Ric Flair

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't see any evidence to support the thesis.

Well, the evidence would be the four different things he does from the spot.

 

Intention has no bearing either [/barthes]

[Loss]

I think there's a gap between Flair's ability to think on his feet and his ability to explain that in words. It doesn't mean there was no thought put into how he worked as much as it means he's just not very good at explaining it because to him, wrestling was instinctive.

 

It's why Bobby Eaton was a great worker and a bad trainer. He couldn't explain why he did what he did. He just knew what to do.

 

Shoot interviews are bumpy terrain in my view, because some are better at showing than telling. And telling really isn't part of the job description of being a complete pro wrestler.

[JerryvonKramer]

Intentionality is a slippery slope. Analyse the work, not the man.

 

I also wonder -- and this is just wondering aloud -- if the "working smart" stuff is a lot of Johnny logic.

 

I am not specifically having a go at Matt or Steven, but the concept still feels nebulous and fuzzy to me and I like clarity. That stuff I mused on about the Flair flip is just a test case.

[Matt D]

No one touched my last explanation. I understand that Harley Race pile drivers are distracting but I'm not going down that road again while that is stil there.

 

I'd much prefer Johnny logic'ing Parv and Flair drinking together and talking about Shakespeare.

[AstroBoy]

Would it be wrong to compare the Flair Flip to the 619 in some ways? Both signature spots that can be annoying to some viewers, but spots when used to their full effect that can either be applied creatively (619) or can lead to different possibilities coming out of them (the flip).

[JerryvonKramer]

Would it be wrong to compare the Flair Flip to the 619 in some ways? Both signature spots that can be annoying to some viewers, but spots when used to their full effect that can either be applied creatively (619) or can lead to different possibilities coming out of them (the flip).

I'm not sure I'd lean on the options argument if I wanted to defend it, that was really something I just pulled out of my arse bored during a Terry Taylor match (but being Flair, he then went on to have a 4.75 with Taylor in the next one, so y'know).

 

My main defence would be to look instead had how much MOTION Flair creates in his matches -- Flair flip is just one such way. This is the biggest thing that stands out if you move from watching 70s footage to watching Flair. Where your 70s match might have a bit of rope running or a few throws, for the best part, the guys are static in the middle of the ring. This is even more marked if you go back and watch a 1950s match. They just stay in one area for most of the time. Flair, though, he's here, there, everywhere, up on the turnbuckle, outside the ring, over on the other turnbuckle, there's just so much damn movement. And if the aim of a wrestling match is to keep the audience engaged and from getting bored, that's what he's doing. It's not just a cheap pop, it's keeping you awake and engaged.

 

And if we really want to talk about Flair's intentions and Flair the man and what he says in shoots, he's consistently been down on guys like Johnny Valentine or Dory Funk Jr for just laying in headlocks. Flair believed in action. He was an all-action all-the-time wrestler. And the Flair flip is just part of that "all-action" effect his matches have.

[Dylan Waco]

At this point I'm literally unsure of what Parv's original point was.

[JerryvonKramer]

At this point I'm literally unsure of what Parv's original point was.

 

I don't know if I had one beyond pointing out that the flip does give him different options.

[Childs]

If Flair finishes top three (top five?) do we get to stop talking about him for the next 10 years?

[shoe]

If Flair doesn't finish top 8 I blame Parv.

[Microstatistics]

 

Ric Flair vs. Ricky Morton (07/05/86)

 

Every bit of information I've found about this match on the almighty internet had led me to believe this is the match in question. If that is indeed correct well.......I didn't care much for it. I found it amusing that they used "exposing Flair's ass" as a highspot. There was a spot where Morton went for an O'Connor Roll but Flair hung on to the ropes after which O'Connor did a backward somersault. It's a spot we've all seen about a million times. Here Morton sold it like it was an actual bump which looked incredibly stupid and a lazy means of transition. A lot of mediocre brawling. I liked Morton's Hiptoss/Dropkick combo. **1/2

 

The match you linked is not it. This is the match in question.

 

After a rewatch, I think the GAB Morton cage match is easily his best non-Steamboat match with maybe his best performance. I honestly feel he was better in brawl/hard-hitting style type stuff than in his more traditional title defenses.

[BigBadMick]

Time to throw the cat among the pigeons...

 

Has there been any new footage unearth since 2016 that might change anyone's opinion here?

[Matt D]

12 minutes ago, BigBadMick said:

Time to throw the cat among the pigeons...

 

Has there been any new footage unearth since 2016 that might change anyone's opinion here?

