Riki Choshu

[JerryvonKramer]

So he didn't go to prison?

[Childs]

Don't know the exact details of the prison thing, but if you want to see the match, it's in the extras on the All-Japan set.

[PeteF3]

Saito only worked one tour in All-Japan before going off to prison. I don't know what Patera is on about, but regardless of what happened at that Wisconsin McDonald's Saito did indeed have to serve time.

 

It was intended for Choshu to feud with Tenryu to elevate Tenryu while Saito feuded with Jumbo. That, not the fact that he "couldn't keep up" with Choshu's style as Meltzer at least at one time reported, is why Jumbo was sort of left out in the cold for the most part during that feud.

[JerryvonKramer]

Kind of interesting actually that Saito was considered that level of star in Japan, I don't tend to think of him as a top top guy.

[Childs]

He was always the respected veteran in Choshu's crew. If you hit the New Japan set, you'll get a much better sense of Saito.

[PeteF3]

He also had more experience than Choshu. Age isn't quite a be-all and end-all but I think it's a much bigger deal there than, say, the West. I think in most of their 6-mans, Saito was intro'd after Choshu, and Japanese intros are a pretty strictly tiered (offense at being introduced before Fujinami in a tag was the angle that led to Choshu splitting off and forming his own Army, in fact.)

[WingedEagle]

Is there footage of that angle and the split?

[Childs]

Yes.

[DR Ackermann]

Childs, you were one of the guys who worked on the 80s NJPW & AJPW projects, right?

[Childs]

Yep.

[goodhelmet]

Child's has seen more 1980S JAPAN than anyone out there.

[DR Ackermann]

That's what I thought. Since you've seen the best, worst and everything in between, do you think Choshu was better in tags than singles? I don't recall him being in a whole lot of singles on the All Japan set and I've seen some stuff here and there that was disappointing. At the same time I liked the Killer Khan match more than anything else he was in that I've seen from All Japan.

 

Personally what I like most about Choshu is exemplified in the 4.3.83 Fujinami match. The struggle, intensity & hatred. You get the intensity & hatred in the tag matches but the struggle isn't there as much.

[Childs]

The Fujinami singles series in '83 was the best thing he did all decade. I'd probably put the tag series in All-Japan against Jumbo and Tenryu right behind that. He wasn't clearly better at one or the other. What impressed me about him as a tag wrestler is that he pulled off strong matches paired with almost every member of his crew, from Saito to Yatsu to Hamaguchi to Khan. And he was the constant, a guy who could generate heat from the apron and then pop in for tremendous bursts of action. Hell, he had a great tag match paired with Iizuka in '89. I loved the spot in that one where he kicked his own partner to fire him up.

 

Choshu was weaker in matches that went too long, because he really didn't have a deep bag of shit to do. But give him 20 minutes and a big stage and he'd knock it out of the park in tags, singles and multi-mans.

[JerryvonKramer]

Childs, would you agree that his timing on that Scorpion Deathlock wasn't always the best? I remember his Scorpion in general being a bugbear in the singles matches.

[Childs]

Yeah, that's fair. He used it to good effect at times but not always. It never bothered me immensely. I know some people also feel he went to the head scissors too readily.

[dawho5]

Here's the thing for me on Choshu. I really, really, REALLY dislike how he used the sharpshooter (sasorigatame, whatever) so often, relied on restholds to get through large parts of matches and tended to use the backdrop exclusively as a transition. However, he somehow managed to keep doing all of that and make it seem important within the match. How he did that I'll never know. There are a few unquestionable things he had going for him. His charisma was off the charts and he had great fire, both of which he used to incredible effect. His look and his persona fit everything else he did. When he was in matches where he could just hit bursts of big offense he was fucking amazing. His execution was phenomenal as well, everything looked impactful. Ultimately I actually preferred Yatsu in that tag team for having more variety, selling and bumping far better and setting up his big spots well.

[El-P]

The thing is, people got used to see Bret Hart and Sting use the scorpiondeathlock as a instant finisher, usually only at the very end of the match. There was not much in term of teases (although Bret would do it more in big matches), and the hold was sold as instant death in 95% of the case. So it's kinda hard to adjust to the way Choshu used it in retrospect, but it made a lot of sense. First, that hold was not instant death back then. You could stay in it for a while. It could be the finisher, but not necessarily (and really, not that often because big names would not lose clean in the 80's, and especially not by submissions). Choshu also made it a struggle all the time, usually by having to fight to roll the opponent on his stomach, and usually putting pression on the legs/ankle/knee during the first phase. And then, Choshu used the sasorigatame kinda like Jake would with the DDT in term of teases, it was fitting his sudden offensive style, going for it quickly and as much as he could, at key points during the match. So yeah, very different use than Bret and Sting did later. Once you get used to it, there's really nothing wrong about it at all.

[Benbeeach]

Sort of like the difference in the way a clothesline is used in the west vs. a lariat in the east

[dawho5]

The way he uses it is less my issue than how often. If he did it maybe two or three times in a given match, sure. But he'd go five or six because he had such a limited offense. Again, the fact that he made that work is amazing to me and not a complete negative.

[El-P]

As I'm going through Ishin Gundan vs NJ, Ishin Gundan vs Jumbo's army & UWF vs NJ, it just occured to me that the two workers who basically revolutionized pro-wrestling in the 80's in Japan (Choshu & Maeda) were actually Korean. I wonder if that has been discussed before and if that played a role in how they were perceived by the audience, including the fact they played the role of rebellious people turning against the establishment.

[GOTNW]

I have him top 15 currently, I thought he was great since I first watched a match of his but he's someone who really benefits from constantly exceeding my expectations and always impressing regardless of the environment he's in, what I value most in wrestling is the kind of energetic performance charisma Choshu abounds with, I always love the idea of a Choshu match and the viewing experience delivers every time, he also gets a lot of bonus points for his wrestling philosophy which is what my taste has been moving towards for quite some time.

[JerryvonKramer]

I've been finding it a lot harder to get into Choshu vs. Fujinami than I did to get into Choshu in AJPW.

 

Trying to figure out why. I just watched 4/21/83 but I'm going to watch it a second time before finishing review and posting.

[Childs]

Because it's more mat-based? That's often not to your taste.

[JerryvonKramer]

Pretty much

[WingedEagle]

I had he exact same problem with their series. Went in expecting a precursor to the Choshu tags in AJ and that's simply not what was happening.