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Puro Elitism

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It doesn't exist. Puro encompasses many different styles and many different promotions that have a different fanbase. Someone who watches All Japan or New Japan are just as likely to frown on the Big Japan death matches as a WWE fan is going to think that CZW sucks. Are there people who have turned their back on American wrestling? Sure and when WWE wrestling was your only option, I can see why. This is why people, such as myself, would have stopped watching long ago if not for the internet, tape trading, and exposure to new promotions.

 

I know several people who have tried to watch Japanese wrestling and couln't get into it for whatever reason. What do we call these elitists who refuse to watch wrestling from a different culture? There are people who don't "get" lucha and others who watch nothing but lucha. So, because a person happens to be devoted to a partiular style or promotion, why are they automatically puro elitists? As a fan of All Japan in the 90s, for every Misawa-Kobashi-Kawada-Taue-Hansen match, there was something on the undercard that would probably make you roll your eyes. For every great Jrs. match I have watched, I have probably seen just as many "spotfests" with blown moves galore.

 

Puro is a nice way of lumping all Japanese wresling together when the reality is much different and to lump fans of puro into the puro elite category is just as ignorant.

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I respectfully disagree. Anyone who's been online longer than five minutes has run into someone who thinks the worst Japanese wrestling is far superior than the best North American wrestling.

 

I can actually understand how people get led in this direction, watching tons of classic Puro can raise your internal expectation bar when it comes to wrestling, and sometimes you can't adjust it when you go back to WWE stuff.

 

What raises my ire is when people get all passive-aggressive over bashing anything not puro in wrestling. They never come out and say it, but the sarcasm and condescending tone are unmistakeable. Neither is the faux-oppression they exclaim when someone calls them on their bullshit.

 

*on edit* I know not all fans of non-American wrestling are elitists. In fact, it's probably a very low percentage that qualify as snobs. It's just that that minority tends to be the most vocal, especially online.

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It doesn't exist. Puro encompasses many different styles and many different promotions that have a different fanbase. Someone who watches All Japan or New Japan are just as likely to frown on the Big Japan death matches as a WWE fan is going to think that CZW sucks. Are there people who have turned their back on American wrestling? Sure and when WWE wrestling was your only option, I can see why. This is why people, such as myself, would have stopped watching long ago if not for the internet, tape trading, and exposure to new promotions.

 

I know several people who have tried to watch Japanese wrestling and couln't get into it for whatever reason. What do we call these elitists who refuse to watch wrestling from a different culture? There are people who don't "get" lucha and others who watch nothing but lucha. So, because a person happens to be devoted to a partiular style or promotion, why are they automatically puro elitists? As a fan of All Japan in the 90s, for every Misawa-Kobashi-Kawada-Taue-Hansen match, there was something on the undercard that would probably make you roll your eyes. For every great Jrs. match I have watched, I have probably seen just as many "spotfests" with blown moves galore.

 

Puro is a nice way of lumping all Japanese wresling together when the reality is much different and to lump fans of puro into the puro elite category is just as ignorant.

The puro elitist thing is generally something that fans of US Wrestling (usually WWE exclusively) like to come up with to justify the negativity that gets levied against certain promotions or wrestlers. And actually, this happens among puroresu fans too, where it becomes a question of promotional loyalties. People are "New Japan marks" or "NOAH marks". Granted, there are fans who are blindly loyal to certain promotions. But the ironic thing, is that it happens more often with WWE and ROH, rather than any Japanese promotion. But generally, most people bring up the bias card in completely unnecessary situations. It seems like they think it's easier to just dismiss an opinion because it's "biased", rather than addressing the points and presenting an intelligent, plausible argument in return. These people really aren't worth the time of day.

 

The current US Indy scene, along with certain periods of mainstream US wrestling have gone a long way to really seperate who's biased towards certain styles and promotions and who's not. Most fans of Japanese pro wrestling also enjoy ROH and other various indies, along with early-mid 90's WCW, and other various periods of US prowrestling. (And I really mean most, I only know of a very small percentage of people who actually refuse to give props to non-Japanese or non-Mexican wrestling) So, to the intelligent observer, this would imply that most of these fans are simply interested in good in-ring wrestling, regardless of where it comes from. To the intelligent observer though. We all know that there's quite a few people who don't fit that criteria, so you continue to have cries of elitism or bias at the drop of a hat.

