7 for 7: A project within a project

[ohtani's jacket]

I was pimping that Veidor/Davies match years ago on DVDVR to anyone who would listen. I stumbled across it going through a huge mass of WoS DVDs and was blown away by it. Seeing the love for it now is like seeing your favorite local bar band hitting it big.

 

What also helps the public-warning system is that rules matter and have consequences. The referee doesn't just ineffectively tell guys to "open them up"--if a wrestler's caught throwing a punch, it's a DQ. Even hair pulling, or Davies yanking on Veidor's fingers, would end a match at least eventually. Outside of Bill Alfonso-type referee angles, that's never done.

 

It would sometimes lead to a DQ. It depended on how much the wrestler had been doing it, how many public warnings they had or how blatant it was. Literally everybody did the concealed punch spot. The public-warning system is something I take for granted these days, but there was also an unwritten rule that the ref would allow a certain amount of retaliation if he felt like the opponent had been using inside moves. They would also issue private warnings and would even give the faces public warnings so that Walton could exclaim how he'd never seen wrestler A receive a public warning to piss off all the nit pickers at home like me. The DQ for a punch is actually one of my least favourite finishes. Nine times out of ten it makes the heel look stupid as opposed to getting his just deserts.

[JerryvonKramer]

I thought I'd do some of the homework too. The Funks tag did just about nothing for me. The visual of both Funks bleeding was strong and I liked their comeback, but the heels weren't domineering enough for me and I thought it was odd that Dory ended up being more psychotic and vicious than either of them. I'm not sure it was even a match, to be honest. It was as though the match never really started and just descended into an out of control brawl. I can appreciate Parv's review and his feelings on the match, but I don't really see how the stakes were high enough for Dory to go so crazy in the match.

There is some context. They had a match the previous year in 1977 so had a pretty heated rivalry going into this. And Sheik and Abby are just such cheating villainous swines that it seems to send Dory over the edge. I think what sets him off is Sheik attacking his hand earlier in the match, which is why he targets the hand in the psychotic attack.

 

I think a lot of people will prefer the 79 match (also a classic), which is the blow off to all of this and more a "real match". But there's something about the level of primal rage in the 78 match that struck a chord. Sheik is a desparate and broken figure at the end of it all. Which is where those Magnum / Tully comparisons come in.

 

I'll probably be alone in thinking it's better than the 79 match.

[Dylan Waco]

Pre-1980s -- Michel Allary vs. Jack de Lassartesse (1/22/60)

 

This was incredibly entertaining at points, but was needlessly long. I have no problem with long matches as a rule, but the way they set up the babyface comebacks in this was so ridiculously repetitive, and it came across as some of the most egregious time filling stuff I've ever seen in a match. Having said that from the perspective of pure character work and mechanics this was very good. I really liked the heel (I believe it was Jack de Lassartesse, but I had to have the sound turned way down so I'm not sure). He reminded me of a Pretty Boy Doug Somers and/or Chuck Sims, both in look, execution and how he carried himself. So much of what he did was awkward and almost unathletic looking, that he when he finally came off the top with the bombs away at the finish it felt like an even bigger blow than it would have otherwise. I'm not sure if that was by design, but it was a nice touch, and I have a soft spot in my heart for gangly, blatant cheaters, like this.

[ohtani's jacket]

I wanted to pick something from left field for Joshi and so I chose the Ozaki/Yagi match because it's a longish Ozaki match and I'm interested in what people think of her these days, plus it's from the JWP TV run that Jerome and Todd and others loved so much, wasn't on the yearbook, and features the as ever unheralded Hiromi Yagi.

 

Man was this a pleasant surprise. Ozaki came into the match with taped ribs and the commentator mentioned it was her return bout. I don't know if her ribs were still hurting, but she sold them throughout the match and constantly had one hand clutched to her side. The limbwork Dylan mentioned was actually targeting the ribs and Ozaki sold it beautifully. This match reconfirmed for me that she really was one of the great sellers of all time. Just a beautiful seller. Yagi was in an unnatural position of being the aggressor, and I don't think it works when she takes an opponent to the outside, but on the mat the way she worked her fist into the ribs or kicked them with her feet while applying the armbar was awesome stuff, and the double stomp to the ribs was the most painful looking thing I've seen in wrestling since god knows when. Ozaki was an amazing seller. It bears repeating. I don't think she blew anything off, because her ribs were hurting her the entire time and she really didn't pull out that much offence during the stretch run. I don't think she needed to go to the dragon sleeper three times (the first time would have sufficed for me), but I understand her wanting to make sure Yagi hung on for long enough before the referee stopped the fight.

