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Jumbo Tsuruta


Grimmas

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The far worse problem is that over time I struggle more and more with the notion that someone can actually be great if I'd rather wash dishes, do the laundry, hit my testicles with a hammer, than watch him wrestle. One can make the "be objective!" argument all they want, but the fact remains that there are probably a thousand wrestlers I'd rather watch work than him. There are other people I am sick of to one degree or another, but with [Wrestler X]1 it's not that I'm sick of him - I cannot even stand the idea of watching him. And it's increasingly hard for me to believe that I should ignore that reality when rating him relative to others.

 

I've been trying for 20 years to articulate what I've felt when watching Flair from 1993 onward. In a paragraph Dylan does it far better than I have in several hundred thousand words. I need to copy & paste that somewhere to use in the future.

 

 

1 Edit mine.

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Jumbo will be very high on my list. I need to see more, but as I make my way through 1990s Jumbo I do have some issues that will probably keep Jumbo as a guy either in my low top 10 or just outside of my top 10. My biggest gripe is his goddamn Sleeper. I vehemently disagree with the notion that he makes it look like a finisher. When Jumbo pulls out that Sleeper I know it's time for Jumbo to rest for a bit and for him to lazily apply the hold on someone while any flow or momentum the match had going comes to a halt. I'm not a fan of his TC match in 89 with Tenryu because of the Sleeper. Jumbo goes to it multiple times and it never serves any purpose, or looks good in any way.

 

Others have touched on his use of the Single Leg Crab, but that doesn't bother me as much. He applies it perfectly fine, and actively works the hold, that's enough for me. It really all comes back to that Sleeper and how when Jumbo has decided he doesn't want to work he says screw it to momentum, flow, story, etc and just locks in a terribly applied Sleeper.

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To a degree this gets into the "my favorite" v. "the best" debate, but it goes a bit beyond that because my reaction to Jumbo is a sort of visceral contempt at this stage. I react to his presence in a match the same way Cena-haters claim they do with one difference - where most Cena haters will still watch Cena work, I have gotten to the point where I will avoid a Jumbo match at all costs. This is not an exaggeration. I watch tons and tons of wrestling, probably as much or more than anyone on this forum. I have watched lots of shit for the purposes of this project. I don't think I have watched a single Jumbo match for it and have actively avoided watching matches of his that have come up in playlists and sets that I have been watching for the purpose of this project.

 

This presents two problems. The first is that it is pretty damn hard to reevaluate/assess a wrestler relative to others when you aren't watching him. That said I have watched tons of Jumbo in the past so I find this to be more of a minor problem than a major one.

This is something that I think a lot of people are gonna have with a lot of different wrestlers, not just top-tier guys like Jumbo or Flair or what have you. A lot of it is oversaturation, but there's also the element that over time, when you see something you like, you're drawn more to work of that caliber than even those who are considered GOAT candidates just for the sake of being considered GOAT candidates. I totally think that's a worthwhile reason to not rank someone that highly, and it mainly has to do with the fact that when you expand your horizons, if you enjoy something else, it's gonna come before it and so on. I don't think any of us are going to be able to watch as much as we want to for this project, only what we can, and going back and not ranking Jumbo highly or even at all on anyone's list is not going to be something I argue about with anyone. There's no mandatory picks here, even if they're held in high regard by a general consensus.

 

Now I fall onto the opposite side of the ledger here, in the sense that over time, I've come to appreciate the stuff I really enjoyed when I first expanded my horizons into 1990's Japan and such. Some of it is a bit nostalgic, most of it is stylistic, but there isn't much that's going to change my mind at this point. I'm hoping to get to a lot of other things that are pimped highly in the 80's or in the nooks and crannies inbetween, but at the same time, I'm only going to seek out the stuff I think is noteworthy relative to what I like (which we all do to an extent). If I'm not excited about watching a guy work, there's a good chance I won't rank him that highly anyways, and so it's a moot point. The problems for me come up with "This guy is such a slam dunk #1 candidate that he has to be seen" when in reality, while we all seek out recommended stuff, sometimes it's not going to interest us that much. And that's fine. I understand some people think this is a hivemind-type place, but let's not actually become one here. :)

 

That's why I really love this project as a whole and why I'm sticking to my guns about this being a really tight Top 10 vote. Just from how I've seen people talk about a lot of candidates, I'm ready for about a dozen different wrestlers occupying the top spot, and a Top 25 that could have some extremely interesting candidates, which a couple that will come out of nowhere and really surprise people. I'm also totally ready for the idea that guys who were a part of the last SC poll near that top of the list having heavy falls down the list or being omitted completely. I'm really getting excited for how this is all going to shape up.

