dgrblue Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 No mater what, cena must stop using the stf! I am,sorry crossing your arms in front the opponent's face and making a stupid face is just awful. I mean it's like the time the godfather was in the angle lock and he had a lollipop in his mouth, looks foolish. We all know cena is staying, probably in the same tired and lame gimmick, not turning heel, because he works works with sick kids. So we as fans get fed the same stale crap, but we keep coming back. John ce,a is the poster boy for servicable wrestlers with great mic skills and charisma become long term top,stars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgrblue Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I love the idea of having trainers working with talent on nxt, regal is so smooth in the ring, booker t, christian, a-ry can all work the occasional feud on nxt. Regal, if nothing else, would be an excellent heel mouthpiece for a team or a stable. He can take over the tyson kidd and justin Gabriel team, make them blacker than black dark heels. Sheamus needs go be a heel. Cesaro is a face, ir a tweener. I agree with Will, if i never see the miz again, it will be too soon. This guy brings nothing to,the table, and usually, i chsnge the channel, or bathroom break,during the miz's segments. I am not sure i agree witht8gus with titus o'neal, to me he is,too green, not very good in the ring, however, he has to stop barking like JYD. I can see that angle you guys,proposed where he beats rusev, but i believe that it would be good, not great. Great idea on the podcast, cannot wait for the second installment. One thing that most of us,agree on, is that the product today is severely hampered by lack of competition, and not having other places to work. Wwe is in the same predicament that wcw was in back in 98. Oversaturation. Wwe has 5 or 6 top,guys, and has had the same 5 or 6 top guys for nearly 10 years. They have no,urgency, and are not willing to take risks, like they used to, that seems more of a product of being a public company, rather than pg, but still, boring stories, lame finishes, and cena burials. Wyatt v cena on paper looked to be a good thing, but instead of building wyatt into a monster, they booked cena the monster, and wyatt won on a flukey, gimmicky finish, in the cage. Wyatt was to win at wm30, but since vince booked the streak to end, he could not have his top stars lose. Bs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonaKrush Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I struggled getting through this and eventually turned it off because I was basically just disagreeing with everything. Yes, WWE writes shitty babyfaces, but the solution to that isn't to turn all their babyfaces heel. One of the best things about Cena is that he can work with actual heels and with flavor of the month babyfaces the crowd is behind, the same way the Rock did in 99-2000. Unless WWE has a guaranteed home run idea, turning Cena heel isn't a great idea because right now he sells merch and can still main event a show against Brock Lesnar one month and Roman Reigns the next. Also a bit disturbed by how many fixes were just "add hot chix." I actually like that wrestling has far less "change the channel if your family is in the room" segments than they did in 1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 The hot chix thing was firmly tongue in cheek so I could mention the lucha bikini girls who escort the luchadors to the ring. For the Adam Rose chix, I firmly believe what I said. You can't have a bunch of nerds and 40 year olds come to the ring with that guy and then tell me how cool he is. He needs hot women AND Jersey Shore musclehead escorts. As for disagreeing with everything, this is why the forum exists... to discuss the agreements and disagreements. We don't run from arguments and we allow for posters to back their opinions up. Feel free to list the wrestlers you disagree with that we mentioned. Heel turns suggested on the show... Sheamus, Adam Rose, Jack Swagger, John Cena (me, not Dylan), Kofi (I did not know that they already teased this on RAW earlier in the night). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrestlingPower Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 This was barely touched on in this show, maybe part 2 can partially rundown the NXT roster & fantasy book how to introduce & use some on the main roster. Curious to hear folks discuss how Zayn could actually be used instead of just saying "he needs to be on TV yesterday". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 We didn't touch NXT on Part Two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I actually have been wanted Swagger to be a face forever. Yes, sure, he's Biff, but so is 40% of America. There's something endearing and corny about him. I miss him as the All American American. I miss the Eagle. I think there was a natural face run that would have happened that year or the year after if they didn't abort the experiment. I think they could ride the babyface rush of patriotism for a few months and then he could be a mid-card babyface gatekeeper for a while. Also, he could be a pretty good hot tag for a babyface tag team with someone smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonaKrush Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 The hot chix thing was firmly tongue in cheek so I could mention the lucha bikini girls who escort the luchadors to the ring. For the Adam Rose chix, I firmly believe what I said. You can't have a bunch of nerds and 40 year olds come to the ring with that guy and then tell me how cool he is. He needs hot women AND Jersey Shore musclehead escorts. Except the whole point is he's a goofy comedy character, we don't need a super realistic portrait of clubbing, and we certainly don't need more Jersey Shore characters in wrestling. I already explained why there's not really a need to turn Cena, and Sheamus should only be turned if they get behind him and make him the #1 guy and sent Orton home for a few months. Sheamus has the size and the look of a top guy, he's just been plugged into that boring "Batista on Smackdown" spot that kills the character's heat the same way it did when it was Batista or Orton. It's not a question of needing to turn him, especially if you're turning Cena, it's a question of giving him an actual character that makes some internal sense. I know the WWE is planning on Reigns being a main eventer by next year, but Dean Ambrose's ability to have a character that makes sense seems to be getting him a huge boost on a show where every other babyface is white noise. With a lot of these guys, it's more the booking than face/heel alignment. Titus O'Neal isn't a great worker, but he's a huge dude with a good look, and WWE can't think of anything for him to do except lose to Sheamus 20 times in a row. It'd make a ton more sense to have a guy like that with a "traditional" look just going out there and crushing little guys so that it actually means something when a babyface beats him (they're doing that with Rusev, but I've got a sinking feeling that's just to feed him to Cena in 2-3 months). