martyr, I just don't like feeling that I have to defend myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Fact of the matter is this. As far as I'm concerned the GOAT are the people who's matches I enjoy the greatest. I like to watch wrestling and smile as I do so. I don't like to think about it as I do. I like to turn my stresses and shite off for a few hours and enjoy some of the wrestling. I just enjoy something, and I enjoy some people more than others, not for any real reason. I just do. And that's all there is to it. I like to read what other people think of things on here, and it's very enlightening, but I'm not so verbose, or so serious about it. I just like to pop a DVD in and watch my favourites. This is pretty much exactly how I look at wrestling and various wrestlers, promotions, etc. I do really enjoy reading everyone else's breakdowns of why they like or don't like certain wrestlers and learn a shitload reading all of it, which is why I'm on here 16 hours a day. Whenever I try to break shit down it sucks the fun straight out of wrestling for me. Worth noting that there is also a big gap between the tendency toward super detailed breakdowns that some people engage in and the list fetishism and things of that ilk that often go with it (guilty as charged on the lists stuff at minimum) and saying "I like Ryback because I do." My guess is that most people who frequent forums like this fall somewhere in that massive middle space Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I'm not playing the Martyr, I just don't like feeling that I have to defend myself. Then don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Don't worry Dubs, I won't from here on in. I love wrestling, that's why I joined and really love reading this forum. Wrestling is one of my favourite things in the world, if not the. I love coming on here and reading JDW, Bix and Ohtani's Jacket, and it's like a learning tree to sit under. But if I'm going to be talked down to on here by boys with bigger penises then me, then maybe it's not for me as I can't articulate my opinions. Probably best going back to lurking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 But if I'm going to be talked down to on here by boys with bigger penises then me, then maybe it's not for me as I can't articulate my opinions. Probably best going back to lurking. Honestly I had no desire to continue the sub argument, but I have to point out that this is pretty much textbook "playing the martyr" dogshit right here. You might as well post a pic of yourself on a cross. Enough of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I just want to point out that I was never having a go at Butch or guys like James or Johnny Sorrow who take the approach of "I like what I like that that's all there is to it". It's a perfectly valid position that has been adopted by various people across the ages. It's one position. I wasn't attacking it or those who adopt it. It's not an approach I take myself. I don't believe that subjectivity is magic. I don't believe that people like things in a vacuum and that their reasons for liking things are random or arbitrary: they probably have a criteria even though it might be vague, hidden or not thought through. I believe that people tend to have similar criteria to each other, that they influence each other more than anyone would care to admit, and that as a result of this you get consensus. It's not consensus formed from lots of people's random "subjectivity" with different sets of criteria all coincidentally flowing in the same direction, it's consensus formed from lots of people using a similar criteria. This is another position. Outside of this board, I have an interest in how consensus forms and changes over time. I'm also interested in some other things, like ossification -- when a give set of fans form a hard crust around a certain group of "holy" texts against which all subsequent texts are judged -- think of Rolling Stone and the albums of the 1960s. This even started to happen in wrestling (think Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite or the Holy Trinity of Flair-Steamboat). Anyway, all I wanted to say is that I often feel like guys who adopt the first position feel perfectly okay jumping in and attacking people who gravitate towards the second position ("It's not that complicated Tonto, you like what you like, you're over-thinking it, if the crowd pops they've done something right", etc. etc.) but then don't like it if anything comes back in the other direction. That's not a very fair playing field. We don't have to be on the same page or agree on our approaches. Fine. Let's agree that while you might have a preference for a certain approach, that doesn't make someone else's approach wrong, or worse, or whatever. There's no need to attack guys on the analytical end who want to try to think through their positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 As an aside I really love the Big Book of Basketball. It's a damn fun read. I'm not averse to trying to break down things into tiers more specifically but that would take me a while because there are a fuck ton of guys who I would lump into group four That's where one gets into (i) what's the overall objective, and (ii) what are the general criteria of the Levels/Tiers. Bill's was Hall of Fame caliber talent. So we can take a guy like Michael Cooper or Derek Fisher (to name a pair of Laker Dynasty supporting players) and go, "Is he even at the Level 1 level?" and when the answer is "No", then just move onto someone else. In wrestling, let's say Marty Jannetty. He had a career. In some good matches. But in the end, the closest he'd get to any wrestling HOF is buying a ticket to it. So if the overall objective is HOF level wrestlers, by whatever criteria, then you're chopping off a whole bunch of the guys who don't warrant any thought beyond "no". But if the point is to come up with a Pyramid where Everyone fits onto one level or another, and you really want to figure out where Sid fits into it... then that's something to hash out on the Overall Objective: slot Everyone, or Slot folks above a certain level (strictly HOF, or "near-HOF" as the base level, etc). Beyond that, then it's criteria. We always have this in the GOAT discussion. The first is the most basic one: for the most part when you get in hardcore joints like this, where people are talking about when