Wrestling before or after 1996?

[TheU_2001]

 

 

Before, easily. I'd miss out on a great 1997, but wrestling fell of a cliff after that in a lot of ways.

The same.

 

But really I'd choose before 2001, way too much great stuff still in 96/97 & 98-99 (in Japan).

I agree for sure on both of these. Although the biggest shows I've ever been to live (Mania 17, Mania 19, and No Mercy 2008), were all 2001 and beyond, I still prefer 80s and early 90s stuff the most. Plus all the really great stuff from Japan, was from the 80s-90s.

[TheU_2001]

Without a doubt def going pre 96, as much as I enjoy the attitude era and past for me it wasent real wrestling, I loved the Hogan era and all the cool characters they had like Jake, Demo, LOD, Rude, Ted, Andre, Superfly, Razor, Rockers and on the other side you had The Horsemen running things so yeah ill pick that era any day.

100% agree. For me The Hogan era WWE was the best, and WCW/NWA was at its best from the 80s-early 90s as well. When I'm watching stuff on the network, this is the stuff I'll always go to when I want to watch an old show. I just totally love that era.

[Gutenberger]

I guess I'd take post 1996. I haven't seen that much Pre, so that might change, but just the possibility of watching everything that's still to come gives the advantage.

[ghost]

Definitely before. If I had to list my 10 favourite matches, they would all date before 1996. NWA/JCP, all the other great territories, 80s Japan and Mexico, World of Sport etc. epitomize wrestling to me.

 

Quality drops off a cliff for me after '97. The Monday Night Wars era is fun but I've seen it all by now and don't care to watch that stuff again; having re-watched a lot of mainstream US wrestling that came after (the SmackDown Six stuff, for instance), I found it didn't hold up for me; don't care for NOAH (too excessive); don't really care for modern NJPW (feels too homogenized); and I'm out of the loop when it comes to lucha. I would miss out some great years for RoH, Daniel Bryan and the indy guys around now I like such as Thatcher, Busick, ZSJ et al, Battlarts, and there's still some good joshi out there which I try to keep up with (Stardom, Ice Ribbon mostly)... but all in all I feel comfortable with going pre-'96.

 

Now if you made it '90-92 then it would be way more of a hard decision: I would really miss the early '90 years of All Japan, NJPW juniors, lots of joshi, AAA's early years and some fantastic lucha in general - especially 1992, a lot of really good WCW in that time frame as well, FMW, and SMW (which is one of my favourite episodic wrestling shows).

 

All in all, I'd say my favourite years for wrestling are around '84-96. It's not even so much that I think the matches were better; it's the total package: the crowds and atmosphere in general. Hell, I even love watching some random WWF card from '81 with half a dozen jobber vs jobber matches because the crowd gets so into it it's impossible to not get drawn into it yourself (and the WWF/WWE is not one of my favoured promotions). The modern presentation style; things like the commentary and over-production in current WWE, as well as the crowds doing annoying chants, and general smarkiness in a lot of the indies etc. I find a real turn off.

[Loss]

I don't think wrestling looks like the times as much post-1996, mainly because a WWE show from 2008 and 2016 are virtually identical on an aesthetic level. Only the names have changed. Now there are exceptions -- from 1997-2000, the WWF was a part of the pop culture and fit in well, and guys like Samoa Joe who are my age having bleached blond hair in the early 2000s feels very early 2000s culturally. But if I pop in a match from just about anywhere in 2008, I don't see hairstyles or music or hear topical references that take me back there very much. You could show me an empty WWF ring from 1995, and I would immediately know it was a 1995 show.

 

That type of thing matters to me almost as much as the quality itself.

[Loss]

There are actually a lot of presentation things that bug me, I guess because a stale look and feel immediately tells me "This company is out of touch with its audience."

[Mad Dog]

I would go with post-1996. While I love the stuff in the 1980s there was just so much great stuff from the 00s and 10s that are awesome. Just off the top of my head I'm thinking of NWA Wildside, NWA Anarchy, IWA MS, RoH, DDT, CMLL during Mistico's run, Mutoh's 2001 run, NXT, Smackdown for like the entire decade, that 2 or 3 year run where WWE ECW was legit great stuff, 1997 WCW and WWE, Chikara, Dragon Gate and the list just goes on.

[Loss]

This is a good place to pose this question. Did fans start caring more about match quality organically as part of a changing landscape? Or did everything outside the in-ring just go so far to shit that fans who wanted to keep watching had to adjust their expectations to avoid a constant stream of disappointment?

[Mad Dog]

I think the WWE became a good match factory sometime around late 1999 to the current day. So fans have a base expectation for match quality these days that wasn't necessarily there in the old days. You kind of get spoiled when a "bad" PPV probably has 2 good matches on it and a bunch of average ones and you can see a couple of good matches weekly for free on TV.

[Loss]

What I mean is that I think there was a time when people cared more about booking, promos and characters than the wrestling. WCW had much better wrestling for almost its entire existence, but that wasn't enough to hold on to their support because people hated the booking so much. I don't think I that would be the case now.

[Mad Dog]

Lack of exposure to good booking could be a reason. Someone who is 18-20 years old today would be too young to really remember the last time the WWE was a well booked promotion.

[Loss]

Not just WWE. Has any wrestling company had GREAT booking on any type of consistent level in the last decade and a half? I'm sure they exist but not in abundance. I could probably count the all-time classic promos in that timeframe on one hand with fingers left too. There have been well-booked feuds in isolation but I mean up and down the card, building things long term while also getting people enthusiastic about the current lineup. Maybe NXT to an extent has done that but even then, I don't see the weekly TV as must-see.