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The puro elitist thing is generally something that fans of US Wrestling (usually WWE exclusively) like to come up with to justify the negativity that gets levied against certain promotions or wrestlers. And actually, this happens among puroresu fans too, where it becomes a question of promotional loyalties. People are "New Japan marks" or "NOAH marks". Granted, there are fans who are blindly loyal to certain promotions. But the ironic thing, is that it happens more often with WWE and ROH, rather than any Japanese promotion. But generally, most people bring up the bias card in completely unnecessary situations. It seems like they think it's easier to just dismiss an opinion because it's "biased", rather than addressing the points and presenting an intelligent, plausible argument in return. These people really aren't worth the time of day.

 

 

Biased opinons tend to get dismissed because:

 

A) Those of us who've been around online discussion forums have heard them thousands of times before.

 

B) They're biased opinions.

 

C) Intellegent, plausible arguments in return usually get ignored by the person with the assumed bias, since they don't want to hear anything not complementary towards their bias.

 

 

Maybe sometimes people jump the gun when it comes to elitism in wrestling, but 99 times out of 100 you can see the train coming well in advance.

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It exists. You can just go back to the older TSM puro threads before the purging and see it in action. It's a very tiny minority of people but they're bad enough that they give every puro watcher a bad name. The worst side effect of this is a lot of fans just getting their feet wet get attacked and chased away from the Japanese scene.

 

But puro snobs are easy to spot because they spend most of their time attacking Ric Flair.

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But puro snobs are easy to spot because they spend most of their time attacking Ric Flair.

These days, it seems to be ROH and their smarky fans. At least there's one thing that puroresu snobs and WWE fanboys have in common, their total disdain for ROH.

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A puro "snob" would be just as quick to criticize a bad Japanese match as they would a bad American match. How is this a bias toward non-American wrestling? Isn't a bias twoard what we perceive as good wrestling vs. bad wrestling?

 

Doesn't it ultimately come down to what you want out of wrestling? I don't think anyone here has labelled me a puro snob (at least not to my internet face) but I already admitted in this thread that without All Japan wrestling, I would have quit watching wrestling a long time ago. From there, I branched out to Lucha, the Jrs, old American promotions, etc. At a point when I was only watching All Japan and All Japan Women, did that mean I was a puro snob because I refused to watch a subpar wrestling product (2002-03 WWE) that insulkted my intelligence more than it entertained me?

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I really think Herb Kunze started the puro-Elitist movement on the net. Herb not so subtly would say that you were an idiot if you thought American wrestling was better than Japanese wrestling. He was incredibly arrogant and treated his readers as if they were drooling idiots who didn't have the mental capacity to form their own opinions. There were so many Herb replicates on the net in the mid late 90s into 2000s that it was sickening. The last few years the movement has seemed to die down for whatever reason.

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The problem wasn't if you thought that American wrestling was better than Japanese wrestling. The problem is when you fail to actually give reasons why it is better. When you fail to articulate and support your assertions, then it does become a case of someone not being qualified to properly evaluate the merits of a match or whatever.

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A puro "snob" would be just as quick to criticize a bad Japanese match as they would a bad American match. How is this a bias toward non-American wrestling? Isn't a bias twoard what we perceive as good wrestling vs. bad wrestling?

No, there are several people in the old TSM crowd that would wander into threads and say "I've only seen one or two **** matches in the history of the U.S." and it would have at least one puro worker in there. It's a lot similiar to how the ECW mutants were except that they enjoy a higher quality of match.

 

You'll also notice them storming into threads where a U.S. match is getting some buzz and start declaring it was only **1/2 or some nonsense like that.

 

The difference between you and a snob is that a snob will go out of his way to attack the U.S. scene. You just watch what you watch. Snobs also typically attack other puro watchers for not watching the right kind of puro. I've taken a lot of heat on other boards for preferring New Japan to All Japan and having no interest in the joshi feds. It doesn't make me any less of a puro fan but certain types act like it does and that it makes my opinion lesser than their own.

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The problem wasn't if you thought that American wrestling was better than Japanese wrestling. The problem is when you fail to actually give reasons why it is better. When you fail to articulate and support your assertions, then it does become a case of someone not being qualified to properly evaluate the merits of a match or whatever.

but the problem is that your argument to why it is better is usually met with a sarcastic non-response by the puro fan. Again I'll use Herb as an example. Whenever someone would call out Herb and give well thought out arguments that challenged his beliefs, his response was usually along the lines of " whatever, I'm not wasting my time on this drivel" and then he would move on.

