Stan Hansen

[Childs]

 

I just roll my eyes whenever people say Misawa was the "worst" performer in 6/9/95 or something like that. You have this entire match built on the narrative of Kawada finally beating Misawa and Kawada/Taue finally beating Misawa/Kobashi (both of which Misawa's ace status was crucial in), the entire finishing stretch is built on Misawa's superhuman ability to come back from devastating beatings and him breaking his ace character by showing vulnerability (like when he rolled out of the ring which may be the best spot in wrestling no one ever talks about), he sacrifices his Frog Splash so Kobashi can finally hit his Moonsault, Kobashi does all in his power to ruin the match in the end when he tries to make it about himself yet somehow HE is the best performer in it. Yeah. Ok.

I think Misawa does so many routinely awesome things that it's easy to take them for granted a bit.

 

I've been watching out especially for what he does in tag matches recently and he was just an exceptional pro wrestler. I don't quite understand the point about him not being consistent during the peak run. He lets the partner shine sometimes, but everything he does within the context of those matches is on point.

I do think Misawa had nights where he went on his version of autopilot which, as you say, was still pretty great. And he understandably took it easy during some tags and six mans. It's just that, when you see him totally engaged in every moment of a match, as he was in the '95 carnival final against Taue or the 1/20/97 TC challenge against Kobashi, you get something transcendent. So it becomes easier to nitpick him for being merely excellent. Misawa at his best was the greatest pro wrestler I've ever seen. So yes, it's his curse to be judged by that standard.

[soup23]

Kobashi

Kawada

Hansen

Jumbo

Misawa

 

That's the way I'd rank it. I've seen Misawa have too many lame singles matches. I don't know how we all zoned in on his tag performances. I've seen him have a ton of lackluster singles matches while analyzing him in this project.

 

Curious as to which ones this is besides the Hansen series. I cant recall who on the WDKW said they havent liked any Hansen vs. Misawa matches. I do think that series is disappointing besides the 5/93 match which I find great. Besides that, it is tough for me to turn to many disappointing singles matches from Misawa besides Hase, Tenryu and 6/6/97. Also, in the case of Tenryu and Hansen, those should be just as much a negative in my eyes as it is for Misawa.

[soup23]

BTW my consistency for the big guys would be:

 

Kobashi (9)

Hansen (8)

Misawa (7-8)

Jumbo (7)

Kawada (6) - I feel he is pretty inconsistent and has wider swings than Misawa. His stuff in the Jumbo/Taue tags is where he could zone out more than Misawa does in most major tags. He also has the singles stuff which I find more disappointing ( worse vs. Hase, I am not crazy about his selling in the Hashimoto match, etc)

[MoS]

Amongst the All Japan pillars, I have

1) Kawada

2) Misawa

3) Kobashi

 

The gap between 2 and 3 is much closer than the gap between 1 and 2. Kawada is one of the performers whom I find transcendent.

[JerryvonKramer]

BTW my consistency for the big guys would be:

 

Kobashi (9)

Hansen (8)

Misawa (7-8)

Jumbo (7)

Kawada (6) - I feel he is pretty inconsistent and has wider swings than Misawa. His stuff in the Jumbo/Taue tags is where he could zone out more than Misawa does in most major tags. He also has the singles stuff which I find more disappointing ( worse vs. Hase, I am not crazy about his selling in the Hashimoto match, etc)

I'd co-sign these consistency ratings, agree 100%

[Superstar Sleeze]

Now for a haiku about Stan "The Lariat" Hansen:

 

Western Lariat

Fate was sealed before the bell

A Mercy Killing

[Microstatistics]

Stan Hansen vs. Carlos Colon WWC 10/12/1986

 

 

Awesome match with a great Hansen performance. He combined his relentless attack with great stooging and desperation. I also finally saw the great Hansen selling people talk about. Colon also showed great fire and intensity. ****

 

Honestly Hansen looked a thousand times better in this setting than in the majority of 80s All Japan. Most of his 80s All Japan stuff (and some AWA stuff) left such a bad taste in my mouth that I decided to leave him off my ballot completely and didn't watch more of him. If the rest of the Colon feud is this good, it combined with his 90s stuff (which ranges from pretty good to great for me), might overcome a lot of his stuff that drives me nuts and turn me around on Stan Hansen.