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NB. Still need to see a few 70s matches vs. Bock, Billy Robinson and a couple of others. These are my complete ratings for Jumbo.

 

Looking at it, I actually wonder if Flair has him beat for quantity by a fairly significant margin. The list isn't quite as long as I thought it would be.

 

(note also, these aren't ranked within the ratings, chronological order)

 

*****

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/83)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu Yoshiaki Yatsu (1/28/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/87)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (6/5/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (09/01/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (04/20/91)

 

****3/4

 

Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk (03/13/75)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Kerry Von Erich (2/3 Falls) (5/22/84)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (10/28/88)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Kenta Kobashi vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Stan Hansen (7/15/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (06/08/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (09/30/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (05/22/92)

 

****1/2

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Harley Race (6/11/77)

Giant Baba and Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. and Terry Funk (12/15/78)

Giant Baba & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Terry & Dory Funk Jr. (11/30/79)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (2/5/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Stan Hansen (10/21/86)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (10/28/88)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Kabuki & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi & Akira Taue (05/26/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (11/29/91)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Steve Williams & Terry Gordy (10/07/92)

 

 

****

 

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Jack Brisco (01/30/74)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dory Funk Jr. (12/18/75)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Dick Slater (5/1/80)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Ric Flair (6/8/82)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Nick Bockwinkel (2/23/84)

Genichiro Tenryu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Killer Khan & Riki Choshu (8/2/85)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Stan Hansen & Ted Dibiase (8/31/85)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Genichiro Tenryu vs. Riki Choshu & Yoshiaki Yatsu (11/30/85)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Toshiaki Kawada (2/26/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu (8/31/87)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Yoshiaki Yatsu vs. Genichiro Tenryu & Ashura Hara (9/15/88)

Yoshiaki Yatsu & Jumbo Tsuruta vs Toshiaki Kawada & Genichiro Tenryu (1/22/89)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (10/19/90)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Kenta Kobashi (04/20/91)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (10/15/91)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Toshiaki Kawada (09/04/91)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Masa Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (10/15/91)

Jumbo Tsuruta & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi (06/05/92)

Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi (08/20/92)

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Huh? I didn't say that. There are 42 matches there, I've seen many more Jumbo matches than that, but that's the stuff I have at the top end that I would build any GWE "great match" case from.

 

Here's a complete list of my ratings from the 80s set, anything below B+ is less than ****: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5565451

 

Plenty of Jumbo in there.

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I do see people who are anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo as being "contrarian", but you'll always get that with establishment GOAT picks.

How boring is this? Shows no forward thinking since 2006.

Is the point of GWE to be accurate or novel?

 

How about challenging assumptions?

 

 

From my experience, getting involved in debates over this type of thing doesn't go anywhere good. But I feel the need to defend Parv here. He challenged the assumptions about Dory at this board. He has challenged assumptions about Flair at this board. He has even challenged his own assumptions about the U.S. indy guys. He's not someone I think we can accuse of digging his head in the sand when he thinks he is right about something.

 

Also, I'd be interested in reading a real answer to the question he posed.

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The point of the GWE is to be as accurate as we can. That doesn't mean we should not re-evaluate everybody though. If Jumbo and Flair are number one and two, that is cool. If Jumbo and Flair are number one and two, just because that has been the long narrative and people haven't re-evaluated them and looked at others, that is bad.

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I do agree with that. At the same time, if Jumbo isn't number one because making him number one would be "boring", that is also bad.

 

I'm not really coming at Dylan with that post, as he has a visceral reaction to Jumbo at this point that I don't see the same way, but at least it's not rooted in response to popular consensus. It was more of a response to OJ.

 

I see the wrestling fan psychology on full display in a lot of this process. If someone is pushed too hard, many people reject it outright and would prefer to see someone new on top.

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I would note that Jumbo will appear in my top 100 for sure. There is not way I could leave him off in good conscience. The problem is that I'm also not sure I can rate a guy who I loathe watching that much in the absolute tip-top, tier. I guess a good way of looking at this is that ultimately the single most important trait a wrestler should have is to be engaging and instead of finding Jumbo engaging I find him repellent. I can't rate a guy I find repellent number one, top five, or top ten. Very likely I can't rate him top twenty either. Top thirty? I'd be hard pressed to let him fall farther than that. Too much that I think is great both in terms of matches and individual performances.

