AJ Styles

[rvd356]

How fucking dumb is it to not watch some of the absolute great stuff that happened back when TNA was good, yet people will watch some fucking dogshit match from Alabama in the 60's where they lay in a headlock for 60 minutes and randomly throw "great punches!" Or whatever.

 

AJ Styles is one of the most exciting wrestlers of all time. The guy does everything. He sells exhaustion and any body part perfectly without being boring as shit from no movement. He isn't overly innovative to where it's annoying like Chris Sabin or some garbage like that but he comes up with something cool like The Styles Clash and hits it from every where. His punches, by the way, are awesome. In TNA. The Pele is one of the best transition moves for the match.

 

If you can watch his performance vs. Joe @ Turning Point 2005, vs. Paul London in ROH 03, vs. Low Ki in ROH 02, and a million others BUT the Bully Ray @ Slammiversary 2011 is I think THE best AJ performance. Sure there's the ducking insane stage dive about 25 feet *long* and 15 feet high onto Ray, and that 20 foot elbow drop off the scaffolding, but I like when he just rages out and picks the fat bastard up and power slams him over the top rope to the floor.

 

If you just ignore something with so much volume like TNA, how can your list even be valid?

 

AJ is top 5 for me.

[Matt D]

Hey, is that Alabama match you mentioned on youtube?

[rvd356]

Lol I just came back on here to apology if anyone read that. I've been on a lot of narcotics and have a bad case of MRSA and well life is not peachy.

 

And then I go and do exactly what others usually do to my tastes and shit all over someone else's. But not here, this board is very mature for how pretentious it is, which I mean as a compliment as it intrigued me orIginally.

[rvd356]

But yeah I'm probably just going to make my lists and not look into the threads where I could get offended. There is such a small sample size of TNA that I watch regularly(05-07, Aries 12 run, any AJ, Daniels and Hardy) but I sound like such an idiot defending it. I'm glad AJ is getting some love in Japan, and to me, the real Dream Match for 2016 is the same one I had in 2002, 2005-2007: Brock Lesnar v. AJ Styles

[KB8]

I'm not a massive AJ fan or anything, but the Joe match from Turning Point '05 really is excellent (and the best TNA match I've ever seen, which I wouldn't call a particularly high bar but that's whatever) and it's as much to do with AJ as Joe. Haven't watched any of his ROH stuff in about seven years, but I remember liking him in plenty of that. I watched the Suzuki and Naito matches from last year as well and thought the Naito match was good pretty much entirely down to Styles, while the Suzuki match was every bit the MOTYC it was pimped as.

 

I plan on watching more of him during this, particularly stuff from the last couple years.

[W2BTD]

But yeah I'm probably just going to make my lists and not look into the threads where I could get offended. There is such a small sample size of TNA that I watch regularly(05-07, Aries 12 run, any AJ, Daniels and Hardy) but I sound like such an idiot defending it. I'm glad AJ is getting some love in Japan, and to me, the real Dream Match for 2016 is the same one I had in 2002, 2005-2007: Brock Lesnar v. AJ Styles

 

TNA is going to go down in history as the promotion with the most unknown gems, because people continually write it off due to booking nonsense and for being... well, for being TNA.

 

Years from now when we're all dead, a website like this is going to do a focuses rewatch of the best of TNA and be shocked at how great some of the stuff is, because TNA simply never ever gets pimped.

[Jingus]

TNA has long had a way of making the matches feel crappier than they were. Cheap-looking production, lousy camerawork, overly frenetic cutting, terribly forced and insincere commentary, and the inevitable lame overbooking and lousy finishes all conspire to strangle the workrate right in the middle of the ring (regardless of whether it had four or six sides).

[NotJayTabb]

Yeah, even really good TNA matches somehow feel a bit off. I've never quite been able to put my finger on it, but I think Jingus has nailed it. I think wrestling in front of the same jaded crowd for years didn't help, moments that should have felt big often felt lacklustre due to the lack of crowd reaction.

[TravJ1979]

 

But yeah I'm probably just going to make my lists and not look into the threads where I could get offended. There is such a small sample size of TNA that I watch regularly(05-07, Aries 12 run, any AJ, Daniels and Hardy) but I sound like such an idiot defending it. I'm glad AJ is getting some love in Japan, and to me, the real Dream Match for 2016 is the same one I had in 2002, 2005-2007: Brock Lesnar v. AJ Styles

 

TNA is going to go down in history as the promotion with the most unknown gems, because people continually write it off due to booking nonsense and for being... well, for being TNA.

