Daniel Bryan

[Boss Rock]

I think if anything it's a "this guy was already really good in 2002".

Also, when it comes to Miz and Bray Wyatt, the Royal Rumble 2014 and Summerslam 2018 matches were great. And while the Fiend strap match wasn't really good, it certainly was better than it had any right to be and that's because Bryan busted his ass.

[NotJayTabb]

Getting anything out of the non-selling Fiend in a strap match was remarkable. It felt like they were putting the biggest possible obstacles in the way of him having a good match there

[Grimmas]

6 hours ago, Reel said:

The Kofi match. for me, is the crowning achievement of his career. He convinced people that they had wanted Kofi to be world champ for years and then it culminated in a great match on Wrestlemania. 

People did want Kofi as a star forever. Look at the Orton match to see that.

[EnviousStupid]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:27 AM, Grimmas said:

People did want Kofi as a star forever. Look at the Orton match to see that.

There's also the Gauntlet match on Smackdown that had Kofi last 40+ minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5zrZpDNML4

Bryan is great here and plays his role as well as you'd hope, but he isn't the main reason why Kofi rode another wave of momentum going into Wrestlemania that year

[Chess Knight]

Man I'm gonna say it, the BCC have been disappointing for me. It's not that I don't like them or think their output has underwhelmed, it's that by all account of his AEW work so far, I think Bryan Danielson is probably either the best or second best wrestler on this planet still and doesn't really get to showcase it in a way that his singles matches did. I'm not even strictly talking about the "big ones" he had last year (thought that's exhibit A); that match with Lee Moriarty in February was pretty awesome to me purely because of Danielson. Moriarty looked ready to turn the match into generic back and forth indy trash any moment but Danielson just kept cutting him off, which resulted in the actual back and forth bit (the last couple minutes) feeling actually hard earned. I've truthfully never been the most MASSIVE Danielson fan, and making a list I'd maybe be a low voter (though that's probably still top 20), but stuff like that really bolsters the case to me - where he works match-specific to his opponent, and even seasoned wrestling watchers don't immediately grab at how exactly he's putting the guy over....by kicking their ass. I've before never liked him as much as I did in late 2021/early 2022. 

[Mattsdmf]

I think it's safe for me to say, he's going to be my #1.  It was between him and Terry Funk and the more I thought about it, Danielson seems to be a natural fit.  He's had a lengthy run and has the advantage of his entire career to this point is on tape.  Like Funk, I think he can do it all.  He's shown that he's a wrestling machine and can do technical stuff all day long, but he can also be a firey babyface, a sadistic and cocky heel, a brawler, a great hot tag, the bully and the underdog.  He was so good early on and only got better.  I also think his WWE run also not just helped his case but also cemented it.  I know for myself, I wasn't sure how he would do in the WWE as everyone doubted him when the news broke that he had signed with them.  But not only did he end up fitting in, he excelled in that environment.  I was gonna write up a very long post (which I probably will in the near future) about Danielson, but I do think this YouTube video is a great essay on him:

 

[Troyvang]

Currently, about a year into my project here, I have him as my #4. There is a super solid chance that he gets higher and I find it hard to believe that he will sink below four or five. I have a lot left to watch of him and am excited for what the next four years bring.

[fxnj]

I was watching the early part of the MJF iron man, the part where they run through a series of cooperative looking go-behind wrist locks and do a crappy Indieriffic Standoff headlock exchange that has the commentators marking out, and I think it finally clicked with me why I don't see him as a top 10 guy and am even kind of reluctant on him as a top 100 guy despite his volume of good-to-really-good stuff being undeniable. I'd long attributed it that, unlike his more innovative contemporaries like Low Ki, AJ Styles, and Necro Butcher, his matches didn't really have much of what I'd call his personal stamp. He was the ultimate cosplay wrestler, his moveset a massive hodgepodge of stuff from WoS/shoot-style/lucha/AJPW heavies/NJPW juniors, but when watching his stuff my mind tended to wander more towards how much better his stuff was done by the guys he was imitating rather than staying focused on his personal contribution. That is, unless we count his contribution in popularizing cosplay wrestling itself or annoying post-modern shit like the "I have till 5" thing.

