Greatest of All-Time project Interest?

[Goodear]

Promos are a troubling gauge for me because of the language barrior. Someone like Flair and Kobashi are pretty even work wise for me on the surface but since I dont speak Japanese and think Flair is great at promos, he would have to be ahead correct? Seems like an unfair mark against foreign stars as if that is part of the equation my top 10 would be all US guys.

 

By the same token, we then don't use promos as a reason to knock them either. Whereas Kobashi (just to use the same person as an example) may be the worst promo ever discussing how he just wants to be friends with Taue, we wouldn't generally have any idea. I just have to agree that promos should be seen as less important than being engaging in ring with physical charisma which would transcend any language barrier.

[Dylan Waco]

The important thing here is that we can redo this and I can vote for people like Colon, Buddy Rose, Blackwell, Hoshino and Tajiri. Although 100 seems like an unbelievably small number now.

[Matt D]

Who the heck is Hoshino?

 

This is getting off to a fine start.

[Dylan Waco]

The most underrated Japanese wrestler...ever? More later in the relevant section

[concrete1992]

Hoshino?

 

Already frothing at the mouth at the thought of learning about hundreds of wrestlers I've never seen before. GRAND! There are quite a few guys I feel that have actual work that may beef them up and there seems to be guys that have more people in their corner than 2006. Or less people in some cases. Feel like I might need to drop some money for "research" purposes.

[Ricky Jackson]

That being said, the guy who ranks Bulldog Bob Brown #1 because he was on the scene when they were a kid should have his vote discounted (and sanity checked)

 

 

Don't worry, that guy is long gone

[Shining Wiz]

 

That being said, the guy who ranks Bulldog Bob Brown #1 because he was on the scene when they were a kid should have his vote discounted (and sanity checked)

 

Don't worry, that guy is long gone

I pray this is a joke, and said person did not actually exist.

 

Though, I've only ever seen gnarled, 55 year old Bob Brown. Maybe young Bob Brown deserves some consideration. (Please read sarcastically)

[moazzam23]

I've been watching 80's NJPW lately and yeah Hoshino's really good. Don't know how he's rated traditionally but he was always a midcarder right?

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Is there much 70s Hoshino out there? He was one of my favourites from the NJ set.

[ohtani's jacket]

Kobashi is a terrible promo for what it's worth.

[tim]

Since the 2006 poll is being evoked in this discussion I think this should run like that one did: basically, greatest WORKERS of all time. It's enough of an "objective" criterion so it doesn't end up just being a list of favorites but is subjective enough that the barrier to entry is low and you don't need to have a great deal of historical/business knowledge. If this is meant to be something of a "successor" poll to 2006, it should be on work and work only.

 

I'd definitely participate. I first stumbled on Smarkschoice some time in 2005 when this project was first being discussed, even submitted a top 50. I could probably find it but I don't really want to!

 

Edit: WKO had a half-hearted effort at this 2 years ago, which at least resulted in a couple good threads to read:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/index.php?showforum=81

[Lee Casebolt]

 

I'm not married to drawing. I'm less married to drawing than most people, to be honest, since I think you can tell everything you need about a wrestler from the matches we have, generally, whether they're main event matches or opening matches on cards. I'm very much a proponent of looking for patterns in how wrestlers deal with specific situations over time as opposed to putting all the stock in GREAT MATCHES. So yes, drawing isn't actually something important to me.

 

It's just the #1 WON HOF metric from what I can see, and certainly the thing that's argued the most in those notes, so I thought it had to be raised.

 

It is the # 1 metric for the WO HOF. This project from how I gather is completely different than the Observer HOF . If their is no footage I don't see how you can vote for someone. So Strangler Lewis shouldn't be on the list via the Microscope point.

 

 

I am definitely starting an Ed Lewis thread now. I know there are at least three matches out there.

[shoe]

Awesome knock your self out.

[BillThompson]

I'd be down for this.

[JerryvonKramer]

This will give me some impetus to finish my Dory Funk Jr and Harley Race projects. I'm not ruling out the possibility of putting out a "why Dory should be in your top 100" show one day.

[Loss]

I think it might also be a motivation for you to dive into 90s All Japan finally. I know you've been wanting to.

[JerryvonKramer]

Yeah, seems pretty much mandatory really -- aside from the obvious, it could also help push Jumbo and Hansen up further for me, and maybe finally help understand the fuss about Steve Williams (for example).