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I wouldn't call you a snob, helmet (well maybe a VQ snob, but not a wrestling snob :lol: )

 

Anyone who can acknowledge that it's possible for a US promotion to have a good match with no puro workers involved is okay by me.

 

 

A puro "snob" would be just as quick to criticize a bad Japanese match as they would a bad American match. How is this a bias toward non-American wrestling? Isn't a bias twoard what we perceive as good wrestling vs. bad wrestling?

 

The puro snob would say the bad Japanese match was still better than the bad American match. I've seen that before a million times where a review of a shitty puro match was topped off with something like "it sucked but it was better than watching a Kane match".

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At a point when I was only watching All Japan and All Japan Women, did that mean I was a puro snob because I refused to watch a subpar wrestling product (2002-03 WWE) that insulkted my intelligence more than it entertained me?

Sadly, to some people it does mean you're a puro snob. But anyone who thinks like that doesn't deserve the time of day.

 

It comes down to supportable opinions vs. unsupportable opinions. Just because someone says a supposedly "great" American match is only **1/2 doesn't make them a snob. If it's an opinion they can't support, then they're an idiot and probably are a snob. If it's an opinion they can support and no one else can debunk, well guess what? Their opinion is more valid than anyone else's. Too many people are content to play the "it's all subjective, every opinion is equal" game. Then they get angry when someone debunks their opinion with a solid argument. Then that usually leads to cries of snobbery and elitism. Or whines of "It's wrestling, don't be so negative and just enjoy it!!!" It's only snobbery if people put Japanese matches or wrestlers up on a pedestal, simply because it's Japanese, and when they can't support such claims. Just like it's fanboyism when people put WWE matches or wrestlers on a pedestal when they can't support such claims. There's quite a double standard actually.

 

And as I said, it's completely fucking asinine to accuse someone of being a puroresu snob if they're clearly fans of more than just puroresu. Especially if their favourite promotions or wrestlers aren't based out of Japan. I mean seriously, how do some people justify such an opinion based on those facts? I'd have more respect for these morons if they just said "I'm anti-workrate fan." Then at least it's not completely illogical, even if it is a rather dickheaded stance to take.

 

And to add - It comes down to this. Some people ARE fanboys or snobs of certain promotions or wrestlers. And ironically, that's where the cries of elitism come from. I've almost never seen people being accused of being an elitist just because they were talking about how good some match or wrestler was. It almost always comes after some negative comment. "WWE sucks" "AJ Styles is spotty" "Kurt Angle is overrated" etc. People get offended by the comments, and then look for ways to dismiss the comments without having to view them as legitimate critiques. "You're just saying that because you're a puroresu snob". It reeks of desperation and ignorance.

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Another sub-argument to this discussion is a lot of the people who "say a supposedly "great" American match is only **1/2" are usually parroting someone else's opinion and can't really define why they rate the match like they did.

 

It also doesn't help when every paragraph includes passive-aggressive comments on how everyone who disagrees with you is a fucking moron.

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Mad Dog...

I won't even get into RoH mutants. Another couple of years and they might be worse than the ECW fans ever were.

The big difference being that ROH has had about a dozen or so matches that are better than the best ECW had to offer.

 

No, there are several people in the old TSM crowd that would wander into threads and say "I've only seen one or two **** matches in the history of the U.S." and it would have at least one puro worker in there.

Can you give an example?

 

It's a lot similiar to how the ECW mutants were except that they enjoy a higher quality of match.

This is kind of my point... and a point MSQ gets to later on.... is it elitism based on match quality or geography?

 

You'll also notice them storming into threads where a U.S. match is getting some buzz and start declaring it was only **1/2 or some nonsense like that.

Only nonsense if they can't back up their opinion with logical evidence based on the match. To me, this is very similar to what SK did wih JBL-Eddie from Judgment Day. He did a bunch of play by play, claimed Eddie caried JBL and slapped some stars on it. Tim dissected his report, repeatedly pointed out flaws and exposed the hack on one match. Now, the Tim-SK match was the case of an "elitist" actually giving a match more credit than the fanboy. Still, it remains a perfect example of someone being able to back up what they write and someone who makes blanket statements they hope will stick.

