Ric Flair

[jdw]

Ric had shit to do to pop the crowd. That was the basic gameplan.

 

If one just accepts that he's a spot worker just tossing good shit out to pop the crowd even if it doesn't make sense beyond that, then one will see he's a really good worker in that context.

[JerryvonKramer]

lol

[Childs]

I guess John wasn't persuaded by Parv's podcasts.

[jdw]

lol

[JerryvonKramer]

Genuine lol!

[conker8]

I was listening to Flair podcast with Morton and they are talking about Philly crowd and how Flair was able to turn the heel fans to cheer for Morton.

 

He really gets what the live crowd likes and dislikes. And not always "shit to pop the crowd".

 

Do you give him credit to make a North Korean crowd who know nothing about wrestling care about his match with Inoki ?

[Loss]

I think points like this are good, but often get conflated with someone like Hogan not being considered an elite worker. I think there's a difference between manipulating a crowd that's inclined to either not be excited or react differently than desired into coming on board and going into a match where the crowd already loves/hates the right people and sustaining that. There's nothing wrong (in fact, there's a lot right) with matches that fall into the latter category, but when I care about heat when comparing workers, I care about how the heat is manipulated and sustained in challenging situations, not just that it's there. Hey, crowds were predisposed to care about Flair too, but to me, factoring crowd reaction into a match rating isn't about how loud the crowd is, but how much that reaction was generated through specific actions of the wrestlers during the match itself.

[Jingus]

Do you give him credit to make a North Korean crowd who know nothing about wrestling care about his match with Inoki ?

I probably credit Inoki more for that one, for several reasons. Inoki was much more familiar with the Korean people than Flair was, he had a better idea of what sort of thing they'd like to see. The match itself felt much more like Average Antonio than it did Regular Ric, it was very spartan and minimalist and contained little of Flair's trademark stooging. (I think Ric was still nursing or recently coming back from an injury at the time, which certainly wouldn't have helped him put on a more dynamic performance.) But I do still give Flair plenty of props for being able to have any effect on that crowd at all, considering that it was over a hundred thousand non-fans who'd literally been forced to attend and had probably never seen rassling before in their entire lives.

[TravJ1979]

I would love to hear from critics of Flair who have actually watched his pre-94 work, in, I don't know, the last two decades.

[Wade Garrett]

I'd like to know who the fans are/were who saw Ric Flair around the horn in Crockett in the mid 70's thru early 80's?

 

We may have met?

 

Let's talk about Flair and his formula. Let's talk about that pre-NWA Title formula he worked.

[Grimmas]

I would love to hear from critics of Flair who have actually watched his pre-94 work, in, I don't know, the last two decades.

Hmm... I made my statements about Flair and have watched all of that stuff within the last few years.

[JerryvonKramer]

Interesting tidbit someone told me today:

 

Did you ever hear Regal praise Flair's matwork on the Steve Austin Show? He said he was first enamored by Flair when he saw him apply a wristlock because most Americans don't do it right and Flair actually did a proper one. Then he found out later he was a Billy Robinson trainee and so much about Flair made sense. He felt like in terms of technique, Flair had a stronger British sensibility than your average American wrestler, which was something I'd never heard anyone say and was interesting.

[WingedEagle]

What's the sense on Flair now? Are people bored and he's falling to the back of a top 10? top 20? Or is he in the mix for a top 3/5 spot for many?

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm a rare exception to Flair fatigue, in that it's not that I'm tired of watching or discussing him, but it's more that I don't have much to say about him in the first place. He's great, and everyone else has explained why so thoroughly by this point that I just have nothing to add to the conversation.

 

He'll be in my Top 10, no idea where though yet.

[JerryvonKramer]

I suspect that he'll be a lock for top 5, and probably even top 3. And most of what you see is a vocal minority.

[Childs]

Top five for me.

[Microstatistics]

I doubt a few omissions and some low-ish votes (like me) are going to stop him from finishing in the Top 3 (or at worst Top 5) of the final total list.

[joeg]

Could somebody recommend some Flair from before his first reign as world champ. Stuff with Wahoo, Piper, Dusty, or whoever. Also never saw the 95 G1, which Flair matches should I catch in that. Thanks

[JerryvonKramer]

Stuff from garbage tapes circa 1978 is quite a good look at pre-champ Ric

[Jingus]

Also never saw the 95 G1, which Flair matches should I catch in that.

The match with Mutoh is really the only must-see one, it's an insanely bloody brawl which is way more fun than any of their American bouts that I've seen. The others are mostly forgettable, aside from the sheer novelty of seeing the Nature Boy wrestle guys like Tenzan and Chono on their own home turf.

[Timbo Slice]

Again, I bring up this far into the process that a lot of people are digging in for weaknesses in Flair and that even with those weaknesses, everything that makes him one of the all-time greats supersedes those weaknesses by a large, LARGE degree. All for bringing up all aspects of people's career in the process, but there shouldn't be that much entropy when it comes to his career, regardless of what people think of his low points.

[Matt D]

I think I have him at 8 or 9 right now, despite it all.

[JRGoldman]

I suspect that he'll be a lock for top 5, and probably even top 3. And most of what you see is a vocal minority.

 

I don't want to start this insanely circular and terrible argument again, but didn't Flair finish 7th in the 2006 SC poll? Do you really feel as though he will climb multiple spots? If anything, we don't really have any new jaw dropping footage and his work after 06 was actively bad. I think it's reasonable to assume he might fall slightly, although he still seems like a lock for the top 10.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I suspect that he'll be a lock for top 5, and probably even top 3. And most of what you see is a vocal minority.

I don't want to start this insanely circular and terrible argument again, but didn't Flair finish 7th in the 2006 SC poll? Do you really feel as though he will climb multiple spots? If anything, we don't really have any new jaw dropping footage and his work after 06 was actively bad. I think it's reasonable to assume he might fall slightly, although he still seems like a lock for the top 10.

 

Nah, Flair was still on TV in 2006 and him not retiring was one of those perrenial smark axes to grind.

 

Also, the DVDR 80s projects happened in those 10 years which reminded everyone who took part in them why Flair was so highly thought of in the first place. I think many of us -- here on PWO -- sat down and watched and re-watched more footage than happened in 2006. And with that footage watching, as Will says, the cream will rise. And Flair has consistently been in highly ranked matches from basically every set.

 

In addition, you've had people like Chad and I go through a re-assess basically all his greatest hits from the 1980s. And well, y'know, more than 1,000 people -- and more importantly voters in this poll -- listen to that show whenever it comes out. Loss has also put out numerous shows about Flair over the past few years. Zellner and Bix are high on him (to my knowledge) and their show also has a good following. Even though some of the names are the same, this crowd is different from the SC crowd.

 

I mean, we'll see, but I don't see him finishing below the 2006 placement.

[Death From Above]

Without reading over 14 pages, I will just say that I think at times Flair doesn't get enough credit for the fact that he was a #1 national spotlight guy for as long as he was without (1) burning out his character or (2) being a guy that had a rep for burying his opponents in the ring. That he was on top as long as he was without offending on either of those points is honestly somewhat remarkable. When you combine it with the depth of his resume of matches that are "very good or better", there's really few guys in his league. No matter how I feel about the fact that his career has sadly lasted far too long and the last chapters aren't adding anything great.

 

I think he has a pretty strong case for wrestler of the decade in the 1980's.