[GOTNW]

I had Hansen at #31 on my ballot (which feels too high looking back as my gut instinct tells me the answer to whether I think he's better than Otsuka and Emilio Charles Jr. is an aggressive NO) and I want to elaborate on that since aside from Matt D he hasn't really been criticised much. I really love the idea of Stan Hansen. This half blind guy that just steamrolls over people, and, especially in the early 90s, will give the other guy shine but can also believably come back at any time. I can see how others would prefer him to Vader since he wouldn't go to his lengths in bumping and stooging. Hansen will beat the shit out of a guy and while appreciate that and think he can be great in some roles (especially the micromanaged All Japan 80s tags) I just don't buy him as an elite worker. I don't really find a lot of his control segments that interesting, it feels a lot like it's just start-stop-start-stop in that he will do something cool and then there will be kind of a weird pause and then he'll do something cool again. But I don't really see him as being good at connecting the dots, which is also probably why my favourite Hansen matches are vs. Terry Funk who can carry Hansen's control segments with his selling. I don't think he's as good as projecting himself when in control of the match as Hashimoto (or hell, even Kanemoto) and for insane spectacles of violence I get much more out of Futen stuff. Maybe I'll view him differently once I watch the Colon feud or his stuff in the US.

[elliott]

@Makai Club #1 said elsewhere

Quote

Stan Hansen is my working #2 despite this very thing. Compared to someone like Kobashi or Okada, who has a long list of 5 star matches for me, Hansen's individual case is how he approaches wrestling. It doesn't always lead to the greatest matches of all time but his performances are so stand out that they don't need to be. 

I was really surprised by this because if you asked me to name people who had a lot of all time great matches, Hansen is someone I think of almost immediately. The Andre match, multiple matches against Colon, multiple against Kobashi, multiple matches against Terry Funk, numerous tag matches. He also has a ton of "great" matches that aren't necessarily all time great matches but are still awesome. 

Anyway. Working #2 is awesome no matter how he got there  He's definitely challenging for my #2 as well. 

[Dav'oh]

"Hansen's individual case is how he approaches wrestling". Agreed.

From his book: "I always liked to go out and do what came to me in a split second, and then wait for my opponent to react to what I did.  I felt that was much better because it was an authentic reaction to my impromptu action."

I'll have a very difficult time including anyone from the "call it all in the back" generation (and anyone in the overlapping "never had to take bumps in a ring with as much give as a WWII bunker" generation).

[Makai Club #1]

6 hours ago, elliott said:

@Makai Club #1 said elsewhere

I was really surprised by this because if you asked me to name people who had a lot of all time great matches, Hansen is someone I think of almost immediately. The Andre match, multiple matches against Colon, multiple against Kobashi, multiple matches against Terry Funk, numerous tag matches. He also has a ton of "great" matches that aren't necessarily all time great matches but are still awesome. 

Anyway. Working #2 is awesome no matter how he got there  He's definitely challenging for my #2 as well. 

I'm just being pedantic when it comes to determining the greatest matches ever. Hansen doesn't have a lot of matches I'd put in a lot that elite, elite tier. But he's got a bunch of matches just below that. 

Also I'm slowly making my way through the Carlos Colon feud right now (slowly, but surely) so this statement could easily be outdated once I'm done.

[Matt D]

6 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

"Hansen's individual case is how he approaches wrestling". Agreed.

From his book: "I always liked to go out and do what came to me in a split second, and then wait for my opponent to react to what I did.  I felt that was much better because it was an authentic reaction to my impromptu action."

I'll have a very difficult time including anyone from the "call it all in the back" generation (and anyone in the overlapping "never had to take bumps in a ring with as much give as a WWII bunker" generation).

I have years to work this out, but it's a duel edged sword and relies way too much on his opponent figuring out what the hell to do with him. The best tool in wrestling history, but I still don't see him in my top 10.

[Cap]

Yeah, Hansen is on the short list of "most great matches" wrestlers for me. 

His approach is great for producing organic magic that feels like it couldn't be duplicated or planned... in turn it is great for producing elite matches (for my taste at least). It is also produces some uneven stuff, but uneven stuff that is rarely entertaining to me. In short, he has as high a ceiling as anyone and he also has a pretty high floor. I have read that quote from him and heard him talk about it in interviews a few times. Intuitively, I love it.  I think Matt D's point is a good one though. It is a roll of the dice. Hansen's philosophy on wrestling is more or less accepting that something could fall apart in the pursuit of something viscerally awesome. It isn't sure fire, but I Iike that it feels like he is always shooting for the best version of wrestling (in his mind and maybe mine)

He would have probably been #1 if I voted in 2016. Right now he is my working #3. This is despite me discovering how much I am in love with the entire Kobashi/Hansen rivalry (I know it isn't novel, but I'm crazy high on quite a few of the lesser hyped matches) and getting turned onto a smattering of gems I hadn't seen 5 years ago. I can imagine him landing anywhere from #1-#7 depending on how things shake out, but I'd be pretty shocked if he wasn't in real contention for the top spot on my list.