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I agree that there is not a "need" to turn Cena, and if you want to keep steady it's probably wise not to. He's still the top house show draw in the company, as well as the top merch guy (by far). But I still contend that there is absolutely no chance that the WWE will heat up again as long as he is a clear 1A babyface. I don't say that as a way of attacking Cena. I'm not a Cena hater at all. In fact I think at his peak he's the best big match worker in the history of the WWE, and in many ways he saved the promotion from HHH hell when he was pushed to the top. But his act has leveled off, comes across as incredibly stale, and is not in a position to "re-heat" any time soon. There is an argument that with the Network/TV Rights failings, turning Cena now would be an unbelievably dangerous thing to do (I actually made the argument at length on a recent reaction show podcast at P2BN), but if you aren't going to turn him you have to quit presenting him as a cheapshot artist who undercuts other big faces who are arguably hotter with the crowds, and you need to think seriously about scaling him down after he loses the belt to Brock. Again I just can't see anyway that John Cena in his current form can be the 1A babyface of a meaningful hot wrestling company. On the "hot chix" thing I'm fairly indifferent to it, though I do think if you are trying to create stars and/or appeal to different audiences then you have to ditch the obviously hokey stuff and present characters that are "cool." I can see the argument that "hot chix" aren't the best way to do it, but I have pretty "meh" feelings about the "I feel more comfortable watching with my family!" talking point in general. I've made the point a million times and I will forever stand by it, that if you are looking for a "safe" family show you probably shouldn't be watching a show that's entire premise is "guys solving their problems and disagreements with one another through extreme acts of sanctioned violence. With Adam Rose I'd just as soon cut him precisely because of the fact that he's a shitty comedy character. I agree with Will's point that if you are going to present him seriously you go that way, but I actually think the plan all along was for him to have this role as a 87th rate Santino and/or 3MB and it annoys me to death because he's not in the same universe as either one of those acts. With almost all of these guys it's more the booking than the general character portrayal, but some guys strike me as being clearly more marketable, interesting, fresher characters as heels than faces. Sheamus is one of them, and he's probably my favorite worker on the roster at this point and a guy who I think is a better worker as a face, so it's hardly playing to my selfish interests as a fan to make that point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonaKrush Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 On the "hot chix" thing I'm fairly indifferent to it, though I do think if you are trying to create stars and/or appeal to different audiences then you have to ditch the obviously hokey stuff and present characters that are "cool." I can see the argument that "hot chix" aren't the best way to do it, but I have pretty "meh" feelings about the "I feel more comfortable watching with my family!" talking point in general. I've made the point a million times and I will forever stand by it, that if you are looking for a "safe" family show you probably shouldn't be watching a show that's entire premise is "guys solving their problems and disagreements with one another through extreme acts of sanctioned violence. With Adam Rose I'd just as soon cut him precisely because of the fact that he's a shitty comedy character. I agree with Will's point that if you are going to present him seriously you go that way, but I actually think the plan all along was for him to have this role as a 87th rate Santino and/or 3MB and it annoys me to death because he's not in the same universe as either one of those acts. With almost all of these guys it's more the booking than the general character portrayal, but some guys strike me as being clearly more marketable, interesting, fresher characters as heels than faces. Sheamus is one of them, and he's probably my favorite worker on the roster at this point and a guy who I think is a better worker as a face, so it's hardly playing to my selfish interests as a fan to make that point You can keep making that point if you want, but I would hope WWE at least has realized that they get better sponsors, don't deliberately exclude the significant percentage of their audience, and generally don't need to put over local strip club talent at the expense of their midcard. Like I said, I actually like that there's less "turn the channel" garbage then there was 12-15 years ago. I miss how stale the roster is, how little change there is at the top, and plenty of other stuff, but I don't miss Jerry Lawler screaming about "puppies" at all. I think there's still potential with Rose as a comedy character, but I agree he hasn't been great in the role. But to be fair, Santino, who is admittedly better at it, had a pretty dreadful 2014 as well, so a lot of it is just the non-NXT writers. Like I said re: Sheamus, it would only be worth doing if Orton takes a break and he's given a run as a legitimately top heel, and you just hope enough of the crowd doesn't remember how weak he looked as heel champ during the whole Nexus thing, otherwise what's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 For chrissakes, nobody is advocating the Godfather's hoes coming out so Val Venis can fuck them in the shower. We are simply stating that you