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I question the idea of "accuracy" here. Clearly this is very subjective material that involves a lot of personal biases and feelings towards the wrestling that is being watched. If I think a certain wrestler or style is boring I'm probably not going to put much time or effort into watching. Even if it's something that's been critically acclaimed and is almost universally thought of as great. I disagree with Dylan on Jumbo, but I do understand how he feels about watching him. I can't in any way pretend that it would be wrong of him to leave Jumbo off his 100 if he honestly hates watching Jumbo wrestle. Regardless of anyone's opinion on Jumbo, I can't imagine anyone would make the argument that he ought to include Jumbo despite his feelings because they feel the guy is basically a shoe-in. If that were the case there wouldn't be the need for everyone scrambling to watch all of this footage. I'm sure everyone on here has seen names on this list that they absolutely disagree with and will not put the time into watching. That's one of the main reasons I think accuracy is a hard thing to achieve. However many different ballots are submitted seems equal to the amount of sets of criteria that were used that went into those ballots. Dylan, Parv, Bill, Ackermann, OJ, jdw, Loss and Tim would very likely have different-looking ballots based on their own views on wrestling with different explanations as to why each wrestler was given the spot they were. Which is the right one if we're looking for accuracy.

 

And I think it's hard to have a project like this without some novel picks thrown in, be it because of somebody's personal preference or an attempt to be different by putting an unlikely name really high (or low, or on the ballot, etc.) It's going to happen, but the more ballots you get the less it's going to impact anything.

 

Overall, I think that one of the most difficult aspects of this kind of project is the "what is everyone else going to do?" factor. It's really easy to get wrapped up in trying to make things happen the way you think they ought to. But the reality of it is you're going to have an incredibly diverse amount of responses, many of which don't line up with your way of thinking. The best you can do is put the time and thought into your own list that you can (given how much time you get to watch wrestling) and have that to fall back on when you start second-guessing this or that placement. I can see trying to make a convincing argument for your favorite wrestlers as it becomes an issue, but at a certain point it is on the other voters to see the things they want in the wrestling. You can't force them to see somebody differently if they aren't going to.

 

To Dylan's point above, late career Kobashi is hit and miss, with the misses driving me up a god damn wall. If I do make a 100 I can't see him below 30, but there are ways that his very late 90s and 2000s matches wear on my last nerve to the point where higher than that is not going to happen. This despite my absolute LOVE for his early career. I actually think there is a connection between that and my hatred for his later career, but that's for another topic. This is more to highlight the idea that personal biases will show up everywhere you look. I'm not going to say that Kobashi isn't a great talent, but I personally refuse to rate the guy very highly because he gets on my nerves.

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Everyone should make their own list. If enough people do it, biases get washed out by the average. This is why I've said before that a guy like Arn Anderson will do extremely well when all is said and done because he's a lock top half pick for almost everyone and doesn't divide people the way others do.

 

Everyone's list will have biases. The point of taking in a lot of opinions is to measure critical consensus at a snapshot in time.

 

I'm sure there are critics who vote for Sight and Sound's decade lists who don't like Hitchcock. Their votes are counted but when all is said and done Vertigo is still up there. The same will be true of the top five guys here.

 

The "interesting" parts of the list will be to see which other names rise and fall. A decent placement for Jerry Blackwell, a worker a lot of us like, is probably more interesting at the end of the day than which order Funk, Flair, Hansen, Jumbo and Misawa finish in.

 

No one will be surprised if Flair finishes at any position from 1 through 5. It would be a shock if he was lower than that, but he's so many people's default #1 that that won't happen. Even if vocal and influential people like Grimmas or Dylan or jdw are lower on him. Same with any of the top tier guys.

 

To OJ's point, in a way the more interesting parts of the list will be to see if someone like Jim Breaks ranks. How high will Buddy Rose be? Will any of the 70s guys make the list and how high? Will guys like Curt Hennig or Brian Pillman or Rick Rude rank?

 

The very top of the list is not going to see a lot of change, but below that I think there's a lot to play for.

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I do see people who are anti-Flair or anti-Jumbo as being "contrarian", but you'll always get that with establishment GOAT picks.

How boring is this? Shows no forward thinking since 2006.

Is the point of GWE to be accurate or novel?

 

How about challenging assumptions?

 

 

From my experience, getting involved in debates over this type of thing doesn't go anywhere good. But I feel the need to defend Parv here. He challenged the assumptions about Dory at this board. He has challenged assumptions about Flair at this board. He has even challenged his own assumptions about the U.S. indy guys. He's not someone I think we can accuse of digging his head in the sand when he thinks he is right about something.

 

Also, I'd be interested in reading a real answer to the question he posed.