[Clayton Jones]

I think the handheld Kobashi match is every bit as good as their other matches.

[GOTNW]

I think Hansen's work primarily lies in how much stock you put into his tag work. As a tag worker, he really is in contention for the greatest to have ever done it, and just brings an unparalleled chaotic energy. As a singles worker.....eh. So-so. He's hardly the most consistent one and there's plenty of matches where a guy will just work over his arm a bit and they'll do some stuff and then Hansen will go over and I could have done without ever watching it.

[Cap]

7 minutes ago, Clayton Jones said:

I think the handheld Kobashi match is every bit as good as their other matches.

I have that as my #2 match bewteen the two and it makes me appreciate the 7/29/93 match even more.

[Boss Rock]

I can't see him falling outside my top 6. Best brawler ever and one of my favorite sellers. I'm amazed by how he knew when to walk through an opponent's offense like a believable monster and when to cower and sell like he was getting his ass handed to him. And I am firmly in the "elite match" camp with him. I also just love him as a squash match worker. I never tire of him wrecking fools.

If there's one criticism I can find, it's that I've never been a fan of the few times he went to the mat with guys like Inoki or Backlund. I want to see the Stan Hansen who stomps the shit out of prople.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not buying Hansen as an elite singles match worker. He had some great singles matches, but he wasn't a great match-up for a lot of opponents. I'd argue that the number of mismatches far outweighs the great matches. Hansen is a likeable wrestler, and my first instinct is to remember the highs like the Kobashi matches and the Colon feud, but personally I think his biggest positive is his style of brawling not his overall match output. I feel the same way about Terry Funk, incidentally. 

[elliott]

Other than Jumbo, what do you think are the big Hansen mismatches?

[Boss Rock]

I don't care for the Inoki series and there's a match in Japan with Backlund that's mostly mat work. But he and Backlund also had some really good matches in the Fed. And I've always thought the Misawa series was super underrated. The 1990, 1992, and 1993 Triple Crown matches and the 1993 Champion Carnival are all really good.

And honestly, I don't think the Jumbo matches are bad either.

[elliott]

I guess the Austin Idol matches are disappointing.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

56 minutes ago, elliott said:

Other than Jumbo, what do you think are the big Hansen mismatches?

Mismatch is perhaps the wrong choice of word, but think about the guys who he had repeat singles matches with -- guys like Misawa, Inoki, Backlund, Choshu. (I don't really care for the Tenryu or Funk matches all that much either, but they're better than his matches with the other guys I mentioned.) He had plenty of opportunities to work something great with those guys, but the best you can say is "this is the best match they had together." If he hadn't stuck around in AJPW in the 90s then his resume of singles matches would be pretty thin. I'm sure there is a litany of good Hansen singles matches dating back to Hansen vs. Destroyer, but if you want to argue top 10, top 5, good matches doesn't cut it. Pretty much everyone being nominated had good matches. 

[Childs]

I'm an obvious Hansen fan, but it strikes me as absurd to say he's lacking high-end singles matches. He had at least very good matches against Inoki, Baba, Backlund, Funk, Andre, Tenryu, Vader, Bockwinkel, Blackwell, Slaughter, Henning, Colon, Williams, Kobashi and Kawada. Some of those - Andre, Funk, Kobashi, Kawada - have received acclaim as true classics in DVDVR votes. Even his "mismatches" against Jumbo and Misawa produced some really good stuff. Your taste is your taste, and I respect few posters more than OJ, but I don't think that view jibes with the consensus from past projects in which Hansen has been a central figure. 

[elliott]

Oh we fundamentally disagree on the quality of the matches then. I think the Funk matches are all timers, the Andre match is a candidate for greatest match ever, the Colon matches, I think he had multiple great matches with Inoki, Backlund, and Misawa. 

[strobogo]

His matches with Choshu suck but I'm putting that squarely on Choshu, who seemed to be going out of his way to have shitty matches with the top level guys in 1986.