they say GOAT is "work" either as 100% or as an overwhelming majority of it. How do we know this? Go back to the first page, do a little Ctrl+F, type in Hogan, hit enter. Then got to page 2 and do the same thing. Then to page 3. How many times did you find a match? Naoki Sano shows up more times in the thread than Hulk. That tends to indicate that all the non-work criteria that make Hogan a GOAT candidate count for 0.00%. Which is fine if it's a work thingy. But if you look at Ditch's recent post on Tenryu as a GOAT candidate, those first 3 out of the 4 things that Ditch listed are kinda-sorta Hogan things. Then there's the Great Matches one, which isn't a Hogan thing (even for those of us who find him perfectly acceptable). Then there's probably a half dozen other things we could think up in 30 minutes, at least two of which probably would be pretty major for a GOAT... If it wasn't based 95% to 100% on Work. So those kind of the things to hit first. Then it's taking a swing at what types of things are we looking at in each different level/tier. I like this post a good deal. I do wonder if people don't go in for "total package" lists more because they are a bit boring and would always lead to the same "Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair" list? I dunno. What happened to the trademark "John" sign off though? ----- Later today I'm going to work out my own tiers. I often feel like I still need to see more stuff when taking part in these sorts of threads. I worry about my blind spots (Memphis, 90s All Japan, anything WWE since 2005). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrickHithouse Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I just want to point out that I was never having a go at Butch or guys like James or Johnny Sorrow who take the approach of "I like what I like that that's all there is to it". It's a perfectly valid position that has been adopted by various people across the ages. It's one position. I wasn't attacking it or those who adopt it. I didn't take anything as an attack or anything negative in the least. I admire those who can lay things out clearly and explain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 We all have blind spots. Best you can do is be open minded about watching new things when you get the chance and go with what you know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 What happened to the trademark "John" sign off though? Good question. I appear not to have used it in any of my posts in this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted August 22, 2013 Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 I think you see it as the sign of a Tier 3 guy and not a Tier 2 one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2013 Maybe there are two different people accessing the jdw account. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 I started to sketch this out ... Tier 1 - Hansen, Misawa, Kawada, Tenryu, Flair, Funk, Dandy, Fujiwara, Jumbo Tier 2 - Lawler, Kobashi, Choshu, Fujinami, Hashimoto, Rey, Vader, Liger, Buddy Rose, Han, Casas, Santito, Danielson, Bockwinkel, Morton, Eddy, Bret Hart Tier 3 - Savage, Steamboat, Eaton, Windham, Satanico (probably higher with more footage), Taue, Dundee, Regal, Finlay, Billy Robinson, Tully, Arn, Tamura, Cena, Austin, Steve Grey, Marty Jones, Blue Panther, Baba, Hase, Naoki Sano, Ishikawa, Martel, Pirata Morgan, Dick Togo, Negro Navarro, Dick Murdoch Tier 4 - Tajiri, Maeda, Ron Garvin, Henning, Valentine, Santana, Kikuchi, Otani, Pillman, Yatsu, Owen Hart, Steve Williams, Luger, CM Punk, Jun Akiyama, Mick Foley, Daisuke Ikeda, Gran Hamada, Masa Saito, Masa Fuchi, Butch Reed, Ted Dibiase, Terry Gordy, Andre (higher with more footage), Scorpio, Bill Eadie, MS-1, Minoru Suzuki ... The fact you have Lawler in your Tier 2 makes me not like you anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 A question for Childs: Is tier one made up of guys you would personally consider for number one? Guys who are rock hard top ten picks? Guys who represent the very best of their particular styles? I'm just curious. All of the guys certainly look like they fit in that category, but it interest me as to why they are there and makes me think about what I would do if I were applying a certain standard. For example if the first tier is only guys I would personally consider strongly for "best of all time" I think I'd only have four guys, but that feels off for whatever reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted August 24, 2013 Report Share Posted August 24, 2013 Thought about this and I think this would be my tier 1: Flair, Jumbo, Misawa, Kobashi, Hansen, Lawler, Casas. These are the only guys I would consider for #1 overall personally so that is my cutoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 My tier one is probably more guys who are solid in my top 10 than guys who would all have a shot at my No. 1. For example, Dandy probably wouldn't have a shot at being my No. 1 because we have relatively little footage from his peak years. But at his best, he's the best luchador I've seen, so I felt wrong leaving him out of the top tier. Lawler was probably the toughest guy for me to leave out of my top tier, but I guess I naturally weigh him against Funk and Flair in my mind. And I know I have him below them. It's tough because the very best Lawler is some of my favorite stuff in wrestling history. I just feel the guys in my top tier hit the very highest level a little more often. My opinion might change if we had a more complete record of Memphis arena main events. It definitely helps the Japanese guys that most of their biggest matches were filmed. Anyway, I viewed tier one as top 10, tier two as top 25, tier three as roughly top 50 and tier four as anyone who'd have a shot at top 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hollinger. Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Someone find a way to make a wrestling version of Flickchart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted August 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Flickchart For fuck's sake. Boom there goes my evening. Won't forgive you for introducing me to this. EDIT: Giving up on it to watch football, somehow Grease seems rooted to the top slot. A wrestling version would be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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