Matt D Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Also Matt, don't forget the massive differences in the head shaving. The first one is Dump forcibly shaving Chigusa's head while Chigusa's friends can do nothing. But when Dump loses, she leaves, comes back of her own volition and has her friends shave her head. It's like some kind of twisted "even when you in, you lose" kind of deal. Which just adds to the shitty feeling of "this is not a triumph." This almost feels like the sort of payoff that should kill a territory to me. The best moment was when Chigusa hugged the ref at the very end though. That was heartwarming. The nebbish scholarly bullied scribe was able to find his courage and help the heroine stand up to the bully and together they vanquished her, at least for today, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 If have a feel for serialised lucha, please explain 1993 CMLL to me, Matt! Chigusa had actually been moving away from the Dump stuff for some time prior to this match and concentrating more on being a serious wrestler and not so much of an idol. Even Dump began to change after the bout. She slimmed down and they stretched out her forced retirement to milk a bit more cash out of her. As she gets closer to retirement she becomes more of a fan favourite out of sentimentality. The '85 bout was the peak of the feud and then the '86 bout was the blow off, which may feel like more of a coda judging by your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 You point me to a bunch of 1993 CMLL and I'll do my best. How complete is our footage? Who's even still in CMLL in 1993? I think that might be legally dismissable as an exception since they had just bled out with the talent and front office loss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Also Matt, don't forget the massive differences in the head shaving. The first one is Dump forcibly shaving Chigusa's head while Chigusa's friends can do nothing. But when Dump loses, she leaves, comes back of her own volition and has her friends shave her head. It's like some kind of twisted "even when you in, you lose" kind of deal. Which just adds to the shitty feeling of "this is not a triumph." This almost feels like the sort of payoff that should kill a territory to me. The best moment was when Chigusa hugged the ref at the very end though. That was heartwarming. The nebbish scholarly bullied scribe was able to find his courage and help the heroine stand up to the bully and together they vanquished her, at least for today, etc. The only way you can kill a territory of schoolgirls is if something more interesting comes along. It was a fad not so much a territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 You point me to a bunch of 1993 CMLL and I'll do my best. How complete is our footage? Who's even still in CMLL in 1993? I think that might be legally dismissable as an exception since they had just bled out with the talent and front office loss? It's not really a footage issue with CMLL. The problem is that the booking doesn't follow traditional American patterns. It's difficult to understand why Felino and Casas are always squabbling without guessing. If CMLL had run it like Bret/Owen it would be easy to understand but moments that would lead to one wrestler turning on another in the States are blown off and they're back to tagging the next week. I would actually go so far as to say that everything story related in lucha is by and large disappointing aside from hot trios matches in the lead-up to a singles match and a nice narrative structure in said singles match. Rudos in fighting, mask ripping, baby face or heel turns, all pretty disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 You're talking medium-long term storytelling, not within a single match itself, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 5, 2014 Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 Both, but generally the former. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted October 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2014 For those wondering, I will get into the 1990s a lot in this thread, but I just want to give people more of a chance to work through the 80s first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted October 6, 2014 Report Share Posted October 6, 2014 Jaguar vs. Lioness was not to my tastes. The first 2/3 of the match was Yokota working over Lioness' leg and Lioness returning the favor, which was really good even without a lot of long-term selling. Then the finish was a bunch of big nearfalls with the legwork completely forgotten. The crowd loved it and a lot of the stuff thrown out was pretty amazing for 1985, but it had nothing to do with the 16 or so minutes that led up to it. Devil vs. Chigusa was great. Gritty throughout, everything was earned. By the end, both were dead on their feet trying to survive as much as put the other away. Finish was perfect for the way the match was worked. Amazing stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Matt, I expounded on the problems of lucha booking and storytelling to a greater degree in my latest entry -- http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/blog/8/entry-434-vintage-negro-casas-of-the-day-10/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawho5 Posted October 7, 2014 Report Share Posted October 7, 2014 Crush Girls vs. JBA was really good. Starting to think the opening limbwork is very often treated this way in joshi matches, so it's just something I'm going to have to accept. One thing keeping it from being filler here is the execution. Finishing run is really well-executed. All four get some big nearfalls, they work a lot in between the falls with big moves strung together to set up the real and false finishes (2/3 falls). Yokota vs. Galactica was great as well. Galactica as the heel is really, really great. Attack during the intros, followed by Yokota mask ripping. Galactica goes to work on an arm and starts biting the fingers! (!!!) Yokota tries working a leg for a little bit but ends up having her arm destroyed. There's a cut above the bicep and Galactica finds interesting ways to work it. Yokota throws some bombs, but it may be too little too late. One thing I am noticing about Yokota is that she's very bomb-oriented and that isn't something I care for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efrim Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 Just starting up with this thread and already really enjoying it. Watching the first match now, but I've scanned the pages ahead for commentary. I'll be very interested in any insight/matches you can bring to the table that demonstrate Nakano's transition from important flunky to top star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Redman Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 So, I'm someone who would say that I don't really "get" joshi. I am a big fan of women's wrestling, and I've tried watching joshi matches so many times, but most of them do very little for me. The matches that I've watched up to this point I can separate into two broad categories: a. Over the top monster heels with gimmicks, interference, no rule enforcement and the like (e.g. Dump/Chiggy) b. Fast-paced, go-go-go athletic exhibitions (e.g. JBAs, Toyota) And neither of those