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Grimmas

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Watching the 3/92 Hansen vs. Kobashi match it seems clear to me that Kobashi was the best match-up with Hansen among the so-called "four pillars" even if smart fans like myself don't necessarily want it to be. I mean, Misawa to me was the best of the four, which is rarefied air. Kawada, for many of us, was an internet darling on the level of Benoit, and Taue of late has gotten praise as a "smart" worker with a more innate understanding of psychology than his peers. (And to think we just used to argue that he was better in 1990-94 than given credit for.) But for some reason, Kobashi vs. Hansen is the best match-up perhaps because of the flexibility of how Kobashi lined up offensively, or perhaps for reasons we can't ascertain. In any event, Kobashi's offense seems to rock Hansen harder.

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On the All Japan Excite Series, here are the ratings I have for Hansen matched vs. Four pillars.

 

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (9/4/91)

 

***1/2

 

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (7/29/93)

 

****3/4

 

Stan Hansen vs Toshiaki Kawada (2/28/93)

 

*****

 

Seems like we didn't watch a lot of the Stan stuff.what other ones should I definitely check out and review?

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I found the August match to be the least of all their encounters in '92 and '93--not bad but a little dull, especially given how big a moment it was for Misawa. Not to say you shouldn't watch it but for a long time, people focused too much on that one relative to the matches that built to it.

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The 9/91 Kobashi bout is a lot of fun. Novel start with Joe saying he hit the Western lariat before the bell and Stan being all pissed at him. Great selling from Kobashi and a well timed comeback. Nice variety from Hansen during his control segments, switching action in and out of the ring with more fluidity than you sometimes get in an All Japan match. Nicely laid out finishing stretch with the teased ring outs, making me wonder who the equivalent of an All Japan road agent was. Great pump fake finish. Kobashi looked great in this. Self-assured, confident. The only false note was getting a bit too animated in the lead-up to the finishing stretch. I can understand the adrenaline kicking in and everything, but after being put through the ringer I think it's better to sell like you're in a daze than jacked up on adrenaline. Was pretty minor, though.

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I would agree with OJ, easily the best of the pre-93 Hansen vs. new generation singles bouts imo.

 

 

This is a little unrelated but if he can stomach watching them I'd be very interested in Matt D's opinion on the two Misawa-Hansen matches from 93 since Hansen sold A LOT for him and they were worked vastly differently than Hansen's matches vs Kobashi and Kawada.

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I would agree with OJ, easily the best of the pre-93 Hansen vs. new generation singles bouts imo.

 

 

This is a little unrelated but if he can stomach watching them I'd be very interested in Matt D's opinion on the two Misawa-Hansen matches from 93 since Hansen sold A LOT for him and they were worked vastly differently than Hansen's matches vs Kobashi and Kawada.

Give me a few days. I'll put up the fight.

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The 7/92 Kobashi match is another worthy entry into their feud. Unlike the '91 match where he's damn near KO'd at the start, Kobashi fights every inch of the way to assert control. There's a tremendous struggle early on for Kobashi to gain dominant position from a side headlock, which is paid off beautifully later on when he comes close to actual submission from the same position. Hansen really showed his versatility in this match showing he could just as easily work "hurt" as he could from a commanding position. One thing that struck my mind during the bout was how unique Kobashi vs. Hansen is in terms of one guy wanting to pin the other. There's no title chase, no personal vendetta, just one guy trying to prove he can pin another. Another thing that occurred to me is that Hansen doesn't really get the credit he deserves for having better matches with the younger generation than Jumbo regardless of the hepatitis. Great stretch run here. I can't say I've encountered "crying Kobashi" against Hansen. That damn lariat must have driven him nuts, though.

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I found the August match to be the least of all their encounters in '92 and '93--not bad but a little dull, especially given how big a moment it was for Misawa. Not to say you shouldn't watch it but for a long time, people focused too much on that one relative to the matches that built to it.

 

The 10/93 match is the least of their 1992-93 matches. The Carny Final in 1993 wasn't terribly interesting either. I felt the 1992 title change was more interesting than both, though admittedly it's not one of their best.

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I found the August match to be the least of all their encounters in '92 and '93--not bad but a little dull, especially given how big a moment it was for Misawa. Not to say you shouldn't watch it but for a long time, people focused too much on that one relative to the matches that built to it.