[Mad Dog]

Ring of Honor for about 5-6 years. NWA Wildside and NWA Anarchy for really long periods of time. There was about a 3 year period where I felt NWA Anarchy was must-see TV every week. Chikara isn't everyone's cup of tea here but they weave plotlines for years and pay them off well and only fell off a cliff when they "closed" the promotion for a year.

[Zenjo]

I think the WWE became a good match factory sometime around late 1999 to the current day.

Having watched the 1999 Yearbook recently I'd say that from a good match perspective, 1999 is the worst year in company history. It wasn't until 2000 that there was any particular focus on producing good matches to satisfy the growing smark section of the fanbase. In the 80's and 90's the storylines were always first and foremost.

[GOTNW]

This is a good place to pose this question. Did fans start caring more about match quality organically as part of a changing landscape? Or did everything outside the in-ring just go so far to shit that fans who wanted to keep watching had to adjust their expectations to avoid a constant stream of disappointment?

I'm not sure I'm fit to answer this due to my age but honestly I've come to the conclusion putting your faith into wrestling booking is insane if you watch as much wrestling as I do. The majority of wrestling fans still care way more about things that aren't explicitly great matches. Not that they don't value that but if you go to reddit or wrestling forum or IDK, facebook posts, the most un-niche places that have wrestling discussion you can imagine, someone being over/under pushed will get way more discussion than a great match. It may just be that the format of the stories has changed and become more interactive.

[Microstatistics]

Before 1996 comfortably. Still after 1996 has a ton of great stuff - Incredibly loaded 1997, Battlarts/Futen, 97-99 RINGS, IWRG, 2001- 06 NOAH, mid 2000s ROH. For all the garbage they put out, WWE also has quite a lot of good-great matches.

[overbooked]

This is a good place to pose this question. Did fans start caring more about match quality organically as part of a changing landscape? Or did everything outside the in-ring just go so far to shit that fans who wanted to keep watching had to adjust their expectations to avoid a constant stream of disappointment?

 

Booking being awful is obviously one key component, but I wonder if caring about match quality is a consequence of the post-kayfabe era. When people believed in wrestling (or at least were willing to suspend disbelief) good booking was essential, as that is what drove the product and drove the engagement in the product. People watched because of the emotional attachment, because they cared who won and lost.

 

Once winning and losing stopped being important (mainly down to post-kayfabe reasons, but parity booking didn't help) booking didn't matter so much. Wrestling became entertainment, and an entertainment in itself. So matches themselves took on more importance. There was nothing else left to care about.

 

I'd also argue that wrestling completely moved away from the job match model to competitive stuff on TV, so matches mattered more. And the internal wrestling narrative highlighted "great matches" more, and "great matches" for their own sake, not for booking reasons. And then there was a generation of workers who had watched tapes and wanted to put on good matches, which was a shift from a generation of workers who wanted to make money by manipulating emotions.

 

I also wonder, at least within the smart/smark community if key people influenced how good wrestling was judged. Star ratings, Meltzer, many early internet reviewers etc were all geared towards judging wrestling on match quality rather than broader storytelling, at least to some extent.

[funkdoc]

i feel like the best stretch of booking in the modern era was NJPW's handling of the Okada push. that's something that absolutely shouldn't have worked on paper - Okada was a young lion then a TNA jobber, and all of a sudden people were supposed to buy him as a threat to the IWGP title. and well, you read the WON and you know how it went!

[Mad Dog]

The 2011 season of Chikara is an expertly booked year for a promotion. You have the whole 12 Large: Summit tournament to crown the first ever singles champion of the promotion. Everything builds up to their first iPPV High Noon and it blows off so many angles well.

[BigBadMick]

Thought I'd bump this to see if there's anyone wants to comment for the first time, or if anyone's changed their opinion.

[Loss]

The 80s isn't the gimme I once thought it was, and I'm not sure I'd pick it now. I might. But I really like the 90s and so far, I really like the 2000s. Every era has its plusses and minuses. When I think back on the 80s now, I think the "exotic" video quality, super hot crowds, great promos, rapidly changing landscape, and the feeling that I'm watching something that is relevant to the zeitgeist appeals to me more than the matches, even if the matches are great at times. So much more time passed between 1984 and 1987 than between 2014 and 2017.

[iamthedoctor]

Deffinately pre 1996, the Attitude Era at times tends to get overatted and id be happy to stick to just watching 80s matches.

[El-P]

The 80s isn't the gimme I once thought it was, and I'm not sure I'd pick it now. I might. But I really like the 90s and so far, I really like the 2000s. Every era has its plusses and minuses. When I think back on the 80s now, I think the "exotic" video quality, super hot crowds, great promos, rapidly changing landscape, and the feeling that I'm watching something that is relevant to the zeitgeist appeals to me more than the matches, even if the matches are great at times.

 

Interesting take. I tend to agree with it too (as far as US goes of course).

[BigBadMick]

Bumping this because it's been a year and I think it's an interesting way to take the temperature among posters....

[Mad Dog]

New Japan and Impact have been absolutely awesome this year. PWG has felt like its having a down year. RoH and WWE are absolute train wrecks. WWE is having a historically bad year booking wise. 

But New Japan has been great on the big shows. I would argue Dominion was an all time great show. The G-1 was really good this year as well. Impact has also been a compelling weekly product for about 9 months now.