types of matches do much for me. I can see and even accept the quirks of both styles, and get what they're going for and even say that it's well worked, but it just doesn't touch me in a visceral way. I don't enjoy the experience of watching the matches. I just...don't get it. Then last night I watched Hokuto vs Kandori. And then I got it. That kind of match was so much more...recognisable to me, I guess. The structure, the pace, the story, they were all something I could really get into and enjoy. So I guess the point of this post is for me to ask, can someone who knows more than me recommend more joshi that looks like Hokuto/Kandori? I realise I sort of started at the top because it's one of the highest rated matches out there, but I don't need them to be as good as this one necessarily, just worked in the same style. Is this how Hokuto generally worked? Kandori? What is there to check out from "this" kind of joshi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 This thread my be of some help. http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/15446-joshi-for-people-who-dont-like-joshi/?hl=%2Bjoshi+%2Bfor+%2Bpeople Akira Hokuto fucking rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 I would also add that the first year and a half or so of ARSION is probably good for a change of pace. Most of the matches are mat-based and don't go unnecessarily long. Also, version 1 of JWP (1986-1992) is something I've really grown to love that is kind of its own animal. My favorites are The Scorpion, Devil Masami, Mayumi Ozaki, Miss A (later Dynamite Kansai) and Shinobu Kandori. In response to your specific question, check out Aja Kong vs Megumi Kudo from 12/6/93. Also check out the Hokuto-Kandori rematch on the same show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 The Devil vs. Chigusa match mentioned earlier in the thread should be something you check out. Some recent stuff that non-stereotypical Joshi: Azumi Hyuga's matches vs. Kaori Yoneyama (12/9/07) and Kayoko Haruyama (4/29/08), both Kana vs Meiko Satomura from Kana Pro (2/13/11 and 2/25/14), Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted August 1, 2015 Report Share Posted August 1, 2015 So I found what I could of highly pimped stuff (including the entire Dream Rush) and put them into a youtube playlist called a Joshi Primer. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLwyfqDYR6j9lfMMg9Am9kzzBNi2bhWSFr I'm sure I missed a lot, but this should get people started on highly acclaimed matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted August 2, 2015 Report Share Posted August 2, 2015 Thanks Grimmas, subscribed. (Too bad Loss's original links are almost all taken down; curse you, SkyTV!) Since this is damn near Chiggy/Dump: The Thread, I thought I might as well post the following. Here's a match between them from two years prior to the first hair match. Chigusa looks twelve years old; and Matsumoto hadn't adopted her street-punk gimmick yet, she's just a generic chubby heel chick. It's interesting to see them so different from how we usually envision them, especially Nagayo who really doesn't look like she was ready for prime time with some of her cringe-inducing offense. Not-yet-Dump was already pretty awesome, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDv0qcT1qoE And here, much more recently, Chigusa and Dump renewed their rivalry in an exploding barbed wire match. Because, fuck it, why not? With Chiggy tag-teaming with Onita, because of course Onita's gonna be involved in every explosion match ever. It's pretty much the same "stall stall stall KABOOM" that you always get from this gimmick; but still, it's a "is this a dream?" kind of surreal amusement to see these two women doing this a full thirty years after their initial feud. It's also got a laughable finish, I'd love for anyone to be able to explain what the hell the logic is supposed to be with how the pinfall works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU1tCmjAYcc Loss, if you ever get around to restarting those other writeups you meant to do in here, I'd love to read them. This has been one of the better-written threads on a board which doesn't exactly lack for good analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Steven, I'd add the other 8/22/85 match between Chig and Devil on that list, too. The main was more dynamic, but Chig and Devil showed just how advanced the women were by incorporating all the other major styles at the time into one match. Absolutely sensational stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 I tried to find that, but had trouble on youtube. Yes, everybody should watch it for sure. I'm going through a more detailed watch for myself and I am very high on the stuff. That Galactica-Jaguar match is so great. I have never seen a small cut on the leg being worked like that before. The point where Galactica enters the ring covered and blood and both are having trouble standing due to exhaustion is pro-wrestling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timbo Slice Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Not on YouTube, but here's the DailyMotion video: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2hid3c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlittlekitten Posted August 3, 2015 Report Share Posted August 3, 2015 Fuck, I'm getting goosebumps just by watching the entrance to the above match. I've seen all the footage before but I still find it stunning. In terms of raw emotional connection has their ever been a wrestler as over as Chigusa Nagayo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted August 4, 2015 Report Share Posted August 4, 2015 That Galactica-Jaguar match is so great. I have never seen a small cut on the leg being worked like that before. The point where Galactica enters the ring covered and blood and both are having trouble standing due to exhaustion is pro-wrestling! Just so there's no confusion, this is there 9/17/84 match not the one listed earlier. It's also off of TV, not Classics, so there's about a 1/4 of the match clipped. I actually like this one the most out of their matchups. A great mix of the typical fast paced joshi work and some crazy brawling. These two just really click together, I'd say that Galactica was Jaguar's best opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clayton Jones Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 As someone who has always struggled to appreciate Joshi unless it was Kong or Satomura up until just recently, I stumbled onto this post tonight and found it extremely insightful. I think a lot of Japanese wrestling fans probably avoided Joshi for the longest time for similar reasons I did- the fans seemed like obsessive creeps and you wanted nothing to do with anything they liked. But as I get older and branch out more I find myself wanting to understand the super praised Joshi eras, and stuff like this really helps provide the framework to better digest it. Loss if you ever want to pick up where you left off a year ago I'd be happy to read more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peachchaos Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I'm looking for 1982 recommendations for Joshi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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