 

This was a great TV bout, I thought. It got me right back into Ozaki. I feel a bit bad nominating a match for myself, but somebody else can choose the Joshi pick next week.

[Loss]

The Joshi picks I want to make would likely feature wrestlers that I don't think have any shot of making a top 100, so that's why I haven't nominated anything yet. I want to be strategic.

[Dylan Waco]

At one point Oz was down on the mat, Yagi went up top, and Oz just casually walked over to stop her and hit a move. That ticked me off. I did think the selling was good down the stretch, but early on Yagi seemed to be targeting the arm, though maybe that was just a way to effect the ribs? Either way I wouldn't call this a transcendent Oz selling performance.

[ohtani's jacket]

Ozaki worked Yagi's arm early on, which Yagi sold extremely well, but the only time I remember Yagi putting a hold on Ozaki's arm she was kicking the ribs with her heels. I'm not sure there was enough arm work for it to even matter if it was blown off. It certainly wasn't a focus. I don't remember an Ozaki pop up, but she was clutching her ribs on everything. Transcendent is a pretty big word, but that was a great selling performance for a regular TV match. I could see a lot of people going ga ga over that if it happened in a TV match these days. But even if it didn't seem that good, you don't usually see that kind of psychology in Joshi so I thought it was great detail work.

[Dylan Waco]

I should mention that the match had a great finish that was perfect for the theme of the match

[TRMD]

Kawada & Fuchi vs Nagata & Iizuka (12.14.2000)

 

Probably unlike anyone on the board, I'm really not familiar with any of these guys work. I know their names (I listen to a LOT of podcasts) but I don't think I've ever watched any of them.

 

Anyways, I thought the first 15 or 20 minutes were rather "meh". Nothing bad, but nothing really great. From 20 minutes in until the end, though? WOW. These guys were working their asses off. I especially thought Kawada was great. Fuchi kind of reminded me of Arn Anderson. Nagata and Iizuka also brought a lot to the match.

 

Regardless, like I said, the last 15 minutes was hard hitting stuff. Something that caught my eye was how great every suplex looked. They weren't all picture perfect, but they looked way more painful than any normal back suplex has any right to look. And thats the type of stuff I like in my wrestling. Stuff that looks painful and guys selling how painful it is. Mixed in with some top notch intensity.

 

It doesn't matter to me how bland the first half is if you can give me what they gave me in the second half. This was a great match.

[Loss]

Here's something else I'd like to recommend. Follow the links for the rest. Kudo and Kandori are two wrestlers that I think should merit top 100 consideration and this match reflects well on both. Just Part 1 posted, but follow links to continue.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QugEq-Czkq4

[cheapshot]

Just today I decided I would join in with the GWE project. This thread is a great starting point for me and I am hoping to reignite my fandom to Lucha and pre 80s Euro.

[Matt D]

I am really looking forward to seeing that Veidor match.

[NintendoLogic]

The Veidor/Davies postmatch is absolutely hilarious. "HERE'S YOUR BELT!" Hahahaha.

[cheapshot]

I'm keen to get other people's views on Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78), since I dropped 5 stars on it, and feel like it's up there in terms of "beyond wrestling-ness" with Magnum and Tully. Winged Eagle didn't like it as much as me but still gave it ****1/4. I suspect most people have watched it before at some point or other, but it's not a bad place to start for a re-evaluation of at least three of the guys involved. Career performances from Dory and Sheik, and possibly also Abdullah. For some reason the 79 match gets a lot of the press (it is also awesome), but I thought 9/19/78 is one of the best matches I've seen in years. Struck a chord with me.

 

I dunno if we're on different pages in terms of what we look for in a match, but I didn't really enjoy this. I do think from a live perspective this would have been awesome though. I thought that the over use of foreign objects in a straight match takes something away from my enjoyment. I may need re-education to AJPW referring in the 70's - do they basically do the same as the AJW referees in the 80's in terms of pretty much anything goes?