Still, that's only part of the issue. The actual root of it all goes down to his presentation as some sort of genius mat wrestler when he just doesn't have the chops to make me buy into it. More than that, he's billed as being the Best in the World, when most of his skillset caps out as "competent" or "good." This is where his case falls apart when you compare him to Misawa or Fujiwara, setting aside the sheer volume argument of how those guys blow him away for all-time great level stuff. When I'm watching prime Misawa, pretty much everything he does is something he's either one of the best at or pretty damn great at. Insanely stiff elbows, breathtaking execution on dives and hurricanrana counters, selling that made me believe, even snug lock-ups and headlocks. Ditto Fujiwara with matches built around insane matwork, next-level charisma, and sickening headbutts. The only aspect of Bryan's game I really get that feel with is his cardio, which actually ends up being more of a net negative for me since he has a tendency of filling his matches with Stuff, where I'd often feel it better if things had a little bit more focus. The AJ Styles match from ROH 2002 is a good example of that I watched recently.

As an aside, having sampled a bit of his AEW stuff, I'm starting to think his prime might actually still be WWE. The over-produced style was actually the perfect environment for accentuating the "good" aspects of his game just enough to where I could actually buy into his gimmick for matches like vs. Kofi and Reigns, whilst also filtering out things like the ill-advised MJF exchange mentioned before.

[Reel]

I think he's still a top 10 guy for me, but I will say that the stuff I've seen him do in AEW has really lessened my esteem for him. Like that abysmal 'hammer and the anvil' elbow spot, it always looks awful, a lot of times it ruins the flow of the match, and he does it all of the time. 

Part of it is that people today eat it up, they love the strike exchanges interspersed with middle fingers and the rest of the workrate slop that's come to dominate wrestling as of late, so in some ways, he's right to lean into that, but that doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's good. 

[El McKell]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:26 AM, fxnj said:

Misawa or Fujiwara, setting aside the sheer volume argument of how those guys blow him away for all-time great level stuff

I love reading stuff like this that is just so alien to my own opinions. I see Fujiwara as someone who has all the tools to be great in theory but has hardly any "all time great level stuff" to show for it, to me Bryan so thoroughly blows Fujiwara away in terms of volume of really great stuff that there's probably 200-300 people between them. 

[ohtani's jacket]

Danielson might be worthy to wash Fujiwara’s feet, but that’s about it. 

[Tetsujin]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:26 AM, fxnj said:

I was watching the early part of the MJF iron man, the part where they run through a series of cooperative looking go-behind wrist locks and do a crappy Indieriffic Standoff headlock exchange that has the commentators marking out, and I think it finally clicked with me why I don't see him as a top 10 guy and am even kind of reluctant on him as a top 100 guy despite his volume of good-to-really-good stuff being undeniable. I'd long attributed it that, unlike his more innovative contemporaries like Low Ki, AJ Styles, and Necro Butcher, his matches didn't really have much of what I'd call his personal stamp. He was the ultimate cosplay wrestler, his moveset a massive hodgepodge of stuff from WoS/shoot-style/lucha/AJPW heavies/NJPW juniors, but when watching his stuff my mind tended to wander more towards how much better his stuff was done by the guys he was imitating rather than staying focused on his personal contribution. That is, unless we count his contribution in popularizing cosplay wrestling itself or annoying post-modern shit like the "I have till 5" thing.

I think this is a pretty interesting argument against Bryan's case, and something I can slightly agree with when considering his 00s work. Like, I'm revisiting some of his classic matches in ROH sometimes and they don't seem as good as I remembered them, they feel kinda... Souless instead, idk. Maybe it's because of this. I still see enough personality in him though, it's just that maybe he didn't put everything together as soon as I remembered and as soon as other GOAT contenders.

Still number #2 for me at this point haha.

[Makai Club #1]

I'm another one that finds his ROH run rather soulless. He's obviously insanely talented and has tons of good matches but I'd much rather watch the average Austin Aries ROH match than the average Bryan Danielson match. He definitely clicks more in the WWE environment where he was more limited, which made him more focused and cohesive, by the house style and perception of being a small guy. 

I wouldn't go as far as to say that he cosplays wrestlers and imitates styles but I think there is something to there being more interesting wrestlers within those styles that Bryan is influenced by. 

I guess Fujiwara is the comparison but I tend to compare him to Fujinami more so because of the aerial and brawling capabilities. But the result is the same, I don't see Bryan better than either of them. And quite a few people on top of that. 

[MLB]

I have never considered Danielson a cosplay wrestler. Early on, he was wearing Regal's boots and doing a lot of his shit. Every wrestler has their influences, I'm curious where exactly does it cross the line into cosplay? I remember watching Bryan vs. Lesnar and thinking to myself, "Bryan definitely watched Tamura vs. Vader to prepare for this."  

HBK is known to have created the "American Dragon" name because he thought Bryan "wrestled like a Japanese guy," which I still don't fully understand what HBK meant by that. Bryan didn't start integrating the kicks and MMA moves until much later on, so I'm not sure what Shawn was referring to back then?  Young Danielson reminds me more of Bob Backlund than any Japanese performer. Maybe Shawn was thinking about Dynamite Kid and attributed that to Japan? 