 

Snobs also typically attack other puro watchers for not watching the right kind of puro. I've taken a lot of heat on other boards for preferring New Japan to All Japan and having no interest in the joshi feds. It doesn't make me any less of a puro fan but certain types act like it does and that it makes my opinion lesser than their own.

Right, but I think it still goes to being able to successfully articulate why you like one over the other. For joshi, it could be as simple as not liking to see two women inflict pain on each other and from a man's standpoint, I can't really argue that. However, if it was because you thought it was an inferior product, esp. at its peak, I would challenge you on that.

 

 

Strummer...

Whenever someone would call out Herb and give well thought out arguments that challenged his beliefs, his response was usually along the lines of " whatever, I'm not wasting my time on this drivel" and then he would move on.

In a way I can see this but at the saem time there does come a point in time where people start talking in circles. If Herb and this uy were going rounds and repeating the same arguments, I could see why he would end it.

 

 

sek69...

I wouldn't call you a snob, helmet (well maybe a VQ snob, but not a wrestling snob :lol: )

Most def. a VQ snob and I happily admit that. Why would I settle for a 4th gen copy where I can barely make out the participants when I can get the master copy? Clear VQ also helps when you are trying to examine a match closely.

 

Anyone who can acknowledge that it's possible for a US promotion to have a good match with no puro workers involved is okay by me.

See, maybe I live in a bubble but I have never seen this happen... ever. I have never seen or read any puro snob say that it is impossible for American workers to have great matches with other American workers. It kind of goes back to an old example I have used before. I used to think Owen-Bret from WMX was one of the greatest matches I have ever seen... then I discovered tape trading and became exposed to other forms of wrestling. All of a sudden, Owen-Bret was merely really good. In all honesty, I think experience has as much to do with it than anything.

 

The puro snob would say the bad Japanese match was still better than the bad American match. I've seen that before a million times where a review of a shitty puro match was topped off with something like "it sucked but it was better than watching a Kane match".

To me, this is completely contingent on what match they were talking about.

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Can you give an example?

It's been years since those posters have been around and with everything shoved into general now I would never be able to find it.

 

The big difference being that ROH has had about a dozen or so matches that are better than the best ECW had to offer.

True but they do a lot of the same things. They'll hang from a guys nuts forever but he suddenly starts working somewhere else or leaves and "he's overrated" or "he could never wrestle." They also tend to overrate everything that comes from the company. And as we've discussed before crow about aspects of the product that just don't exist (sports entertainment).

 

This is kind of my point... and a point MSQ gets to later on.... is it elitism based on match quality or geography?

Geography. Like I said if you just watch All Japan and that's what you like that's what you like. I myself watch more New Japan than about anything else right now. It becomes snobbery when you shit on something because it wasn't in Japan or the workers don't work mostly in Japan.

 

It would be like me shitting on every U.S. lucha style match because it didn't happen in CMLL.

 

Only nonsense if they can't back up their opinion with logical evidence based on the match.

Usually the nonsense you get is "Flair's matches are all the same" or "Flair dared to use the same move in two different matches" or something similiar.

 

Right, but I think it still goes to being able to successfully articulate why you like one over the other. For joshi, it could be as simple as not liking to see two women inflict pain on each other and from a man's standpoint, I can't really argue that. However, if it was because you thought it was an inferior product, esp. at its peak, I would challenge you on that.

And I very easily can. I enjoy new Japan more because they have a superior junior division and juniors are what I dig in New Japan. I also enjoy them because I like a little sports entertainment mixed in and you tend to get that from them more. Plus I feel most New Japan shows are a little more complete than All Japan. All Japan usually is awesome at the top of the card but you have to suffer through a lot of matches you won't remember in an hour to get there. I also hate 60 minute draws. I don't care how good the match was I always feel ripped off when I invest an hour of my life into something and don't get a decisive finish.

 

Joshi, I just don't care about women's wrestling. I can put up with a match or two on a regular card but a whole show is just overkill for me. And this is going to sound really stupid but screaming Japanese women just grate on my nerves like nothing else. There's jsut something about it that just irriates the hell out of me.

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About Joshi and other promotions - There's also a big difference between saying you don't prefer something and saying that it's crappy wrestling. Most people who don't dig joshi are pretty good with that, they usually don't trash the wrestling, they just say they don't like it. With something like ROH, that doesn't seem to happen though. People say they aren't into the product, and then use it as justification for why the product sucks. If people aren't into a certain promotion for whatever reason, fine. But that reason in itself doesn't prove anything as far as whether or not the wrestling is good.