[JerryvonKramer]

 

I'm keen to get other people's views on Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78), since I dropped 5 stars on it, and feel like it's up there in terms of "beyond wrestling-ness" with Magnum and Tully. Winged Eagle didn't like it as much as me but still gave it ****1/4. I suspect most people have watched it before at some point or other, but it's not a bad place to start for a re-evaluation of at least three of the guys involved. Career performances from Dory and Sheik, and possibly also Abdullah. For some reason the 79 match gets a lot of the press (it is also awesome), but I thought 9/19/78 is one of the best matches I've seen in years. Struck a chord with me.

I dunno if we're on different pages in terms of what we look for in a match, but I didn't really enjoy this. I do think from a live perspective this would have been awesome though. I thought that the over use of foreign objects in a straight match takes something away from my enjoyment. I may need re-education to AJPW referring in the 70's - do they basically do the same as the AJW referees in the 80's in terms of pretty much anything goes?

 

70s AJPW is usually pretty straight-laced with clean breaks and shaking of hands, as per the longer matches featuring Jumbo, Billy Robinson, Baba and others. You don't get that much rulebreaking, and when you do it will be subtle stuff like one guy dumping another one out of the ring rather than locking up.

 

The weapon usage in the Abby-Sheik matches is all illegal, but if you watch carefully, they conceal it maserfully. They work in such a way that the ref can never see what's going on but the crowd can. Just through body positioning, hiding the object, distraction, riling up the other guy on the outside, and so on. ABCs of heel tag wrestling. Personally, I think it's really world class heeling, and great psychology which got them very over with a crowd that is not often predisposed to boo. Incidentally, I think the official ruling on that match is a DQ for the Funks, who had been pushed to extremes by all of this.

 

It's all cool though, I don't expect everyone to like the same things. You can see my review linked above for what I liked about it.

[Matt D]

 

70s AJPW is usually pretty straight-laced with clean breaks and shaking of hands, as per the longer matches featuring Jumbo, Billy Robinson, Baba and others. You don't get that much rulebreaking, and when you do it will be subtle stuff like one guy dumping another one out of the ring rather than locking up.

 

Honest question: is this true when we look at whole cards?

[JerryvonKramer]

 

70s AJPW is usually pretty straight-laced with clean breaks and shaking of hands, as per the longer matches featuring Jumbo, Billy Robinson, Baba and others. You don't get that much rulebreaking, and when you do it will be subtle stuff like one guy dumping another one out of the ring rather than locking up.

Honest question: is this true when we look at whole cards?

 

Honest answer: I don't know because almost all the 70s AJPW I've seen are matches that were selected on the AJPW Classics G+ series, which don't tend to show full cards.

 

Maybe jdw or OJ might know this.

 

Basically, the cards that had Abby and Sheik on them would have ridiculous rulebreaking in them, but all of the other matches I've seen from that promotion at that time, don't.

[ohtani's jacket]

I'm not the person to ask, but my general understanding is that bloody brawls among other workers became more common after the success of the Funks vs. Abby/Sheik feud.

[cheapshot]

 

 

I'm keen to get other people's views on Terry Funk and Dory Funk Jr vs. The Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher (9/19/78), since I dropped 5 stars on it, and feel like it's up there in terms of "beyond wrestling-ness" with Magnum and Tully. Winged Eagle didn't like it as much as me but still gave it ****1/4. I suspect most people have watched it before at some point or other, but it's not a bad place to start for a re-evaluation of at least three of the guys involved. Career performances from Dory and Sheik, and possibly also Abdullah. For some reason the 79 match gets a lot of the press (it is also awesome), but I thought 9/19/78 is one of the best matches I've seen in years. Struck a chord with me.

I dunno if we're on different pages in terms of what we look for in a match, but I didn't really enjoy this. I do think from a live perspective this would have been awesome though. I thought that the over use of foreign objects in a straight match takes something away from my enjoyment. I may need re-education to AJPW referring in the 70's - do they basically do the same as the AJW referees in the 80's in terms of pretty much anything goes?

 

70s AJPW is usually pretty straight-laced with clean breaks and shaking of hands, as per the longer matches featuring Jumbo, Billy Robinson, Baba and others. You don't get that much rulebreaking, and when you do it will be subtle stuff like one guy dumping another one out of the ring rather than locking up.

 

The weapon usage in the Abby-Sheik matches is all illegal, but if you watch carefully, they conceal it maserfully. They work in such a way that the ref can never see what's going on but the crowd can. Just through body positioning, hiding the object, distraction, riling up the other guy on the outside, and so on. ABCs of heel tag wrestling. Personally, I think it's really world class heeling, and great psychology which got them very over with a crowd that is not often predisposed to boo. Incidentally, I think the official ruling on that match is a DQ for the Funks, who had been pushed to extremes by all of this.