I'll confess, I am in the camp that eats up the 'hammer and the anvil' elbows.

[Makai Club #1]

Bryan could never get the Row a Boat Armbar spot over like Backlund did 

[Reel]

9 hours ago, MLB said:

I'll confess, I am in the camp that eats up the 'hammer and the anvil' elbows.

Honest and sincere question here. Do you think they look good? Or is it a spot you think is cool and don't care how it looks? 

[EnviousStupid]

While I'm in the camp who still hold his ROH run in high regard, I've been finding most of his other indie work pre-WWE to be disappointing. The FIP title reign as a Saturday morning cartoon-like heel worked against virtually all his strengths back then. The work I've seen of his NJPW/NOAH tours was often ordinary and at times outright wrong-headed for the situation (see the KENTA match in '06 NOAH). While the rivalry with El Generico did nothing for me, there is some great matches from him in PWG, but they tended to be against other greats from his generation who were consistently great back then too. That's kind of where I see some holes in his career. ROH over that period of time is so lauded and near-mythologized that it makes someone like Danielson, prominently featured from the start to his departure, appear head-and-shoulders above his contemporaries. But I think when you look at the scene in its entirety, you'll find guys like Low Ki, Chris Hero, Necro Butcher all having great runs and standout work over several promotions, and that's something I can't say about Bryan back then.

[MLB]

7 hours ago, Reel said:

Honest and sincere question here. Do you think they look good? Or is it a spot you think is cool and don't care how it looks? 

I'd say the latter, I think it's cool and vicious. You don't think he lays them in enough?

[The Man in Blak]

16 hours ago, MLB said:

HBK is known to have created the "American Dragon" name because he thought Bryan "wrestled like a Japanese guy," which I still don't fully understand what HBK meant by that. Bryan didn't start integrating the kicks and MMA moves until much later on, so I'm not sure what Shawn was referring to back then?

Nah, he had those kicks back then - there’s a whole sequence in the triple threat on the first ROH card where Bryan and Low Ki keep one-upping each other by lighting Daniels up with kicks until Daniels ducks/collapses and they both kick each other’s feet for a wipeout.

[MLB]

33 minutes ago, The Man in Blak said:

Nah, he had those kicks back then - there’s a whole sequence in the triple threat on the first ROH card where Bryan and Low Ki keep one-upping each other by lighting Daniels up with kicks until Daniels ducks/collapses and they both kick each other’s feet for a wipeout.

Haha ok, for some reason I thought the kicks didn't come in earnest until he started wearing pads.

[Reel]

10 hours ago, MLB said:

I'd say the latter, I think it's cool and vicious. You don't think he lays them in enough?

No, I think it's a borderline business exposing spot. It just looks like light elbows to the shoulder, but I am more than willing to admit that I'm in the minority on that because people seem to love that spot. 

[Kadaveri]

It's a move that looks good when you're in the crowd but not so much when you're watching on TV with the cameras zooming in.

[Jmare007]

I think the elbows stopped working as a spot when they no longer meant the match was over once he got in the position to hit em, now that's the role his kicks to head have. I don't believe the elbows expose the business anymore than other wrestling spots that most wrestlers do though, I don't find them particularly egregious.

To be fair though, every member of the BCC copying it and doing a waaay worse job than Danielson at them has devalued them more than ever before but at the same times they make Danielson's look like the "real deal" in comparison . 

 

 

[KawadaSmile]

Yeah, the spot where Yuta/Mox/Bryan do it in stereo fucking suuuuuucks. Danielson can lay it in when needed, as made evident by him stomping Lesnar's face in some years ago (it's a better spot, too), but Mox never had good strikes and Yuta is even worse, so when they do that it's really bad. 

[MLB]

16 hours ago, Jmare007 said:

I think the elbows stopped working as a spot when they no longer meant the match was over once he got in the position to hit em, now that's the role his kicks to head have. I don't believe the elbows expose the business anymore than other wrestling spots that most wrestlers do though, I don't find them particularly egregious.

To be fair though, every member of the BCC copying it and doing a waaay worse job than Danielson at them has devalued them more than ever before but at the same times they make Danielson's look like the "real deal" in comparison . 

 

 

 

16 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

Yeah, the spot where Yuta/Mox/Bryan do it in stereo fucking suuuuuucks. Danielson can lay it in when needed, as made evident by him stomping Lesnar's face in some years ago (it's a better spot, too), but Mox never had good strikes and Yuta is even worse, so when they do that it's really bad. 

Agreed on this.