 

And on the flip side, people don't need to get worked up about that either (and some do). Because like I said, there's a difference between someone not liking a promotion and someone saying the promotion sucks. Granted, I've been puzzled about why someone doesn't like a certain promotion or style, but I don't go and trash them because of it.

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Guest Sass

I'd just like to add one thing: Tim Cooke has come a long way from his early days at TSM. Today, Tim's got one of the best eyes for good wrestling matches I could think of other than someone like Loss, tomk or DEAN~! over at the DVDVR board. Tim's definitely in the upper echelon of guys I think people should go to for good match recommendations first.

 

Tim outdid himself last year when he punted Skeith in the balls for his crappy "match review" of Eddy vs. Bradshaw. That was great stuff as Tim rightfully called out the Big Wig on his bullshit and got the match over in the process.

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It's been years since those posters have been around and with everything shoved into general now I would never be able to find it.

I can understand that. The only problem is I need some context here because I still have never seen the scenarios you are specifically talking about.

 

 

True but they do a lot of the same things. They'll hang from a guys nuts forever but he suddenly starts working somewhere else or leaves and "he's overrated" or "he could never wrestle."

Are you talking about the fans' reactions? For ECW, I think it was a case of them over-hyping the wrestlers after they left. For ROH, can you give an example? I know the WWE wrestlers said CM Punk couldn't work in order to bury him but I don't know of any fan instances that this could apply.

 

 

And as we've discussed before crow about aspects of the product that just don't exist (sports entertainment).

Can you elaborate here? I don't know what you are implying.

 

Geography. Like I said if you just watch All Japan and that's what you like that's what you like. I myself watch more New Japan than about anything else right now. It becomes snobbery when you shit on something because it wasn't in Japan or the workers don't work mostly in Japan.

 

It would be like me shitting on every U.S. lucha style match because it didn't happen in CMLL.

This goes back to examples because I have never seen this. I will tkae your word for it but I cannot accept this position mainly because I have seen some over-generalizations in this thread about these puro snobs but no actual examples or links have been given.

 

 

Usually the nonsense you get is "Flair's matches are all the same" or "Flair dared to use the same move in two different matches" or something similiar.

 

This one I can address because I know of several Flair discussion threads. The example you use is wrong and again Flair has never been criticized for using the same move in 2 matches. He dared to use the same move or sequence in 200-300 matches in a row whether the match called for it or not, whether he was a face or a heel. Another valid Flair criticism is that he would work a Flair match regardless of his opponent. It's great to work that kind of match against a Nikita Koloff or El Gigante but the feeling is that this formula held back potentially great matches against better opponents. The most famous Flair discussion I can recall is a discussion that happened on the Wrestling Classics board a couple years back. It was the tOA guys arguing with Meltzer and assorted others about the greatest wrestler and of course Flair's name got mentioned. I have a huge chunk of this saved in a word document and will post it when I get home)

 

And I very easily can. I enjoy new Japan more because they have a superior junior division and juniors are what I dig in New Japan. I also enjoy them because I like a little sports entertainment mixed in and you tend to get that from them more. Plus I feel most New Japan shows are a little more complete than All Japan.

I won't argue with any of this.

 

I also hate 60 minute draws. I don't care how good the match was I always feel ripped off when I invest an hour of my life into something and don't get a decisive finish.

For me personally, it is all about how good the match is. I'll take 60 minutes of goodness with a bad finish over any amount-of-time-you-want-to-put-in-there-of-mediocrity anyday of the week.

 

Joshi, I just don't care about women's wrestling. I can put up with a match or two on a regular card but a whole show is just overkill for me. And this is going to sound really stupid but screaming Japanese women just grate on my nerves like nothing else. There's jsut something about it that just irriates the hell out of me.

If the squealing gets on your nerves, I won't argue with you about it. I think it is a shallow reason but it isn't like you are claiming AJW in 1992-3 is inferior to another promotion... similar to what MSQ was pointing out. There is a difference between saying "I don't like it" and "I think it sucks".

 

 

Tim Cooke has come a long way from his early days at TSM.

Ever since I have read Tim's posts he has a good eye for quality wrestling.

 

 

Tim's got one of the best eyes for good wrestling matches I could think of

No doubt!

 

 

Tim outdid himself last year when he punted Skeith in the balls for his crappy "match review" of Eddy vs. Bradshaw. That was great stuff as Tim rightfully called out the Big Wig on his bullshit and got the match over in the process.

