Buddy Rose

[Microstatistics]

Any recommendations for matches with Rose as a babyface?

[JerryvonKramer]

So yeah I figured out what happened. I either forgot to add Rose to the spreadsheet or somehow pasted Dustin's details over his.

 

This seems like it will be too messy to fix now, involving bumping like everyone down one, and I don't know if I can face doing that. So basically I've ended up not voting for Rose. But he should have been there.

[WingedEagle]

Ahhhhh that makes sense. Oh well. Next time! About 90 minutes to go on the pod. Hope to wrap it up this morning.

[Matt D]

Parv discovers he has a heart and my #2 and #3 suffer. Figures.

[soup23]

I meant to ask you the other night whether you were voting Rose or not when we got down to our top 7 and by process of elimination, I figured out who you had left.

[JerryvonKramer]

Who is the #3?

[Grimmas]

Stuff Buddy does in the ring I value highly. My dream match was Buddy/Steamer. He'll make my top 10-20 easy how much more not sure.

That 7-20 slots fill up really quickly. I have about 30-40 guys I want in that 7-20 range.

[Badlittlekitten]

Top ten guy. Being the greatest stooge in history would have been enough but his ability, agility and versatility are just a few things that give him tip top eligibility. He stirs a crowd like no other, the "calm down, calm down!" hand gestures are foolproof and I wonder why nobody has adopted it. He's a master. Bock's the 'Thinking man's wrestler', Buddy's the 'Thinking man's wrestler that gives fun and smiles before kicking you in the teeth'.

[Matt D]

I'm not sure I should write more about Buddy at this stage.

 

But:

 

1.) We have week to week long (15+) match studio footage in front of the same crowd against different opponents in different situations for over a year of his prime. That feels extremely rare to me. It's something I wish we had for every candidate. Footage is the single most important thing with this project, I think, and it's out there for anyone to see right now. That's amazing. How awesome would it be to have that for 1979 Flair or Funk or Hansen or whoever? Even with Lawler, we end up with bits and pieces with a lot of missing footage.

2.) In that footage, it's astounding how well he balances functional needs and being wildly entertaining. I'm going to put my 1979 Buddy piece at the end that talks about those different roles, but he's so dynamic and entertaining and is able to balance vulnerability with the potential to be dangerous and competent better than anyone in wrestling history.

 

I'm understating it. Buddy HAS great matches, but watching him week to week is where the genius really can be found, and I can't convince you of this and frankly, you don't have time to do it now. A Portland set would and will help because you'll see the greatness, but the absolute brilliance is in how he was a territorial ace, endlessly creative and innovative, focused with his eye on the big picture at every point, and still hitting all of the little things with insane athleticism and one of the most earnest and memorable characters ever. He's the only person of his era that worked for the sake of history. He was recording the show every night in 1979 because he wanted to keep it forever and it shows. I can't use words to explain it. You have to see it.

 

 

 

Now that I've finished the available matches for 1979, i wanted to double back and talk about Buddy's year before moving on. I've gone over this before, but, to me, to really judge and analyze and understand a wrestler, you have to look at an entire body of work. You learn something different in a five minute squash than you do in a sixty minute broadway. You learn something different in a tag match than a singles. You learn something different seeing the wrestler against a smaller opponent than a larger. You learn something different in a gimmicked blood match than a more straightforward title matches.

The range of output we have from Buddy Rose in 79 is amazing. He has all those things and more. He has 2/3 falls matches, tag matches with two main partners of wildly varying experience and style, six man tags, squashes vs JTTS, blood feuds, gimmick matches, hair matches, and a ton of promos to go along with them. It's staggering the variation in the twenty-five or so matches I saw and wrote about. Even more staggering is that these are just the Saturday shows. So many of his actual blow-off matches were in Portland on Tuesday and as far as I'm aware we don't have those.

Portland television is a lot like Memphis as went through the same loop every week as well as having frequent Tuesday night arena shows. They weren't every week but were often three times a month when things were hot, which they were in 79. Also, like Memphis, they had to utilize a lot of the same talent to fill the same buildings every week. The big difference is that the Portland Saturday show was also in the main (promoter-owned) arena, and they make the claim that the sponsors demanded high-level matches, which may be kayfabed and may be not, but it means that there were lengthy, high-end matches, quite often with real finishes every week. The other big difference, of course was one of style: Portland had a ton of 2/3 fall matches. I love Memphis TV but you didn't often get long meaningful matches on it. That was for the Monday night MSC shows.