I think the only POSSIBLE thing was the we got some new clips of 1980 babyface Flair vs Valentine on the Network. Not quite 8 mm but clipped and spotty and it's pretty cool footage. He seemed really special that year. I think we just have a couple of matches from Rochester and a bit of other stuff here and there for arena footage for that run.

[Grimmas]

I know I am not the only one who put Flair higher on their list then they truly wanted to, but felt some kind of obligation to put them at a certain level. Flair will not be top 10 for me this time.

Flair is in the line of Race, Angle, etc... a great worker who leaps off the page and is loaded with great matches, but is not the smartest wrestler.

No idea where I'll rank him, that's going to take a lot of thought.

[strobogo]

I wasn't around for the last time but I've shit talked Flair for so long online and in the past 2-3 years I've seen way more pre-Horseman era stuff that I think I'm going to have to eat shit and put him in my top 10.

[Kadaveri]

16 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

Flair is in the line of Race, Angle, etc... a great worker who leaps off the page and is loaded with great matches, but is not the smartest wrestler.

If he's in that camp I still think he's at the very very top. We know Flair never thought things through, he always just depended on instincts to do whatever feels right in the moment. Maybe that's not 'smart', but the end product virtually always worked out fine. There are so many Kurt Angle matches that he ruins by doing totally stupid things, like how he doesn't seem to know any way to escalate other than spamming finishers, and if he's done that already then hitting finishers OFF THE TOP ROPE or something. I can't think of a single Ric Flair match that he ruins by making stupid decisions (I can think of bad Flair matches, but not because of that).

[Grimmas]

1 minute ago, Kadaveri said:

If he's in that camp I still think he's at the very very top. We know Flair never thought things through, he always just depended on instincts to do that right thing in the moment. Maybe that's not 'smart', but the end product virtually always worked out fine. There are so many Kurt Angle matches that he ruins by doing totally stupid things, like how he doesn't seem to know any way to escalate other than spamming finishers, and if he's done that already then hitting finishers OFF THE TOP ROPE or something. I can't think of a single Ric Flair match that he ruins by making stupid decisions.

So many of the first 15 minutes of his matches is completely useless and pointless to the rest of the match (not always but often). I think Flair is saved a lot from the era he was trained in, if Flair came around in 2000 he's be pretty identical to Angle (I think).

Although Flair does have great instincts, which does help to limit the issues with the lack of thought.

[Shrike02]

6 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

So many of the first 15 minutes of his matches is completely useless and pointless to the rest of the match (not always but often). I think Flair is saved a lot from the era he was trained in, if Flair came around in 2000 he's be pretty identical to Angle (I think).

Although Flair does have great instincts, which does help to limit the issues with the lack of thought.

These are some pretty sweeping assertions. What is your evidence supporting these views?

[Grimmas]

1 minute ago, Shrike02 said:

These are some pretty sweeping assertions. What is your evidence supporting these views?

Well no time machine, so we can't really show he'd be Angle.

However, the matches I'd have to really go look them up. I don't keep notes on matches I don't like, so not sure which they are. It's usually arm work though, that goes absolutely nowhere.

[strobogo]

Oh most definitely, Flair does arm work all the time that never ever goes anywhere. Especially in matches that go over 25 minutes. Pure filler work. He usually doesn't even start going into attacking a leg until the last 5-10 minutes in long matches, and in shorter matches usually not until the very end.

[elliott]

I still view him as a top 10 contender warts and all. Dunno if he'll get there but hes in that range. I suspect he wins or finishes 2nd to Bryan. 

[Matt D]

He's just so god damn entertaining all the time, the bastard.

[BigBadMick]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

He's just so god damn entertaining all the time, the bastard.

Come on, Matt. Is that sarcasm? What do you mean? 

[KB8]

I thought for absolute certain I'd seen every minute of Flair I ever needed to see after 2016 (or even 2013, honestly), but then I saw some of that 1980 babyface run, primarily from the Valentine feud, and man was he ridiculously fun. Truly awesome babyface energy, and not the sort of energy he'd bring to his babyface matches later, where he was pretty much still just Slick Ric but the crowd knew they were supposed to cheer him. He wasn't quite Slick Ric yet, not in 1980, not before the World Title run, and it was about as fresh as I ever could've hoped for out of a guy I've probably seen more often than any other wrestler in history. 

I don't know what his ceiling is this time, nor do I know his floor. I'd guess somewhere around 20-30. So not a whole lot different than last time, all things considered. 

[Boss Rock]

There's still a decent amount of his 80's work I haven't seen, but he's likely a top 10 contender.