Antonio Cesaro

[ohtani's jacket]

Antonio Cesaro vs. John Cena, 2/17/14

 

This has been crazily overrated as I don't see how it's anywhere near MOTY level. As far as TV bouts go, it was all fine and good, but there was nothing about the early heat segment on Cena or any of his comebacks that cried "great match." It doesn't help that WWE commentating is abysmal and that they couldn't flesh out a story if they tried, but I'm not sure Cesaro has his big match WWE psychology down pat yet. His spots look good, especially his suplexes, but he can't really do the whole epic drama thing yet. The finishing stretch was a bit too counter-rific and overall I don't think either Cena or Cesaro were at their best. This was good, but to my mind Bryan/Wyatt has set a bar for this year's WWE and this was well below their match.

 

Sheamus/Christian vs. Real Americans, 2/10/14

 

Workrate sprint. Fun match, I guess, but still a workrate sprint. Probably more rewarding for weekly viewers or people who sit through RAW for the prospect of matches like this.

[Superstar Sleeze]

I am totally in lockstep with you, OJ. I watched the match and did not get all the gushing at all for this match. It was a great free TV match and very exciting, but hardly something I would call a MOTYC. I was actually surprised the stretch run did not get panned on this board since it was such a choreographed feel counter-happy run. I marked out for Cena's clothesline/deadweight FU lift. However, I did not feel there was a whole lot of meat on this match just an exhibition of Cesaro's great strength spots and Cena's usual extended comeback (he has this really nailed down pat). This match reminds me a lot of the Bryan/Cesaro match from last summer, which I thought was wicked overrated. I like Cesaro a lot, but I don't think he has really knocked a singles match out of the park in RAW or PPV yet.

[Dylan Waco]

I like the Sheamus Main Event match as much, or maybe more than the Cena match, but other than that it's the best Cesaro/Claudio match I can remember seeing. I didn't think the stretch run was nearly as video gamish as something like Cena v. Bryan from last year (a match I really liked, but was maybe the most counter happy/momentumless WWE match I've ever seen), and in fact I thought a lot of the work done played off of things that had happened in previous tag matches these guys were in, even if it i is possibly incidental.

 

I do want to watch the match back to back with the Wyatts v. Shield match and Titan v. Virus in a few months though to see if it was a case where the real time reaction inflated the match. At the moment I'd rate it behind the trio, but clearly ahead of Titan v. Virus (which had a second fall comeback from Titan that was vastly worse than anything in either of those matches) in my MOTY depth chart

[Loss]

Antonio Cesaro vs. John Cena, 2/17/14

 

This has been crazily overrated as I don't see how it's anywhere near MOTY level. As far as TV bouts go, it was all fine and good, but there was nothing about the early heat segment on Cena or any of his comebacks that cried "great match." It doesn't help that WWE commentating is abysmal and that they couldn't flesh out a story if they tried, but I'm not sure Cesaro has his big match WWE psychology down pat yet. His spots look good, especially his suplexes, but he can't really do the whole epic drama thing yet. The finishing stretch was a bit too counter-rific and overall I don't think either Cena or Cesaro were at their best. This was good, but to my mind Bryan/Wyatt has set a bar for this year's WWE and this was well below their match.

 

You often ask why people care about certain things. So I'm going to ask in this case why you care about big match WWE psychology and why you think the lack of it detracts from the match. It was a TV match between a main eventer and a midcarder, not a pay-per-view main event. Doesn't the fact that it steps outside of that formula and gives us something that only these two wrestlers are capable of doing make the match more unique and appealing? And how can you not even comment on Cesaro's feats of strength?

[Matt D]

I like the Sheamus Main Event match as much, or maybe more than the Cena match, but other than that it's the best Cesaro/Claudio match I can remember seeing. I didn't think the stretch run was nearly as video gamish as something like Cena v. Bryan from last year (a match I really liked, but was maybe the most counter happy/momentumless WWE match I've ever seen), and in fact I thought a lot of the work done played off of things that had happened in previous tag matches these guys were in, even if it i is possibly incidental.

 

 

That's one thing about Cesaro's stuff. He builds off of previous matches in a way that sort of breaks the MOYTC formula. It means people who have been watching will appreciate things more than people who jump in and out. That's absolutely the case for the Zayn 2/3 falls match.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

Antonio Cesaro vs. John Cena, 2/17/14

 

This has been crazily overrated as I don't see how it's anywhere near MOTY level. As far as TV bouts go, it was all fine and good, but there was nothing about the early heat segment on Cena or any of his comebacks that cried "great match." It doesn't help that WWE commentating is abysmal and that they couldn't flesh out a story if they tried, but I'm not sure Cesaro has his big match WWE psychology down pat yet. His spots look good, especially his suplexes, but he can't really do the whole epic drama thing yet. The finishing stretch was a bit too counter-rific and overall I don't think either Cena or Cesaro were at their best. This was good, but to my mind Bryan/Wyatt has set a bar for this year's WWE and this was well below their match.