People judge wrestlers and matches differently. One thing that is very important to me is to try to figure out what a wrestler is trying to accomplish or achieve in a match and to see if they manage it or not, and how they do so. Buddy, in my opinion, had to accomplish two major things. 1) First and foremost he had to draw people to the Tuesday show and the weekly loop of shows. Whatever happened on Saturday had to incite the fans to spend their money on Tuesday (when applicable) and throughout the rest of the week. Since Owen owned the arena, being able to promote as many well-drawing Tuesday shows as possible was a huge deal moneywise. 2) It was also important people both attended and tuned into the Saturday night show, so while leaving the fans wanting more was important, giving them something substantial, their money and time's worth, was also essential. Moreover, he had to manage this while keeping things fresh and interesting despite the fact they were building to weekly live shows in front of the same audience and all of this had to be done with what I understand to be one of the least star-studded rosters in all the territories. Portland was considered a starting point and did not draw in most of the biggest names on a regular basis.

On top of that, the 2/3 falls matches were something of a duel-edged sword. they allowed for all sorts of different structural experimentation and storytelling possibilities and ensured that the matches would be meatier and longer than in other territories on a weekly basis, but they also forced Buddy and friends to come up with an extra two finishes a night, basically, maybe even more considering that they were running in front of the same crowd twice a week most weeks. It meant pulling out every trick in the book and inventing a number more on top of that. Combined with the fact they really wanted to draw people in for the Saturday night show, they couldn't run the constant-match ending brawling breakdowns that were such a staple of Memphis TV.

I'll admit that I'm judging what I've seen from concept and performance levels alone. I don't have attendance or rating figures before me. A lot of what I'm judging on is whether I thought something was well done or if it SHOULD have worked. I think there's every sign that it did work. The Portland show was absurdly highly rated and, dealing with one of its biggest challenges in years in 79, being forced to move to late night, still stayed highly rated. I think attendance was good. I'm going to focus on the in-ring though.

In short, I think Buddy Rose had an amazing 1979, that he wrestled in numerous different situations, almost all successfully, that he made himself look credible as a heel ace while still showing a ton of ass and making his opponents, big and small, star and undercard guy look exactly as good as they needed to look. He had incredible timing, not just in executing the moves or exchanges in his matches but in knowing when to stall and when to go and knowing when to sell and when to take, and most of all, he was able to give fans more than their money's worth while still making them want more. Very few wrestlers get put in a position where they have so difficult a role to play but also have the time and the means to prove themselves in it. Buddy was in the position and he succeeded magnificently.

It's me writing this, so we're going to lead with structure. He didn't wrestle the same match twice in the ones we have. More than that, he barely, if at all, wrestled the same segment of a match twice. The two-three falls are all broken up by fall on youtube. and the times for the falls in various matches are wildly different. More importantly, just about everything is really logical and well-set up. He often uses the 2/3 falls medium to set up something in fall #1 that gets paid off in fall #3 either in a transition or in a finish, which makes a lot of his matches almost poetic in their storytelling. Most of his offensive flurries are body-part related and it's not always the same body part either, even if most often he works over the back, logically, to set up his finisher.

I think the most impressive thing Buddy does, past the sheer amount of logical variation, is his ability to be a chickenshit heel that gives a huge amount while still being completely and utterly credible as an ace. At the beginning of the year and really throughout, he was still able to live off of his crippler gimmick. He could hone in on a body part and within three or four minutes believably take a pin in a fall. It was believable no matter who he was facing, jobber Jim Gagne or former WWF champion, Stan Stasiak. At the same time, he could spend a whole fall running from the Heart Punch or trying to avoid being in the ring at the same time as Roddy Piper in a tag match. He could take a powder after getting punched in the face or do one of his elaborate matwork/holds openings where he kept getting shown up by the babyface no matter what level of escalation he tried. He could do any of this stuff and he did, but at a moment's notice he'd be able to underhandedly or even legitimately take over and the fans would buy it completely. There aren't many guys in the history of wrestling that could manage that so believably and so well, and they're the guys who often come up when discussing the GOAT.

There's such a community feel to Portland whether it's plugging referee Sandy Barr's flea market or pointing out a local newscaster's brother in the crowd. When the time change happened, these people went home and watched the show again so that they could see themselves on TV. It was that sort of community. They knew Buddy and Buddy knew them. He was great at knowing when to stop the action to acknowledge them, when to jaw with Barr for a while or let Barr get one over on him by reversing a hair pull or to use Dutch Savage or Down Owen in their role as management as a prop, even in the middle of a match.. He knew when to argue with the ever-present granny in the front row. He knew when to swarm an opponent from the outside in a tag match. He knew when to beg off. He knew when to take a powder and he knew when to hide in the ropes. He knew when to bring in humor and to make himself look bufoonish and when to bring the intensity and make the crowd yell for his blood. He just had a great sense of what the people would react to and when to pull it out of his arsenal and he varied it. You wouldn't often see him stall in the same way for the same reason two matches in a row.

