Big Pete Posted February 17, 2020 Report Share Posted February 17, 2020 I loved how they had Hogan on there going 'WWE? That will never work, brother' like Vince was on the cutting edge of innovation. It wasn't like they needed to twist it around to suit the story either, the name change was just another in the long line of losses that led to this new era. I also enjoyed the WWE's version of the Invasion era. Forget about turning Austin heel, the real reason for the decline is that Shawn Stasiak and Buff Bagwell weren't believable superstars. Nevermind the fact they could have signed all the WCW stars if they wanted to, or they completely squandered the few stars they did have. Guys like Diamond Dallas Page and Booker T didn't stand a chance and there was no reason why they had to rush it. The documentary also went soft on Austin. I'm not surprised they didn't touch the Debra incident since it doesn't fit the vibe of the documentary, but the way they positioned the documentary, it was like they went to great lengths to justify Austin's position. I guess Austin has apologised for it that many times they're happy to accept some of the blame, but in a documentary that treated their name change as a milestone instead of what it was, was fascinating. So far the star of this documentary for me is Gerwitz. It's nice to see him back in the WWE family and I think he's doing a really good job of telling the story. If you haven't listened to it, I'd highly recommend his episode of the Edge & Christian podcast. His stories about the type of writing kicks Vince would have them go on were hysterical, especially with how it all panned out in one instance with Flair/Batista. But yeah I was genuinely curious to see how the WWE would treat this period. I see it as a really bittersweet moment for the company where they made stars out of John Cena, Randy Orton and Batista but it was really trying time for the company all the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 I enjoyed the second episode on Cena. Nothing jumped out as wildly inaccurate, although I got the impression his make or break moments were heightened for dramatic purposes (he got a lot of chances to succeed on Smackdown in 2002-04). Does anyone have a list of titles on future episodes? I'm curious if there's a Lesnar one in the pipeline, although I can't imagine Brock sitting down to spew revisionist history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Hats 4.0 Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 (iii) Evolution, (iv) Lesnar and (v) the brand split Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 I've watched both episodes of Ruthless Aggression. It seems...fine. But yeah, definitely some weird revisionist history bullshit going on, as others have already pointed out. Episode 1: Portraying the WWE name change as a brilliant creative decision instead of what it actually was...yeah, no. Episode 2: Was Cena really hated by everyone in the locker room and no one wanted to work with him? I've never heard that. I also really doubt he was every truly on a cut list. Vince/Stephanie can't be that stupid? Surely they saw that he brought more to the table than, say, Mark Jindrak. Brian Gerwertz looks looks like he's ready to cry at any moment. I realize he was an important part of the puzzle, but he's not exactly charismatic or camera-ready. Still, it's nice to see someone they haven't used a million times before. Bruce Pritchard always seems like he's full of BS, even when he's being honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 I don't know about the hate that Cena got. Maybe some jealously and yes I do remember a large number of wrestlers thinking the spinner belt was stupid as hell. But I can totally believe the idea of Cena on the cut list around December 2002. He made his debut in late June and the Halloween party stuff that brought out the Word Life Cena. He had a great debut and then really didn't do anything except for an average PPV match against Jericho I believe. Other than that he was pretty much a Velocity or house show guy with a really bland look. I also buy the idea that they "discovered" Cena while looking to see what the progress what of Rico Constantino. In hindsight it is hard to believe but in 2001 there was very high expectations for Rico as a heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 IIRC the feeling was Cena was on the fast track in OVW as the Prototype, and it probably ruffled some feathers. He absolutely was going to be on the "cut because creative has nothing for you" train until Steph famously heard him rapping and decided they could do a gimmick about it. It's funny how they always frame his debut confrontation with Angle as a birth-of-a-new-star moment when it was a one and done type deal and they very clearly didn't have anything further planned beyond that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 It's just difficult to accept that the WWE would give up on Cena entirely when it's clear from his OVW tapes that the guy had a ton of personality and they had barely scratched the surface with him. I could see him being relegated to OVW, but fired altogether? I just think it makes for a better story in hindsight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 There were a lot of people in OVW who showed tons of charisma and ended up getting cut. It seems inconceivable in hindsight that John Goddamn Cena almost got cut, but it definitely was reported as such at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 - I also buy that Cena was a potential cut at some point. At the time, the roster was massive and they had lots and lots of guys with impressive physiques and charisma*. Even the rapper gimmick is an idea that I could