 

You often ask why people care about certain things. So I'm going to ask in this case why you care about big match WWE psychology and why you think the lack of it detracts from the match. It was a TV match between a main eventer and a midcarder, not a pay-per-view main event. Doesn't the fact that it steps outside of that formula and gives us something that only these two wrestlers are capable of doing make the match more unique and appealing? And how can you not even comment on Cesaro's feats of strength?

 

 

I think a MOTYC needs to have a bigger arc with a layout that has a wider scope in terms of the drama it achieves, otherwise it's just a good to very good TV match. WWE has a specific type of big match psychology as seen in matches like the Cena vs. Punk MITB match. Cesaro vs. Cena didn't come anywhere close to achieving that sort of drama. Cesaro is an impressive athlete and I thought the suplexes were impressive feats of strength, but I don't think this was a big time Cena match and I don't see how only these two wrestlers are capable of having this particular match. I'm not sure I entirely agree about the bout being limited because it was a television bout. They choose to work the scale they did. The match was limited because Cesaro is limited in certain areas like acting and selling and so forth. Again, he's a very good wrestler, but they were clearly going for main event formula with the counters at the end and I don't think he has that down pat yet. I assume most people are saying this is the best match they've seen so far this year, but to me MOTYC is a set standard and doesn't evolve from one match to the next.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

I like the Sheamus Main Event match as much, or maybe more than the Cena match, but other than that it's the best Cesaro/Claudio match I can remember seeing. I didn't think the stretch run was nearly as video gamish as something like Cena v. Bryan from last year (a match I really liked, but was maybe the most counter happy/momentumless WWE match I've ever seen), and in fact I thought a lot of the work done played off of things that had happened in previous tag matches these guys were in, even if it i is possibly incidental.

 

 

That's one thing about Cesaro's stuff. He builds off of previous matches in a way that sort of breaks the MOYTC formula. It means people who have been watching will appreciate things more than people who jump in and out. That's absolutely the case for the Zayn 2/3 falls match.

 

 

That may be the case, but the Zayn match had such awful spots I have no desire to see them wrestle again.

[Dylan Waco]

I'd be curious to hear what makes Zayn's offense/spots terrible by comparison to the offense/spots of Titan in the Virus match. I actually like Titan for the kind of worker he is, and historically have been nowhere near as high on Generico/Zayn as many people, but for the life of me I can't fathom how someone could view Titan's work as "fine" and Zayn's work as embarrassing/awful in the two matches in question.

[ohtani's jacket]

Titan did some cringe worthy stuff in that match like the cartwheel shit, but his big dives were pretty. Zayn's spots are absurd like that running diving tornado DDT through the turnbuckle post thing he did. Wrestlers do a lot of creative stuff these days, but adding extra rotations to moves or diving through parts of the ring that don't need to be dived through bug me.

[Dylan Waco]

I'll stop taking this thread off topic, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Titan v. Averno from 12/1/13. I can't remember if you watched or commented on that match at the time.

[Loss]

I think a MOTYC needs to have a bigger arc with a layout that has a wider scope in terms of the drama it achieves, otherwise it's just a good to very good TV match. WWE has a specific type of big match psychology as seen in matches like the Cena vs. Punk MITB match. Cesaro vs. Cena didn't come anywhere close to achieving that sort of drama. Cesaro is an impressive athlete and I thought the suplexes were impressive feats of strength, but I don't think this was a big time Cena match and I don't see how only these two wrestlers are capable of having this particular match. I'm not sure I entirely agree about the bout being limited because it was a television bout. They choose to work the scale they did. The match was limited because Cesaro is limited in certain areas like acting and selling and so forth. Again, he's a very good wrestler, but they were clearly going for main event formula with the counters at the end and I don't think he has that down pat yet. I assume most people are saying this is the best match they've seen so far this year, but to me MOTYC is a set standard and doesn't evolve from one match to the next.

 

I can understand the idea that a MOTYC should have this, but by definition, a MOTYC is merely a candidate for best match of the year so far. The standard can't help but change all the time because output is not equal in all years. If a three-star match is the best match that has happened so far in a year, that match is a MOTYC because it's a candidate for the best match of the year. I think what you're describing is what you think is needed to produce a great WWE match and I would disagree with you there, and I feel like Cena and Cesaro made that case. It wasn't worked like a pay-per-view main event and didn't have that drama, but it did have the dynamic of a main event wrestler facing a talented midcarder and giving him a decent amount of offense before securing the win in the end. You can say the same about all sorts of Jumbo matches that people praise from the early 90s and don't really consider MOTYCs.