All that stalling and jawing and what not didn't mean he couldn't go. He has great opening stretches in his matches, able to keep up with anyone they brought in. He has that really entertaining shtick where he gets outwrestled which shined brightest against guys who could really work holds like Johnny Eagles, but that he was able to utilize to make greener guys look a lot more interesting too. He has not just varied and believable offense but a lot of innovative offense too. I know that's not a high selling point in most situations but I think when you're in front of the same crowd so much it is important. He and Wiskowski had a crippling second rope kneedrop/backbreaker combo that was years before its time. I asked Dave Meltzer about it in an e-mail and he said he couldn't remember anyone doing that sort of thing before then. The Billy Robinson backbreaker is a great finisher for not just the time but any time. More than that, he has these finishing segments, especially in big matches where there are not just finisher teases that are again ahead of their time, but where he even occasionally tries to steal his opponents finisher as a FU, almost always leading to his comeuppance.

Most of all, he was able to deliver on what he had to do. He would work elements into his matches that foreshadowed or forced the upcoming gimmick blowoff, but he would use these elements in logical ways that were absolutely organic parts of the action. Yes, it was him keeping away from the person he'd be wrestling in a tag match and teasing the crowd with it or getting over an opponent's finisher in a tag match as something that could finally be the thing to vanquish him in a singles match. It was more than that, though. He would give the fans just as much as they needed to get riled, would give the babyface just as much as he needed to really seem believable as an opponent, would attack in the right sort of underhanded manner to inflame the passions of both for the match to come. Some of it was absolutely the booking, but that Buddy was able to work these forward-looking stories into his matches through his work itself was really the sign of being a master of his craft.

So just how good was Buddy in 1979? He was good enough that, based on what we have from TV, I can't think of a wrestler that had a more complete year in the role of a television ace. Some of that is the selection of what we have and the opportunities he was given, but when you take a look at what we DON'T have: the big blowoff matches where he would be given even more of an opportunity to shine, it makes it all the more astounding the sheer talent, expertise and pro wrestling quality we can see in him in what we do.

[Childs]

I agree with this wholeheartedly: Buddy has to be watched week to week for the deepest appreciation to set in.

 

It's awesome that we have the footage to do that, but it's also a lot to ask. I doubt I would have done it if I wasn't reviewing stuff for the '80s set.

[KB8]

I haven't watched him week to week, and there's still a fair chunk of Portland stuff I'm yet to see from '81-'83, but even as it stands he's a top 10 guy for me. I can't really say anything Matt hasn't already, but yeah, he was tremendous.

[Grimmas]

Real compelling arguments by Elliot and Dylan. I have started with the Rose set and damn he was great. There is a huge battle in the 7-26 range. At this second Rose is winning that battle.

[Dylan Waco]

Parv forgetting to include him means he will get the benefit of every doubt for me. I was going to have him very high anyhow, but yea

[southofheavy]

I think y'all just convinced me to pick up that there Buddy Rose set.

 

Or should I wait for the Portland set?

[elliott]

You should get both. The Rose set is phenomenal but there's some really great Portland Rose that isn't on that that I suspect will be on the 80s set. Plus there will be all the non-Rose stuff.

 

Portland set will fucking rule.

[Childs]

The answer is always "and."

[JerryvonKramer]

My solution to this little administrative error is probably going to be just to dump Mil Mascaras, move Garvin there and slot in Rose where he should have been.

 

I think Mil's BIGLAV score was too high in retrospect and is the person I'm altogether least happy with being on my list.

[goodhelmet]

Dumping Mil Mascaras for Buddy Rose isn't that offensive. Buddy deserves to be on more lists.

[Quentin]

Another big riser for me. Didn’t see any Buddy before we turned ballots in and he was the first person I dug in to after and I was blown away. At his best, one of like four people where I thought they were the best I’ve ever seen at their peak. Going from not being on my list last time and now being one of the only locks for “territory guys” to make my list is about as ringing an endorsement I can give.

[Shrike02]

I've watched a fair amount of Portland footage in the last while and Rose is tremendous. I need to rewatch his famous AWA feud with The Rockers.

I can see him as a #1 contender and he's in my top 20 on my current list.

[elliott]

I hope somebody pulls the trigger and puts him at #1. He's a perfect pro-wrestler

[elliott]

I voted Buddy Rose 14th in 2016. Nailed it. 