 

Years from now when we're all dead, a website like this is going to do a focuses rewatch of the best of TNA and be shocked at how great some of the stuff is, because TNA simply never ever gets pimped.

 

I've seen everything from TNA 2002-2009 and it had a good sampling of good-very good matches with only a handful of excellent ones. I'd say about 50% of that would be anything I'd want to see again. 2010-current is something I feel like I should watch just to compare, but I cannot bring myself to do it.

[SomethingSavage]

I'd safely say there are just as many gems in late era TNA, but there's certainly a benefit to being able to cherry pick them from the outset - rather than foraging through the footage for the stuff.

[BuryWindham]

I have no problem banging the GWE drum for AJ Styles.

 

His run from 02-08 is some of the best work I've seen in the past 15 years and 2014 and 2015 are consensus worker of the year level stuff.

 

Focusing on his early run, I'd say it's a race between him and Daniel Bryan for consistently great matches.

[Jimmy Redman]

AJ to me is a perfect example of a statement that has been tossed around recently - wrestling isn't a zero sum game. There's sometimes a false dichotomy that says that a wrestler is either spot-heavy and mindless, or less-is-more with excellent psychology. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and AJ is a guy who has both sides to his game: a fast pace and cool highspots, as well as babyface selling and neat psychology. Portrayals of him as a spot monkey (which have been tempered by his stint in a more fashionable company in NJPW) are really missing the mark.

 

He stands out from a crowd of his peers precisely because of his babyface fire, timing of big spots, his selling. He adds a certain...gravitas to matches that you wouldn't expect. He's great as a babyface ace of a division, great as an underdog against a bigger dude, great in workratey stuff, great in spotty exhibitions, great as a bumping heel, great as a fired up face in a grudge match, great as a tag worker, great jumping off high places.

 

His 2005 is just immense. A laundry list of the best matches is impressive enough, but it also doesn't quite convey just how good he was on TV in basically any random match throughout the year, and how effective he was at transitioning from X Division ace to heavyweight champ and back to X Division ace ready to put over the next X Division ace, all within a matter of months. He held that whole promotion together that year. AND that's not even getting into the good stuff he was doing outside of TNA in 2005, like the Rave feud. But his best matches in 2005 include:

 

vs Petey vs Sabin - Final Resolution (Ultimate X)

vs Chris Daniels - Against All Odds (30 Min Ironman)

vs Abyss - Lockdown (Cage)

vs Sean Waltman - No Surrender

vs Samoa Joe - Sacrifice

vs Joe vs Daniels - Unbreakable

vs Daniels - Bound for Glory (30 Min Ironman)

vs Joe - Turning Point

 

In fact I'm almost just listing every PPV match he had that year. Which should tell you something. It's really one of the best calendar years of the 21st century.

[Benbeeach]

^ To add to the gravitas. A certain poster reviewed a match (it was Parv, who cares) reviewed a match against Joe in 2005 where it seemingly didn't connect. It was said the beatdown wasn't believable vis a vis the grave commentary that came with it. (Despite AJ's mouth leaking like a faucet by the end) Not going to sit here and say Mike Tenay and Don "I was this close to selling shamwows" West aren't prone to a bit of hyperbole. But perhaps in this case it was warranted given the booking and circumstance. Joe had ran through everyone, accept AJ, because AJ was the standard bearer, and carried himself and sold and executed like a big deal. So if Joe could do this to AJ, then he really was every bit the devastating monster he was pegged to be. Joe certainly brought the lunch pale 99/100 back in those days, but that particular match is all on AJ and his selling, his character, his "fight" so to speak.

He never looked out of place against heavyweights in a way that a lot of his contemporaries did because he had a way to make his character, his offense fit, and look logical, and wasn't above punching people in the mouth and get a match over on his resiliency and great strength for his size. A junior, that always felt like top of the promotion material.

AJ from about 2002 onward was always a cut above the rest, and more often than not it was his opponents that had to work UP to him and not the other way around. He could do a backflip reverse DDT that on the surface is a total wtf move and work it in a way that looked like an excellent desperation counter, or work it in a way that looked like a total show off dick look at me move. A guy who can, at it's very basic, pull of a fosbury flop, and again be able to use it as the ultimate babyface flash dive, last ditch hope, and everything in between should be commended for it, not condemned.