should get, as the Beatles said "the Beautiful People" as part of the Exotic Express if you want anybody to think it is a "cool" movement. It may be a comedy act but it was pushed by Cole as something that was cool. During the show, we rarely said turn a guy heel or face without giving some sort of booking idea or stating why we thought they made a better face or heel. Every single idea is with the intent of booking somebody properly or freshening up the character. It isn't rocket science. For Sheamus, you turn him heel by cutting a promo, beating people up, injuring guys people love and making them a world title threat. Mark henry in 2011 proved you can rehabilitate a guy by treating him seriously. It doesn't matter what Randy Orton's position is in the company. For the record, we said Orton needed to go on a long vacation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 This was a good listen. When Wyatt turns face they should pair the other two dudes with Zeb. That Family idea was gold. WWE really need to turn stuff upside down. Get rid of Orton, RVD, Miz, Jericho, Kane, Big Show, Sandow (who I like but he's done and the current gimmick is terrible), Alberto del Rio (only guy out of those that I really like but I don't think he's salvageable anymore), heel authority figures and start repackaging people and bringing new faces from NXT. Orton can be brought back after a long time but I can't see what could you do with the others. They are done as characters. I hate the Russo style resets but WWE is so boring and stale that they need to do something radical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Titus O'Neal isn't a great worker, You lost me when you said this, because not only is Titus a great worker the argument could be made that he's currently the best worker in the WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 ??? The quote function screwed up, fixed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jushin muta liger Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 When did Titus O' Neal become one of the best workers in WWE? I'm asking a real question because I don't watch Superstars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 For me it was probably about three or four months ago. Dylan may have been hip to him prior to that, but that's when I started to take notice of how intelligent he was in using his size, working his spots into a match, his bumping, his selling, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 The kid at the WWE panel asking Bryan why he was so exciting when Randy Orton was so boring was pretty hilarious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KonaKrush Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Titus O'Neal isn't a great worker, You lost me when you said this, because not only is Titus a great worker the argument could be made that he's currently the best worker in the WWE. I just said Titus should be booked better than being used as a jobber, but no, the argument really can't be made that he's the best worker in the company, that's pretty hyperbolic. He might have potential (and I think he does), but you can't really argue that a guy that has what, 3 matches six minutes long since his turn is the best worker in a company that employs Cesaro, Ambrose and Rollins, Luke Harper, Sheamus, Daniel Bryan, and others that have put on match of the year type matches. But seriously I like the guy and think he could be a solid monster heel, he's legitimately huge and does a good job showcasing it when he's not eating pinfalls in 30 seconds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 You can make that argument, because his work over the past four months could be said to be better than every guy you listed. Six minute matches don't matter, it's what a guy/gal does in those six minutes that make them a good or not so good worker. Titus makes the most out of his six minutes. It could be argued that he's been helped by being left alone to do his thing on Main Event/Superstars while everyone else has been hampered by Raw/Smackdown/PPV booking and match layout. But, I can only judge what a guy does in the ring, and based on that Titus has been one of the best workers in the world, and the WWE for 2014. I fact I think he was number 19 in my top 50 of 2014 list, and only behind a handful of WWE guys, one of which, Bryan, he's now easily surpassed. I love great matches, I have an entire website dedicated to them. But, they don't tell the whole story. A great worker doesn't need great matches, he/she simply needs to give great performances in the matches that they have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillThompson Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 For the sake of clarification the only WWE guys I had ahead of Titus when I made my list were Cesaro, Goldust, and Daniel Bryan. A few weeks removed from said list and I would now place him ahead of Bryan, and say he's neck and neck with Cesaro while still not having the year that Goldust has had so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chief Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 They need to team up Zack Ryder and Heath Slater and follow the exact same blueprint they used for Billy and Road Dogg in 1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 ^great idea for a team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 With this, the reaction shows, and WC and WTBBP active again it feels like we're in a podcast golden age. The only thing I massively disagree with is Will's hatred of the Miz. He's pretty damn fun as the delusional Hollywood asshole, that bit on Smackdown with his parents was hilarious. This Int title feud with Ziggler is about the best use of them in ages. When's part two a comin? EDIT, I fucking LOOOVE the Ryback> Rusev idea by the way. I'm gonna be pissed with Dylan when it doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pantherwagner Posted July 27, 2014 Report Share Posted July 27, 2014 I only watch Raw (sometimes and ffwding a lot) and I am a Titus fan but I haven't seen him much recently. Last time that I saw him regularly he wasn't very good but the potential was there. Which Main Event or Superstars matches (with dates please!) are worth watching? I always thought that "hiding him" for months until he improved would be beneficial to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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