[Tetsujin]

Top 10 contender to me. He's part of that select club with Hokuto, Joe, Kobashi, Eddie or Misawa, the club of guys who at their very best, look like the best ever. What I admire the most about Rose is that, yeah obviously you have the Martel and Piper matches, you have the Rockers matches (it was obvious Shawn Michaels was a prodigy), but also most of his greatest matches are against opponents you couldn't care less. But, against Buddy Rose, everyone could have the best match of his career. He's also capable of doing it while working 2/3 Falls matches, a gimmick that I usually don't like that much, but Rose mastered the style.

He's also a tremendous tag worker, comedy wrestler, vicious heel, surprisingly good babyface, amazing at the mat, all time seller and bumper... When you are at that level for most of the 80s and the late-70s, you clearly are one of the greatest wrestlers ever.

Whatever he did in the 90s is still a blind spot for me, so depending on how good that stuff is he can be even higher. But right now, I don't think he'll be out of my top 15.

[KB8]

I had Buddy at number 10 in 2016 and there's a decent chance he lands there again in 2026. There have been three extensive cases made for Buddy in this thread - or at least three extensions of the same case made brilliantly - so I don't really have anything else to add about him as a candidate that wouldn't just be retreading ground. The point about his true greatness coming through best by watching him week to week is right on the money, but taking that sort of deep dive into a wrestler isn't something everyone will want or even be able to do. The good thing at least is that he has the matches that you can throw on whenever and those makes a pretty fucking decent case for him anyway. One of the most versatile wrestlers ever and one of those "I'll watch them in any setting" folks. Like, I watched a WWF TV match the other week where he was against SD Jones. It was a five minute studio match and he took two absolutely wild bumps, one of them being the best upside down corner bump I've ever seen (where he flew all the way out the ring and landed on the concrete). He had no reason to bump like that for SD Jones in a five minute studio match. In Portland I don't think I've seen a Buddy match that isn't worth watching and it doesn't matter if he was wrestling Roddy Piper or Rick Martel or Cocoa Samoa. The coolest thing is I still haven't seen a decent chunk of his Portland stuff. I guess he has a relatively short run as an all-timer, but to me there's enough there to go on and I think there's a good case for him being the best wrestler in the world during at least three of the years we have footage of. 

 

BUDDY ROSE YOU SHOULD WATCH:

v Lonnie Mayne (Portland, 10/1/77)

w/Ed Wiskowski, Roddy Piper & Killer Brooks v Adrian Adonis, Ron Starr, George Wells & Hector Guerrero (Portland, 4/7/79)

v Hector Guerrero (Portland, 4/14/79)

v Roddy Piper (Portland, 5/12/79)

v Johnny Eagles (Portland, 5/26/79)

v Killer Brooks (Portland, 6/2/79)

v Adrian Adonis (Portland, 8/31/79)

w/The Sheepherders v Sam Oliver Bass, Roddy Piper & Red Bastien (Portland, 10/27/79)

v Rick Martel (Portland, 4/26/80)

v Rick Martel (Portland, 5/10/80)

w/Ed Wiskowski v Rick Martel & Roddy Piper (Portland, 8/2/80)

v Jay Youngblood (Portland, 1/3/81)

w/Rip Oliver v Roddy Piper & Steven Regal (Portland, 6/20/81)

v Bob Backlund (WWF, 8/30/82)

v Pedro Morales (WWF, 11/22/82)

v Bob Backlund (WWF, 11/25/82)

v Chris Adams (Portland, 2/26/83)

w/Roddy Piper & Hack Sawyer v Ed Wiskowski, The Assassin & Rip Oliver (Portland, 3/17/84)

w/Doug Somers v Leon White & Jesse Hernandez (AWA, 5/1/86)

w/Doug Somers & Alexis Smirnoff v Midnight Rockers & Curt Hennig (AWA, 6/28/86)

w/Doug Somers v Midnight Rockers (AWA, 8/30/86)

v Marty Jannetty (AWA, 10/18/86)

w/Doug Somers & Sherri Martel v Midnight Rockers & Despina Montegues (AWA, 11/27/86)

w/Doug Somers v Midnight Rockers (AWA, 12/25/86)

w/Doug Somers v Midnight Rockers (AWA, 1/17/87)

[Childs]

I could see Buddy taking a bit of a tumble in the overall ranking; he had a lot of momentum going into 2016 with people giving fresh looks to the Portland and AWA footage. I hope that's not the case, because he was magnificent. He might be a one of one (I guess Lawler is his chief rival) in terms of keeping territorial TV entertaining week after week.