 

My point wasn't that the bout was "limited", but rather that they weren't reaching for the stars and that there was no reason for them to reach for the stars. I think criticism that they didn't go big is misplaced, since a match can be great without attempting to go big. I'm not a fan of it, but look at Hashimoto vs Fujiwara from 6/1/94, which I criticized for similar reasons that you are criticizing Cena/Cesaro. I don't recall the big dramatic arc in that match. In fact, that lack of "bloated" feeling was why it was praised.

 

I don't think it was the best match I've seen so far this year, but I do think it was the kind of match I wish we saw more of in WWE, with the established guys facing talented midcarders in long TV matches that aren't in a position to headline a PPV, but can deliver in the ring. I'm not sure how that's different than the praise the Dangerous Alliance era of WCW TV got, and I think this match is analogous to Rick Rude vs Dustin Rhodes from Worldwide on 5/30/92, which I know you liked. I wouldn't criticize that match for not being worked like a pay-per-view main event, and that it wasn't worked like a pay-per-view main event doesn't detract from it for me. I realize no one calls Rude/Dustin a MOTYC, but that's because there had been more great matches globally from January to the end of May 1992 than there had been from January through the middle of February 2014.

 

I do think that Cesaro is still honing his persona and that his matches will get even better when he fleshes that out.

[bradhindsight]

Titan did some cringe worthy stuff in that match like the cartwheel shit, but his big dives were pretty. Zayn's spots are absurd like that running diving tornado DDT through the turnbuckle post thing he did. Wrestlers do a lot of creative stuff these days, but adding extra rotations to moves or diving through parts of the ring that don't need to be dived through bug me.

 

I thought the logic for the dive through the ropes into the DDT was super sound. Cesaro was shielding himself with the post waiting to catch Zayn charging at him. Sami caught him off-guard with the dive through, resulting in him being able to pull off the move. I thought that fit perfectly.

 

I'm not a cartwheel guy either FWIW.

[peachchaos]

The dive through the ropes into the DDT is a Zayn signature spot. He does it in nearly every match.

[Childs]

I've always enjoyed that spot, even though it's a little french pastry. Strikes me as neat looking without being too ridiculous. He's attacking from an angle that opponents aren't used to defending.

[ohtani's jacket]

I can understand the idea that a MOTYC should have this, but by definition, a MOTYC is merely a candidate for best match of the year so far. The standard can't help but change all the time because output is not equal in all years. If a three-star match is the best match that has happened so far in a year, that match is a MOTYC because it's a candidate for the best match of the year. I think what you're describing is what you think is needed to produce a great WWE match and I would disagree with you there, and I feel like Cena and Cesaro made that case. It wasn't worked like a pay-per-view main event and didn't have that drama, but it did have the dynamic of a main event wrestler facing a talented midcarder and giving him a decent amount of offense before securing the win in the end. You can say the same about all sorts of Jumbo matches that people praise from the early 90s and don't really consider MOTYCs.

 

If the best match is only three stars, then I would say there hasn't been a MOTYC so far. I guess I prescribe to the old-school mentality that MOTYC means 4 1/2 stars or better. I couldn't see a three star match contending for MOTY no matter how novel it may be, though I'm sure I could convince myself otherwise if I really liked the match.

 

I didn't have a problem with the dynamic of the match, it just didn't meet my expectations based on the praise it was receiving, because when I hear MOTY being thrown around I immediately think it's going to be better than a whole bunch of matches. The question in my mind is whether it was a great TV match and I'm not sure about that. Hashimoto vs. Fujiwara was pared back to an almost shoot like quality and a different kind of match. Cena vs. Cesaro might be better than Rude vs. Rhodes, but it was given a bigger platform. Cena/Cesaro was halfway between a PPV match and a regular TV bout, kind of an odd place made possible by the three hour RAW. Perhaps a direct comparison is that Punk/Cena match from RAW last year.

 

Then again, I'm slow to the party and people seemed to have moved on and are calling Shield/Wyatts their MOTY, so perhaps my criticisms are pointless now.

[Wahoos Leg]

This is a bit off topic, but I was disappointed that Cesaro didn't giant swing someone into one of the Chamber pods Sunday night.

 

Realizing in full effect that probably says something terrible about me

[Stiva]

This is a bit off topic, but I was disappointed that Cesaro didn't giant swing someone into one of the Chamber pods Sunday night.

 

Realizing in full effect that probably says something terrible about me

 

That would have been a spot for Rey. One thing I do love about Cesaro atm is that his first attempt at the Giant Swing always gets cut off and then he hits it the second time. Such a simple trick but it works every time.

[Superstar Sleeze]

A calendar year is just as arbitrary a measure of time as any other would be. By the definition of Match of the Year, if a three star match is the best match of the year it is match of the year. I hope we never live in that year, but it is just what is. If a three star match was that novel would you not bump it up?