If AJ is the best from a generation of workers that don't connect or don't check off enough boxes, or aren't working in a grounded enough sense of reality, then I understand dismissing some things from the era, but not AJ himself, who was besides Danielson, the best of his era, and as far as things you'd look for from a pro wrestler, a modern pro wrestler, has and does nearly everything. Seems unfair. Short sighted. Sometimes, if something is pimped as great and you don't see it. It's you.

[Dylan Waco]

One of the best things about this project has been the the multitude of random stuff I've watched. Especially important has been the stuff I've watched that I probably wouldn't have watched in any other situation either because of bad memories and/or bad reputation associated with it, or because it wouldn't have been something at the forefront. As it happens, two random things I have ended up watching a ton of are TNA and Wildside/Anarchy. It's not surprising that the Wildside/Anarchy stuff is a lot of fun and holds up fairly well, but it has been almost shocking to me the number of TNA matches that I have enjoyed a great deal. Perhaps that's something that is easier to do in hindsight, when the booking doesn't matter as much. Or maybe it's just that I've watched a bunch of AJ Styles. But either way, the combination of the Wildside stuff and the TNA stuff I've watched has really swung me around on AJ Styles big time to the point that I'm about to say something I would have thought crazy even two months ago - I am at the moment considering the idea of rating Styles over Daniel Bryan.

 

Now let me be clear. I am in no way saying this is something I will certainly do. In fact if pressed at this moment I would have Bryan above him. That said, I don't think the gap is all that wide, or at least it doesn't feel that wide as someone who has gone through a ton of footage over the last several months.

 

First things first. I think Bryan is more versatile than Styles in some ways. For example I freely concede that he's a more compelling mat worker. I also think that bad AJ is far worse than bad Bryan, though I would note here that Bryan managed to avoid working post-prime Kurt Angle, and given his penchant for going long I can absolutely envision a scenario where he had matches at least close to as appalling as the worst AJ v. Kurt bouts.

 

Having said that I think young heel AJ in Wildside was a better heel than Bryan ever was in terms of playing a hateable character that could garner real heat, and then channel it back into the match. It's true it didn't last long in part because the crowd sort of instinctively loved him, but there is also no question that he was more invested in being a bad guy than Danielson ever was.

 

I prefer pre-ROH Styles to pre-ROH Bryan. Granted it's a relatively small sample from both, but AJ as the crazy face of Cornelia wrestling, really could do it all, and was a smarter worker at that young age than he is often given credit for.

 

I'm not at all sure who I would rate as the better wrestler from 02-04. Probably Bryan because he was a less spotty wrestler, and seemed to have a better command of how to build a match. That said there is a lot of AJ from this period that is underrated. Random TNA matches v. guys like Red, Kash, et. hold up as very good, bordering on great in many cases. His appearances in Cornelia fall under the same category. He was definitely not as polished as Bryan during the period, but I also feel he was more reliable holding up his end of a true feud.

 

05 I would honestly take AJ over Bryan which I'm sure will be controversial. To me despite having the extreme handicap of working in the shittiest promotion of all time, he regularly delivered in strong performances not just against great workers like Joe, but totally turds like Abyss. It's possible that Bryan had more good matches that year, and maybe even more great ones. But I can't recall a single one off the top of my head and that is telling in it's own way. More to the point I think what AJ's year jumps off the page more.

 

06-07 is Bryan for sure, though I had lost interest in him to a large degree by the middle of 07, and I tend to think that things like AJ's tag run with Daniels are really underrated. 08 isn't really a year I'd rate much from either guy off the top of my head.

 

09-13 I freely concede is Bryan's, but here is the thing - I think I kind of like AJ's post-TNA run more than Bryan's WWE run. It's close and I could be convinced I'm being dumb. After all I loved Bryan v. Cena and Bryan v. Sheamus. That said the variety of Styles run, the range of opponents he's worked, the multitude of places where he's stepped up to the plate and hit home runs. All of this impresses me big time. The fact that he has done so much of this building his matches around psychology/selling and not purely spots is also a big plus to me.