 

I'm also going to have to do at least a cursory viewing of post-2001 stuff too, just for due diligence ... trying to think of a way to do it. I've got a lot of Grimmas's half-year MOTYC 2014 picks ready to watch, and Will once accidentally sent me a MOTYC 2010 set. But I might have to have a little mini-project at some point to do a general watching of stuff with some PWO guidance. Imagine a baby Popeye being force-fed his spinach by Poopdeck Pappy -- that'll be me watching pimped matches from the 00s and 10s.

[Grimmas]

I think you would love Drew Gulak. Although, he'll never make the list.

[JerryvonKramer]

Promos are a troubling gauge for me because of the language barrior. Someone like Flair and Kobashi are pretty even work wise for me on the surface but since I dont speak Japanese and think Flair is great at promos, he would have to be ahead correct? Seems like an unfair mark against foreign stars as if that is part of the equation my top 10 would be all US guys.

The thing is though, I'd want to include guys like Bruno Sammartino and possibly even a Dusty Rhodes or someone like that on my list, and what made those guys great does not strictly come down to "work".

 

I think if people are going to include someone like Riki Choshu on their list, at least a part of it would be his undoubted charisma and aura, the way he carried himself.

 

So does that mean that it's "fair" to take those aspects of Choshu into consideration?

 

What I'm saying is that making a rule like this puts a guy like him at an advantage because we're sort of taking his non-work aspects into consideration while crippling the main strengths of a guy like Dusty.

[Loss]

I think there are many ways to sell a storyline. Choshu is obviously capable of selling one, as is Dusty. It's a strong point for both guys. It's just that American guys are generally speaking more inclined to sell a storyline by talking about it. But it's not like anyone other than me complains about Ricky Steamboat's mic work. On the flip side, Akira Hokuto cut what seemed to some pretty impassioned promos during her feud with Kandori. There are going to be outliers like that in both directions.

 

And yeah, that's absolutely something I'll consider. But it's more about the outcome and less about the tools used to get to the same destination. So if people want to factor in things like promos, I don't have much of an issue with that.

[JerryvonKramer]

Serious question: do you factor in Terry Funk piledriving Flair on the table into the greatness of either guy?

 

I think it's an important question.

[Matt D]

I think I'm more a tools guy, weirdly Enough, but it's tools over time. My big thing is whether the wrestler shows me he understands the art of pro wrestling. Who shows me he can understand and utilize it the best in a wide range of situations, wins.

[JHawk]

This is such an awesome idea that words can't express it.

 

The criteria needs to be as open as possible. I'm OK with saying "100 greatest workers ever". But some people consider "work" to be everything: wrestling ability, drawing, promo work, ability to bring a crowd into the match, etc. For example, Bobby Heenan acknowledged that Jesse Ventura was a horrible wrestler, but turned around and said he could work because he was charismatic enough that his ability to work the crowd carried him and disguised the poor match quality. So there's some merit into including criteria that isn't just "how many great matches did they have", but if someone is using that as their primary (or only) qualifier, then that makes the debate better.

 

FWIW, Ventura is NOT likely to make my list, but I'm using that as an example as to why the criteria should be open.

[soup23]

Choshu has plenty of matches that make md think he was one of the 100 best wrestlers on work. What I've seen if Bruno and dusty in ring presents a more hazy case. Building up items like aura and promos again feels more about their won hof credentials than the spirit if what I think this list would accomplish. We know each if those two were much bigger stars and draws thank Jushin liger. We're they better in ring workers? No fucking way. Putting in those parameters, I feel I have no choice but to put then ahead which doesn't sit well with me. I need as even a playing field across all generations as possible in evaluating candidates. Promos makes that impossible due to language constraints.

[anarchistxx]

Fuck me, nearly ten years already since the Smarkschoice poll? Crazy. I don't think I'm qualified at all to vote now, without a lot of serious watching. So much wrestling has happened since then and so much old stuff has been unearthed to change the consensus.

 

I think it should probably be expanded though i.e. have a 'Best Matches' poll and some other stuff. That would make it really definite, and with over a year to put it together wouldn't be hard at all. Should do what SC did as well, email and contact all the major IWC players to get lists. Think even Meltz was sounded out before but he declined.

 

Think the amount of Joshi will decline considerably, SC was the board for that.