My issue with the match is I just don't think they delivered a match that would constitute a MOTYC status no matter if you wanted a WWE Main Event match, a veteran vs. midcarder, a lucha brawl or a shoot-style mat exhibition. I just did not think the match was worthy of that distinction. It was a very good TV match, but there was nothing about Cesaro's extended heat segment that really screamed transcendent. It was more of an exhibition of his killer spots. It reminded me a lot of Rey vs Dragon from WWIII '97, but with a hotter stretch run. Cesaro is not very heelish, which bothers me to an extent. He wrestles in a really Japanese style. It is not really face or heel, he is just wrestling. As a fan of puroresu, I have no problem enjoying this style it just does not really mesh in WWE style. I think an argument can be made he is turning face sooner rather than later so there is no point in heel it up, but I think he needs some more interaction with crowd. Sometimes, I feel like he is wrestling in a vacuum But what the fuck do I know? He is clearly over and the Giant Swing is over (though I don't like how anytime a babyface cuts it off it gets the face boo'd). As far as Cena's extended comeback, there was nothing super awesome about it. I thought the one against Punk last February was incredible and that Punk RAW match was definitely a MOTYC. The finish was really sweet and I did mark out for the clothesline roll through deadlift FU, but outside of the finish I did not think it was that remarkable. I am going to watch it again, but on first watch I think it was a ***1/2-ish match. Hell, I thought Bryan/Christian from the same show was just as good if not better than Cena/Cesaro. I am shocked that match is getting no love.

I know OJ, I feel the same way since I did not watch Elimination Chamber and had just watched Cesaro/Cena two days ago. Im always behind the times.

[jdw]

Any chance of changing the header to reflect his earlier name that he used for year? Suspect that folks will eventually get around to talking about his whole career, and it would be good to have it all in one thread.

 

Anway...

 

I liked Claudio a lot when seeing him live in PWG and a couple of times in ROH. One of the ROH matches was where they split KOW and the Briscos into a pair of singles matches. Claudio's was surprisingly a storyline based match... in the sense of working a leg injury (Claudio working over the Brisco brother's knee), avoiding a more obvious Big Man vs Somewhat Smaller Face storyline. We all thought it was a smartly worked, solid match... and basically Claudio doing the solid work of anchoring the match.

 

I quite liked his WrestleReunion match against Generico, which was in a tough slot: last match on a long unending show, again working more of an old school story match, working up and down with Generico's comebacks rather than just working a spot-fu match. I always would have loved to see that same match at the home base in Reseda because the crowd would have eaten it up.

 

There were a number of other matches, but I always came away thinking that by 2010/11 that for all of Claudio's "Indy Big Guy" look that he really was a solid, well grounded, smart worker rather than some big doufus... or a common indy spot junky. We pretty constantly liked his work live, and that was with two sets of fans: my friends on the East Coast at ROH shows, and my friends on the West Coast at PWG.

[Superstar Sleeze]

^{Can I change the title or does Loss/Will have to do it?}

[goodhelmet]

What do you want to call it?

[Superstar Sleeze]

Antonio Cesaro/Claudio Castagnoli (A Very European Real American)

[ohtani's jacket]

I'll stop taking this thread off topic, but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Titan v. Averno from 12/1/13. I can't remember if you watched or commented on that match at the time.

[ohtani's jacket]

Haven't seen this. My lucha viewing is pretty selective these days.

[Ryan Faulconer]

 

I can understand the idea that a MOTYC should have this, but by definition, a MOTYC is merely a candidate for best match of the year so far. The standard can't help but change all the time because output is not equal in all years. If a three-star match is the best match that has happened so far in a year, that match is a MOTYC because it's a candidate for the best match of the year. I think what you're describing is what you think is needed to produce a great WWE match and I would disagree with you there, and I feel like Cena and Cesaro made that case. It wasn't worked like a pay-per-view main event and didn't have that drama, but it did have the dynamic of a main event wrestler facing a talented midcarder and giving him a decent amount of offense before securing the win in the end. You can say the same about all sorts of Jumbo matches that people praise from the early 90s and don't really consider MOTYCs.

 

If the best match is only three stars, then I would say there hasn't been a MOTYC so far. I guess I prescribe to the old-school mentality that MOTYC means 4 1/2 stars or better. I couldn't see a three star match contending for MOTY no matter how novel it may be, though I'm sure I could convince myself otherwise if I really liked the match.

What happens when there is a year like 2000 (or whenever) where there aren't any ****1/2 matches? Does that mean that there aren't any MOTYCs?

 

There is a point where it is hard for matches to live up to their hype. There was a time when every ROH show supposedly had the MOTY and when we get around to watching things just don't add up. There is a case for a lot of live wrestling experiences being overrated. RAW gets a lot more praise than Smackdown even though the matches are close to being equal week in and week out.

 

I'd say that Cesaro/Cena was the best TV match I've seen from WWE this year.