 

Looking at this I guess I'd rate Bryan above Styles still for a variety of reasons, but it really doesn't feel like the gap is that large to me. In general I think A.J.'s TNA run - especially through 07 or so though there are gems even after that - is really, really underrated, as is his run in Wildside. He's definitely gone from being a guy with a shot, to a guy would edge on, to a guy who will easily make my list.

[Jimmy Redman]

I don't think it's an absurd notion at all. AJ's 2005 holds up to me more than almost anything, which is amazing because - it cannot be stated enough - TNA.

[Matt D]

Styles isn't making my list, but he's one of the many people who won't make it because I don't feel like I can accurately judge him. He'd be in the 70s-80s now, likely, from what I've seen, and that's not fair to him, in my mind. There's a tension point that I'm judging this on. If I feel like I'm close on someone, I'll include them. If I feel like I'm not, I won't.

[WingedEagle]

Started going back to some early TNA AJ and it is a whole lot better than I recalled. Lock for my list.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm wondering if Styles's move to WWE has changed the way people view him at all.

 

Only because I've detected a very slight shift in the way he's thought about for this, whereby he's gone from being someone to strongly consider to something like a slam dunk.

 

Any truth to that?

[WingedEagle]

Perhaps in some circles it may validate him? He would've been a fringe candidate in my eyes before the New Japan run. That may have been entirely off base and subjecting him to the stink of Dixieland, but the last 2 years entrenched him on the list and looking back at TNA/ROH work is pushing him higher.

[InYourCase]

I'm wondering if Styles's move to WWE has changed the way people view him at all.

 

Only because I've detected a very slight shift in the way he's thought about for this, whereby he's gone from being someone to strongly consider to something like a slam dunk.

 

Any truth to that?

100% - he had such a TNA stench on him that no one wanted to see how great he was. It was still there when this project started and it plagued him throughout his run in TNA. He's a little crisper and much more motivated now, but it's not like he had a revelation and just decided to be a great worker. He's been great since 2002 but the environment he was in prevented some from seeing it. He's looked at as a star now, which disproves theories about him being a flippy geek that worked in Nashville. The entire outlook on AJ has changed.

[Matt D]

I'm wondering if Styles's move to WWE has changed the way people view him at all.

 

Only because I've detected a very slight shift in the way he's thought about for this, whereby he's gone from being someone to strongly consider to something like a slam dunk.

 

Any truth to that?

Really, I think it's more the year, year and a half of freelance work that led up to him getting signed that moved the needle. It wasn't an overnight thing.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm going on the kinda feel I got when I talked about him with people in 2014 and the kinda feel I'm getting about him now.

 

I reckon he might have *switched places* with CM Punk in that time if that makes any sense.

 

You know, the smart community has always had to have "their guy". Their guy in the 80s was Flair. In the 90s they had a few different guys, but Bret and Shawn were the two foremost probably. In the 00s it was Bryan, and then for a while Punk, and now it seems to be Styles.

[funkdoc]

2014 is an interesting period to reference because that may have been before we really knew how he would work out in NJPW. i distinctly remember a lot of "WTF?!?" reactions to him winning the IWGP title

 

i feel like proving himself as the top heel in the world's #2 promotion was the main thing that washed off the TNA

[Jimmy Redman]

I agree with Parv that there's been a shift on thinking about AJ, but it has nothing to do with WWE and everything to do with his New Japan/freelancer run since leaving TNA.

 

If AJ hadn't signed with WWE and was still in New Japan today, I don't think the talk would be any different.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think his going to the WWE has much of anything to do with people feeling more slam dunkish on him. I suspect for most people the issue was that he was widely viewed as one of the top few wrestlers on Earth for the last few years. He was more unifying than any of the top NJPW guys or WWE guys in this regard in that he didn't seem to meet the wrath of critics of either of those scenes.

 

For me there are three things that took him from maybe, to an easy yes.

 

The first is what I just mentioned.

 

The second is the fact that as I've become increasingly more interested in indie wrestling, and Southern indie wrestling in particular, I've gone back and watched Wildside era AJ, as well as watching some of his better indie matches over the last few years and love the stuff.

 

The third is that for reasons I can't fully explain I have watched a lot of old TNA during this process and I've been amazed at how good Styles work was there.

 

I don't think he's done anything in WWE that would substantially help or hurt his case.