This goes without repeating.

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Can you elaborate here? I don't know what you are implying.

Some of the more hardcore RoH fans at times seem to think there's no sports entertainment in the fed. There obviously is and always has. How else can you have guys fight each other more than a few times unless you have the SE side of things to keep things fresh. These are typically the types that buy into everything the announcers say and show up on the RoH boards.

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Ahhh, ok. Yah, I think that is more with the announcers spinning that crap and then seeing people buy into the hype. I mentioned this before but when I first started watching ROH, I had to keep the sound down because I would watch it at 2:00 in the morning while my wife was sleeping. Without sound, the crowd never bothered me and the announcing never bothered me. With sound, some of those older shows are annoying as hell and to argue that there is no Sports Entertainment is asinine. It is esp. hard to believe when they have Teddy Hart and Jack Evans jumping off a cage doing thirty twists in the air and then getting back in the ring a minute later to climb the cage and finish off the match with another absurd move with the SAT.

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I still remember the first time I tried to get into Puro. I'm sure a lot of people made the segway the same way that I did. You hear that a certain wrestler that you know of works overseas and you're curious what he's doing. In my case, it was Vader, Bam Bam Bigelow & Scott Norton because I was a huge "big man" mark.

 

So, I hopped onto some old mIRC channels and checked out some matches. Nothing fancy. Pretty much just squash matches that left me unimpressed. Bad experience for the most part.

 

Then I started reading more message forums and looking to branch outwards in my wrestling. I'm sure a lot of fans have done it. I even went out of my way to get Fire Pro Wrestling D on Dreamcast because I'd read so many people say it was the "best wrestling game ever." I got the game and, naturally, I couldn't figure out the controls since I was used to Wrestlemania 2000 controls and whatnot. The whole concept of breathing and hitting more than one button at a time to do a move was foreign to me. Once again, I hit up mIRC. I found a Fire Pro channel and went in asking for help. Basically, I was run-off and talked down to. Presumably it was because I wasn't real knowledgeable of Puro. I believe the final comment before I left the channel was "have fun watching Jackhammers on Nitro." Another bad experience.

 

Thankfully, Goodhelmet made me a comp. tape of 90's AJPW or I would've given up on Puro altogether. I'd already had two bad experiences. The first was due to my lack of knowledge about the product and, really, workrate in general. I mean, I was looking for Scott Norton matches! The second, well, I just ran into an asshole. Instead of just answering my question, he had to attempt to belittle me.

 

I can certainly see, if my experience is any indication, why people would be quick to stereotype Puroresu fans. They're just like any other wrestling fans though. There's good and bad. I guess the argument comes from which fans you consider good and which ones you consider bad.

 

It took me a real long time to figure out what I do actually like in wrestling. I got Super J Cup '94 & '95 and didn't like either one. I couldn't bring myself to admit that I hated AJ Styles. It took me a long time to realize that I'm just not a huge fan of high-flying moves. I like when women are involved in the storylines. I like clean finishes but I hate false finishes. I don't like when wrestlers use one anothers finisher. Just a bunch of things that you really don't put your finger on right away.

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Guest Crucifixio Jones

I believe the final comment before I left the channel was "have fun watching Jackhammers on Nitro."

LOL. Those puro guys are f*cking @ssholes.

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The puro elitism thing is true but it's not as strong as it used to be. Some of them have realised what they were and have actually mellowed. Discussion has lessened as well. I could name about 10 people in this category but won't because I'm a nice guy and I don't have time for arguements with them.

 

I argued with some of the elitists over at TSM back in its elitism heyday. I even created a couple of threads where I mixed up my real thoughts with some fake thoughts just to get a reaction. I was mad at what one of the elitists had said to a poster on another board so I just made up a thread to tick him off halfway curious on how long it'd take me to get a response. Let me say, it didn't take too long which if I remember correctly was a trademark of several of the elitists.

 

I've argued with other elitists on other boards as well mostly for being completely honest with my wrestling opinions. Opinions that have taken a lot of heat because a lot of my opinions are signifigantly different than the practically "set in stone" non debatable opinion of the elitists. They're not capable of thinking that a match can be better to another person than it is to themselves. Even if the arguement against them is well presented.

People that have insulted me several times just because of my wrestling opinions.

 

Of course, on the other side of the coin lots of people don't fall in this category.

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