see making lots of eyes roll backstage with producers/agents thinking, "Vince finds this funny now and we're selling some merch, but this won't last and Vince will get bored with it." - I didn't think there was too much revisionist history with the Austin story. Austin has apologized on his podcast for his role, but he's also been consistent with his belief that putting Austin/Lesnar on free TV with no build in a KOTR Qualifying Match was a dumb move...and I agree with him. Austin said it best in the documentary too, something along the lines, "I don't like tooting my own horn but I'm kind of rare." Even at that time, aside from maybe The Rock and Hogan (who was on a big nostalgia run, iirc), Austin was still THE biggest star in the company and that warrants favorable booking. Even in the doc, Vince's side of the argument was that they wanted to get Lesnar over strong (which they could do and did without Austin), wanted a shocker moment (when you start there as your main intention, its not a good thing, see Russo-era WCW), and felt like, "By the time we have it at a WrestleMania, everybody will forget that it happened." If that last line isn't a great summary of why people don't give a shit about WWE's hamster wheel, repetitive booking in 2020 and why attendance is down and subscriptions aren't going up, I don't know what is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted February 26, 2020 Report Share Posted February 26, 2020 I just can't remember anybody of Cena's type being fired outright. Even guys like Sean O'Haire, Mark Jindrak, Nathan Jones, Bull Buchanan etc. had a couple of stints in OVW before they were let go and usually their behaviour played a large role. From all reports, Cena was a model student who worked incredibly hard to overcome his deficiencies. With his natural charisma, I just can't see the WWE actually going through with it. I don't deny the reports mind you, I just think it was speculation and the company was never really going to go through with it. If things got really bad and they had to re-think the brand split, maybe, but there were a slew of washed up talents and addicts that had to go before him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted February 27, 2020 Report Share Posted February 27, 2020 Jindrak was the unlikely star of the Evolution episode. I was always curious to hear what the story was about the promotional shoots and the only story we heard is that HHH put the kabosh on the plans. Now we know why and as unbelievably silly as their antics sounded, they actually have video proof of these two doing their barnyard toy act. To Mark's credit, he didn't take it personally on Twitter and it was cool to finally have some closure on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted February 29, 2020 Report Share Posted February 29, 2020 I really liked the Evolution episode. As "obvious" as Randy Orton and Batista seem in retrospect, it's not so easy when you're in the thick of things and trying to make that decision. For a bit of fun, I wracked my brain trying to come up with who would be in a rebooted version of Evolution should such a thing ever occur, and it was hard. I ultimately came up with two possible versions: Seth Rollins (HHH) - I know, I know, but he really would be the best fit for the H role Triple H (Flair) Keith Lee (Batista) Angel Garza (Randy Orton) Or: Seth Rollins (HHH) Triple H (Flair) EC3 (Batista) Bobby Roode (Randy Orton) This is an alternate universe, obviously, where those guys get pushed and Bobby Roode isn't quite so long in the tooth age-wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 The Brock Lesnar episode of Ruthless Aggression was the least interesting and informative one so far. While I wasn't expecting new interviews with Lesnar, it really would've helped to have them. Everything else was basically what we already know. Heyman made a good point that Lesnar's original stint was only two years, and look at all he did in such a short amount of time. I was mildly surprised that Lesnar wasn't around longer. I thought it was longer, but it was only 24 months. Brian Gewirtz parroted the usual "how dare you" company line about Lesnar walking away after everything they'd done for him and admitted a lot of people resented him for it. Gewirtz later walked that back a bit by saying it was better for Lesnar to go if he wasn't happy, because that isn't good for anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 I 100% believe if Brock hadn't have gone to UFC and won the title, he would have been on Vince's shit list to this day. He's come closest of anyone in terms of getting a court to call bullshit on WWE's ridiculous contract terms (they tried to keep him from wrestling anywhere in the world when he left WWE to play football). Had he not gone to UFC and activated Vince's "real sports cred" boner, the narrative would probably be he was a spoiled baby who couldn't hack it in WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blehschmidt Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 51 minutes ago, sek69 said: I 100% believe if Brock hadn't have gone to UFC and won the title, he would have been on Vince's shit list to this day. He's come closest of anyone in terms of getting a court to call bullshit on WWE's ridiculous contract terms (they tried to keep him from wrestling anywhere in the world when he left WWE to play football). Had he not gone to UFC and activated Vince's "real sports cred" boner, the narrative would probably be he was a spoiled baby who couldn't hack it in WWE. 100% This. If Brock had failed his Vikings try out, then gotten his ass handed to him in the UFC, he would either have disappeared into the wilderness to hunt forever more, or he would