The 10/93 match is the least of their 1992-93 matches. The Carny Final in 1993 wasn't terribly interesting either. I felt the 1992 title change was more interesting than both, though admittedly it's not one of their best.

Yeah, I forgot about the 10/93 match. Have to agree about that one. God they worked each other a lot those two years.
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On the All Japan Excite Series, here are the ratings I have for Hansen matched vs. Four pillars.

Stan Hansen vs Kenta Kobashi (9/4/91)

***1/2

 

This seems too low. Was an easy ****, IMO.

As I recall, my issue with that match was Kobashi, who I thought was not quite there in 91 and did several things that bugged me during it. See AJ Excite Series #2.

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I would agree with OJ, easily the best of the pre-93 Hansen vs. new generation singles bouts imo.

 

 

This is a little unrelated but if he can stomach watching them I'd be very interested in Matt D's opinion on the two Misawa-Hansen matches from 93 since Hansen sold A LOT for him and they were worked vastly differently than Hansen's matches vs Kobashi and Kawada.

 

I watched 4/21/93 (I think).

 

First off, I loved the last third, everything from the arm to arm collision on, though relative to matches I've seen from this era, I thought maybe the finish needed one more wrinkle, even if that was a couple of knees right before he got him up or something. Again, that's not really on its own, but more relative to what else I've seen. I had expectations it was crashing up against. Obviously there's a ton of context I'm missing.

 

On the other hand, those expectations really helped the first third of the match. Hansen basically treated Misawa as if he was 1980 Andre. At least, that's how it felt, and for the most part it was credible. That is a huge testament to Misawa. I didn't love the opening exchanges but bits like Hansen not able to lock in a chinlock or headlock until after he put the kneepad down and did the two giant elbow drops (including one off the ropes) was a very nice touch.

 

The middle third lost me. Some things like that corner dropkick were nuts but I around the 14 minute mark on the video I was watching off youtube, I was kind of gone. A lot of times with these matches, the ending stretch validates the middle and I go back on a second watch, knowing where it ends up, and find bits to value more, and maybe I'd find that here knowing it all leads to the collision, but in the moment, I was tuning out somewhat. I lost the narrative.

 

But yes, he treated Misawa differently, or Misawa was able to hold his own more, or what not, but it meant something because of all the times Hansen just swallowed people before. That's capitol that you can build up to pay off in a match like this. I'm not convinced it's intentional though, and I still agree that it mainly has to do with his opponent.

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But yes, he treated Misawa differently, or Misawa was able to hold his own more, or what not, but it meant something because of all the times Hansen just swallowed people before. That's capitol that you can build up to pay off in a match like this. I'm not convinced it's intentional though, and I still agree that it mainly has to do with his opponent.

 

 

I'm convinced it is intentional because it has to do with his opponent. :)

 

Misawa was in the middle of establishing himself as the native ace of the promotion. Hansen was already a legend but he was a legend on the wrong side of 40. Kawada and Kobashi have both taken him to the limit in matches already in 1993 by now and Misawa is on a level above Kawada/Kobashi. Hansen was obviously still a key part of the promotion (he's not only winning this match, but he's taking the Champions Carnival with his victory) so he's kept strong but he has to make sure Misawa comes out of this match looking good since Misawa is still the TC Champ and top Native Wrestler.

 

I just watched it again and thought it was excellent. Misawa working the arm down the stretch is a nice change of pace for the typical AJ match. Loved all the Misawa elbows to the arm. Good stuff.

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I shouldn't post this until I think about it more.

 

There is Hansen who can build up that capital over years and pay it off at key moments, maybe even years down the line.

 

There are other wrestlers who can keep their capital and cash it in each and every match that they are in. Maybe it's not quite as meaningful but it's still extremely meaningful and it doesn't take a decade of steamrolling guys to make it work.

 

So even if it is intentional (and I will entertain the idea that at this point of his career, as opposed to ten years earlier, it was), there's a potential "Yes, but.." involved.

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So I watched the 7/93 Kobashi match for the first time in donkey years. It's kind of interesting watching it as the next chapter in the feud rather than in anticipation of one of the best All Japan matches of the 90s and one of the greatest matches of all-time. It's not quite as special as the work a lot of the same sequences they'd done previously, but I got behind Kobashi more than I would have if I'd watched it in isolation. People sometimes argue that Kawada should have gone over in his 6/94 match with Misawa, and I kind of thought that ignoring the lay of the land in 1993, the way they laid this out, Kobashi maybe should've gone over. I'm not sure he got much closer here than he did in the 4/93 Carnival match. Kobashi going over seemed like the next logical step in the way they worked the matches even if it didn't fit the booking. On the other hand, I'm not a fan of Kobashi doing the moonsault and that seemed his undoing here so thems the breaks. I think I'll rewatch the '94 CC match and see if I like it more in context.