 

 

An original, creative, thought provoking list is better than an accurate list. An accurate list implies that there is an established cannon and a hierarchy and order that should be followed. I would rather see a list that's eclectic and exciting and reflects the depth and breadth of people's viewing experience. The beauty of the first list was that it was a capsule of what people from different various different sites thought at the time; an amalgamation, or really culmination, of the thinking at that time. Hopefully, the next list will be too, but in order for it to be progressive, and to reflect how thinking has changed in the past decade, there needs to be more discourse. That idea that Tenryu is better than Jumbo is a great idea; well worth exploring and discussing, and indeed having a spirited debate about. The fact that it doesn't fit into some sort of Sight and Sound concept and is more an idea from one of those alternative lists that are put out to prove how stodgy and unoriginal S&S is, doesn't make it any less invigorating of a topic idea. It may not end up being accurate, but it's a whole lot more interesting than having a predetermined one and two.

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But the Sight and Sound list doesn't set out to be "stodgy" or anything, it is just literally a list made from the films that all of the critics and all of the directors pick.

 

Just so happens lots of them really really rate Vertigo and Citizen Kane. This is similar, nobody is setting out to do anything, but it just so happens that lots of voters really rate Flair, Jumbo and Stan Hansen.

 

If OJ wants to submit a list he views as uber progressive or whatever, so be it. If enough people think the same, it'll reflect in final results.

 

"Accurate" doesn't mean "who are objectively the best 100 wrestlers" it means "who are the 100 people you genuinely think are the best 100". If enough people don't believe Jumbo is a top tier guy, that'll reflect in the voting.

 

My point was that if you deep down do think that Jumbo is a top tier guy but are going to omit him from the your list to be novel or interesting, is that really in the spirit of what we're doing? If you genuinely think Indy wrestler X is better than Ric Flair, then fine, but if you're just doing it to be quirky, that's what I question.

 

It's not about canon or interesting or anything else, it's just about the 100 guys you think are best. That's how I see it anyway. I won't be strategically bumping Dory up a few places just because I'd like to see him make the list. It's not about that. If I think he only makes #78th spot, that's where he'll be. This is what I mean by "accurate".

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The Sight and Sound voters know what's canon and which films were on previous lists. The previous results are highly influential. Regardless, it sounds as though you're referring to sincerity rather than accuracy. I can't remember where I voted for Jumbo last time. I think it was top 10, maybe even top 5. I'm moved on from Jumbo since then and would probably drop him down into the top 30 somewhere if I were to vote. If I were being disingenuous it would be closer to top 50, but I don't think dropping him down 20 places is insincere. I don't find him relevant at this point in time and haven't overly enjoyed the last few matches I watched. Just sticking with Japanese male wrestlers, I think Yoshiaki Fujiwara is better in every single way. I would have a hard time separating Jumbo and Fujinami these days. Tamura was a superior athlete and wrestler. Misawa was more of a genius. Hashimoto is more soul stirring. Tenryu I've never really gotten into the way others have, but Choshu grew on me a lot with the 80s sets. Jumbo's getting bumped down anyway you look at it. I really only like '89-91 Jumbo these days.

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The fact that it doesn't fit into some sort of Sight and Sound concept and is more an idea from one of those alternative lists that are put out to prove how stodgy and unoriginal S&S is, doesn't make it any less invigorating of a topic idea. It may not end up being accurate, but it's a whole lot more interesting than having a predetermined one and two.

 

 

It would be interesting if a secondary "results" for the GWE poll were run similar to Sight & Sound:

 

* Top 10 only counts

* 1 point only for each Top 10 finish

 

#1 finished on only 22.6% of the ballots. Only #1 and #2 were even on 15% of the ballots. #10 was only on 7.6% of the ballots, and #20 was on 5.4% of the ballots.

 

There's no way in hell the #1 GWE will finish on only 22.6% of the ballots, and #10 will be under 8%, given the length of the ballots here.

 

But if the Stat Keeper at the end also runs it in S&S fashion, one wonders if #1 is on that few of ballots, or if the Top 10 and Top 20 are on so few ballots.

 

Doubt it would have been the case the last time. This time...

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Too many subpar matches against other great workers and not enough quality with subpar workers to really be considered an all time GOAT. Who did he carry? Certainly had the opportunities to impress and pad his resume, getting marquee matches with the top names in the business for almost 2 decades that we have on tape. Honestly do not get the hype and see him as the most overrated guy of all time. Will provably make the bottom of my list for being involved in so many great matches over a long period of time (mostly tags) even if he was the worst guy in most of them. Boring on the mat, awkward brawler, tried too hard and was overly theatrical with his bomb throwing, selling and taunting.

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