have ended up in TNA or Japan, because Vince would have never looked at him again. I fully believe that the current state of WWE is all because Vince McMahon got his feelings hurt when his "Next Big Thing" in Brock Lesnar decided he didn't want to do it anymore and took his ball and went home. That is when the focus of the company changed from making stars to making the company the star and we've had 18 years of them knee capping every single person who showed the potential to be the next big thing, or even remotely started to get themselves over without the companies permission. (Sure there was John Cena, but with his charisma and attitude he was destined to reach the levels he did, but if the company was behind him like they'd been behind a Hogan or Austin, think about where he could have gone.) Then when Brock did come back, Holy Shit, he's getting perks the likes of which have never been seen before, and likely never will again. They can spin whatever version of history they want on their show, but the fact is that Vince is Brock's bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Are there any quick guides or links to TV or other network content that builds PPVs before the Raw era? I.e. SNMEs, Prime Times, etc.? Curious what's out there that sets up shows like the early Manias, Summerslams and Survivor Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 48 minutes ago, Blehschmidt said: I fully believe that the current state of WWE is all because Vince McMahon got his feelings hurt when his "Next Big Thing" in Brock Lesnar decided he didn't want to do it anymore and took his ball and went home. That is when the focus of the company changed from making stars to making the company the star and we've had 18 years of them knee capping every single person who showed the potential to be the next big thing, or even remotely started to get themselves over without the companies permission. (Sure there was John Cena, but with his charisma and attitude he was destined to reach the levels he did, but if the company was behind him like they'd been behind a Hogan or Austin, think about where he could have gone.) Honestly, the bigger factor was probably Stacy Keibler being on Dancing With the Stars. She was getting the full "look we got one of our folks on a show with mainstream stars!" megapush until the celebrities there smartened her up to what it's like being a star outside of WWE, with actual benefits and standards and whatnot. As soon as that happened it became clear she wasn't going to go back to wrestling and all promotion came to a screeching halt. Ever since then, WWE has taken great pains to make sure they personally curate all exposure of their talent to the mainstream so they don't get to full of themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 1 hour ago, WingedEagle said: Are there any quick guides or links to TV or other network content that builds PPVs before the Raw era? I.e. SNMEs, Prime Times, etc.? Curious what's out there that sets up shows like the early Manias, Summerslams and Survivor Series. The SNMEs are usually the best bet in terms of a time investment. Prime Time has the build but also a lot of filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted March 7, 2020 Report Share Posted March 7, 2020 The only revisionist history of Brock's Ruthless Aggression that cracked me was the idea that in 2002 Summerslam Brock was getting cheers because he was becoming extremely popular with the fans. while he was getting popular, the main reason why the crowd booed the hell out of Rock is because they knew he was leaving for I think Scorpion King. so the finish was a given. Rock was really one of the original WWE "You sold out" guy that the fans turned on The Story of FCW documentary that is supposed to "premiere" tonight is up if live to go to the live schedule part. So damn good. Tells all of the good and bad of the company. The part about Dusty's promo classes are must see in my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 10, 2020 Report Share Posted March 10, 2020 Don't sleep on the FCW documentary. It's great stuff. Was really interesting to see some of the folks who didn't make it. A strong mic worker or two in that bunch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 How is it that Wrestlemania 2 isn't always at the top of the conversation among all time bad shows? What a slog to get through even as background material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 First half of Mania 2 is dreadful, but from Bulldogs vs Dream Team on it's a pretty good show Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrzfn Posted March 11, 2020 Report Share Posted March 11, 2020 Even prior to that I actually enjoy Savage vs. Steele pretty well. Some big stinkers but some good stuff too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpetCrawler Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 11 hours ago, Mrzfn said: Even prior to that I actually enjoy Savage vs. Steele pretty well. Some big stinkers but some good stuff too. Savage and Steele is tons of fun, as is the Funks tag and the Bulldogs tag. Bar none XI is my pick for the dirt worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted March 12, 2020 Report Share Posted March 12, 2020 23 hours ago, Mrzfn said: Even prior to that I actually enjoy Savage vs. Steele pretty well. Some big stinkers but some good stuff too. I actually thought Jake vs. George Wells was the best of the squash matches. Bulldogs/Dream Team was okay but it didn't bowl me over at all. Hogan/Bundy was a perfectly acceptable version of that kind of match, but man, what a horrendous show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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