 

It's all cool though, I don't expect everyone to like the same things. You can see my review linked above for what I liked about it.

 

 

This is where we differ, I thought they did conceal it, but not masterfully at all, I thought it was really contrived. Let's imagine this was real for a second, do you not think anyone with a modicum of intelligence who was referring would of worked out that it's not normal to be busted open as easily as the Funks where? I do like to suspend my disbelief in matches but to me this was a bridge too far.

[JerryvonKramer]

A lot of the 1970s AJPW undercards feature guys who would hang around them for years like Fuchi and Kimura, who worked fairly clean.

 

A young Onita is on almost every card as well. I'd be interested to know how he worked in those days. I'd imagine he wasn't working death matches, but it's interesting to know that he was there when the Abby/ Sheik matches were happening.

 

Guys like Texas Red (Red Bastien) and The Destroyer (Dick Beyer) are on a lot of cards as well. I can't remember seeing a single Texas Red match from Japan. The G+ classics tend to feature the "big name" guys, so Jumbo, Baba, The Funks etc. are all very well documented, but (for example) there's not a single undercard Onita match from the 70s on them.

[ohtani's jacket]

Onita was a junior heavyweight in those days not a death match worker.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is where we differ, I thought they did conceal it, but not masterfully at all, I thought it was really contrived. Let's imagine this was real for a second, do you not think anyone with a modicum of intelligence who was referring would of worked out that it's not normal to be busted open as easily as the Funks where? I do like to suspend my disbelief in matches but to me this was a bridge too far.

Yes, I guess we do differ. The sheer outrageousness of the villainy was part of my real enjoyment. As I said somewhere, they were like Dick Dastardly and Mutley. The fact that the cheating is so blatant and they are still getting away with it, adds to the overall sense of injustice. EVERYONE can see it, but the ref can't. But think of times when you're watching sport when it feels like everyone in the entire stadium has seen the penalty and the ref gives a goal kick. It does happen.

 

What's funny is that the ref keeps on checking to see if the object is there, and they simply switch up and pass it to their partner. Let's say the ref's checking Sheik, he'll hand it off to Abby. And then even then while the ref's back is turned, Abby will have the cheek to use the object again. The push it to the extreme limits of cheating -- as I've said, in an environment where they are used to clean breaks.

 

It's not difficult to see how The Sheik was able to cause riots. I've seen Lawler do this stuff, but I think Sheik does the best foreign object work I've ever seen in those matches.

[cheapshot]

I do understand why yourself and others would enjoy this due to what you described above. You've explained it well as to why this match has great foreign object work but I guess it's not for me. File under horses for courses.

[KrisZ]

When the IWE guys (Inoue, Tsurumi, Hara, Rusher, etc) came in it started changing then Tiger Jeet Singh came over along with Sheik's success.

[dawho5]

Pierroth Jr vs. Mogur (1/12/90)

 

Really good match. Pierroth's cheating can't win him the first fall, as Mogur really ups the ante with a big powerbomb for the 3. Pierroth heels it up by continuously rolling into and out of the ring to buy himself time. Mogur is working the back of the head/neck, which Pierroth is selling so well. Pierroth catches Mogur with a backwards headbutt to the groin while trapped in a neck figure 4. That leads to the inevitable win for Pierroth in fall 2 and now it's Mogur's turn to take a powder. But he's back in after just one time to the floor and the ending is a nice sequence of counters, some of them really gritty elbows and knees to break up submission holds. Liked this match a lot.

 

Steve Veidor vs. Gwyn Davies (5/26/76)

 

This is absolutely incredible. Davies as the heel is tremendous, picking his spots perfectly to sneak in the cheating and piss off the crowd. Viedor is perfectly good in his role, but it's Davies who makes this match great. I love how he gets increasingly pissed off when Viedor makes his comebacks and finds ways to get nastier. This is the kind of wrestling that is right up my alley.

 

Bull Nakano vs. Devil Masami (04-18-1993)

 

Early is pretty good back and forth. Masami getting a bunch of big-seeming nearfalls right after the floor brawling seemed wrong. Nakano working over Masami on the comeback was the best part of the match. Nearfalls at the end were really excessive and overdone. Least favorite match of the 3.