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If one were to rank the wrestlers in the Baba Booking Hierarchy at the time, it would be this way:

 

1. Misawa

2. Hansen

 

3. Kawada

4. Gordy

5. Williams

 

6. Taue

7. Kobashi

 

Kobashi had 0 singles wins against #1, #2, #3, #5 & #6. He had just gotten his first one over Gordy in May.

 

On the flip side, Hansen had only done singles jobs for Misawa (the first one less than a year before) and Gordy. None of the other four had wins over him.

 

Baba was very formally structured at the time. Kobashi wasn't going to beat Hansen quite yet.

 

The problem is less that he beat him in 1994, but instead that (like Kawada finally beating Hansen in 1993) it was off television, off a big show, it was kind of buried rather than a big moment on a big show. Just a Carny League match, though at least there were cameras for a video tape release... though who knows how many that thing sold in those days.

 

Anyway, 1993 was way too early for Kobashi to beat Hansen. He was just starting to get some semi-final singles matches at Budokan... with this being the first one ever.

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I watched the '94 CC bout again, and I think it's a shame that Kobashi's win came in probably their worst match. I can live with the ribs injury being the excuse for Hansen's loss, but it wasn't ideal given how close Kobashi had been to beating Hansen in their '93 bouts based on his own skill and ability. Granted, you could argue that Hansen was still dangerous when injured and could still hit the lariat at any time, and that Kobashi showed a certain amount of skill by evading the attack that led to Hansen's injury, but that's fishing for excuses. Mostly, they tread over old ground, and in some cases regressed on what they had accomplished in previous bouts. The crowd were thrilled with what they witnessed, though, and seemed to view it as something special. I did like Kobashi face down clinging to the streamers as the magnitude of what he'd accomplished set in. It's too bad it had low quality dubbed in commentary instead of Wakabayashi.

 

Also, I keep overlooking the fact that Hansen had more than one match per year with a lot of these guys. The 1992 Carnival bout against Kobashi is JIP and doesn't add much to the feud, but it's an enjoyable 15 minutes or so.

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Elliott, I still have big issues with him along the lines of creative collaboration and the simple fact that at various points I actively hate the role that he's playing so well, but you made a great defense of the fact that he was playing that role in the first place, and while he won't end up in my top twenty, he will do very well in this project overall, and I'm more than fine with that at this juncture.

 

That said, I think there's a danger in defending roles so thoroughly. A guy who does the right thing for the matches he's in, for the crowd that he's in front of, executed very well? Sounds like Davey Richards to me. A guy who has a following who is financially successful in his role, at least on a minor level. One's based in hardnosed closing of opportunities. The other's based on frenetic opening of them without restraint. Both fit the desires of the crowd they're in front of. When it comes to that defense, where's the line other than the fact you personally prefer the role of one to the role of another?

 

What is Davey's character? Is it just "guy who has MOTYCs?" I'm asking because I legit don't know. Is Davey working for a very strict and patient booker who's intent is to build a very clear hierarchy in his promotion? If so, what is Davey's role in that hierarchy? How does he use his work to fit in that limiting hierarchy?

 

As someone who's trying to make his own way through Hansen's work, I want to return to this and offer a different example -- and one that's almost certainly going to be inflammatory, but why not have some fun with this -- for comparison:

 

How does Hansen's heavily protected role in the 80s (justified as it may be) compare to the beginning of the Undertaker's run in the WWF? There's a consonance with the Undertaker's methodical in-ring work and his character, just as Hansen's work fits his role as Baba's gaijin monster in the 80s. If we put forward Baba's very deliberate approach to Hansen in the 80s, as elliott has described, as justification for his in-ring approach at that time, does that same sort of justification work to excuse the Undertaker for his role as a supernatural monster in early 90s WWF?

 

There are certainly arguments to be made for which role resulted in better matches from an artistic/work standpoint, especially when we get into how Hansen's role evolves later on in his career, but I'm curious how (or even if) this sort of approach applies to reading matches that end up being one-sided as being "effective" nonetheless because of the role.

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