Big Sexy sounds off

Loss · April 3, 2005

Nash's audio clip summary, from what I can gather:

On Benoit and Guerrero -- Said there are two qualities every headliner must have - men want to be 'em and women want to fuck 'em. Said he loved the work they both did, but it was like watching a porno with a guy with a four-inch cock. Said they couldn't really be headliners because women weren't attracted to them and men may have respected them, but not in a larger-than-life way where they wanted to be like them. Says he does regret using the term "vanilla midgets", though, and respects the hell out of them.

On Chris Jericho -- Called him a great worker. Said Jericho is too vocal to the creative team, and they get pissed at him and fuck him over as revenge, which is why he never gets pushed. Said Jericho is not afraid to say, "Your writing sucks." Said that happened in WCW and that still happens in WWE. "Chris is the most over guy who never gets pushed" were Nash's exact words. Says he wanted to be Diesel with Jericho in the same way he was with Michaels, and that they could have gotten three years out of it had they done it, but that the idea was turned down.

sek69 · April 3, 2005

I always thought Hogan not putting over Sting after one of the best buildups in wrestling history was the moment where WCW went down the toilet. Everyone points to the Fingerpoke of Doom, but that was just two guys using the Ego Dildo on each other where the Hogan/Sting thing pretty much killed Sting's character by having him job after being built up as an Undertaker-style unstoppable force.

Nash makes a good punching bag because he used to take snarky shots at smark favorites (vanilla midgets) and was friends with people who booked themselves to the top. I certainly don't think he's innocent but as soon as Hogan jumped to WCW you could see the entire promotion bend to catering to his every whim no matter if it hurt the company.

April 5, 2005

Nash was an awful worker, a terrible draw, and a smarmy wrestler to boot. This interview just confirms how delusional he is. The facts that he twists things around to turn in his favor (his matches layout) is laughable.

April 5, 2005

When is the second part coming out?

goodhelmet · April 5, 2005

The Torch is released weekly and theinterviews usually span several issues. We'll prolly be finished with the interview in a month's time.

Loss · April 14, 2005

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 2

Originally Published: April 16, 2005

Torch Newsletter #857

Kevin Nash, one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry, is now a headliner with TNA. In this, the second installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about his early years in wrestling, his early influences including Jody Hamilton and Rick Rude, his first impressions of WCW, a story about Dusty Rhodes presenting him with the Oz gimmick, and the Vinnie Vegas character that first got him noticed. As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including his jump to the WWF, his jump to WCW, the success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permiated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, his thoughts on the Bret Hart Survivor Series Swerve, and much more.

Wade Keller: How did you go about being trained to be a professional wrestler?

Kevin Nash: I checked around and people told me that Jody Hamilton had a school and I went down and the first night I went there for a tryout. They did the old school deal where you pay 1,500 bucks for a tryout. They make you do a thousand Hindus, a thousand step-ups, a thousand push-ups, run the ropes for a week and a half, and have a couple of guys stretch you, and make you go home and take your 1,500 bucks. When it came time for the stretching part, I had made it through everything. With bad knees and all, I did a thousand Hindus, I did my step ups, I did my push-ups. It got to the point where it was time to get stretched. They had a little shooter pulling on me. I got my left hand loose and hit him about three times in the face because I figured if we're shootin', we're shootin'. I got a hand loose and busted the guy open. The guy rolled out and said, "F--- this." They said, "Okay, we'll see you on Monday." Jody said to me, "You got heart, kid." I went to school the next Monday. When everyone else was doing Hindus, I started doing them. He pulled me aside and started talking about psychology immediately. Jody pulled me aside. Everybody who goes to wrestling school gets smartened up about eight months in. I got smartened up the first day in. He told me about the Kentuckians and the heat they had. He laid it out, how they got the heat. He basically gave me a psychology-work ethic backwards, which is probably my downfall in life (laughs) because my psychology is way better than my work. But basically, the thing was, he'd always say, Ox Baker could talk a house in from a million miles away and people would pay 20 bucks to get the f--- out. He could talk the talk, he couldn't walk the walk. But Jody was a great teacher. The thing was, man, Jody was huge. He was way over 300 pounds. He'd get in that ring and start moving around. I had nothing but respect for him because he was probably in his mid-50s when he trained me and he could still motor in that ring, he could still throw a hell of a working punch. It wasn't do as I say, not as I do. Dwayne Bruce was there, and Dwayne was a solid worker. Sarge (Dwayne Bruce) was a solid worker, but he was never big enough. So Dwayne was the guy I worked with on a day-to-day basis. I think that was good too because I learned the lay the sh-- in. Coming out of the chute, if you're sh--'s f--in' weak, you're sh--'s weak. You're better off being a cement mixer and nobody wants to work with you than come out and look like a f---in' c--t. So that was Jody's philosophy. And Dwayne f---in' laid his sh-- in and we worked snug down there. There were a lot of nights that you got a sh-- knocked out of you. He lays clotheslined in. I'd get up at 8 o'clock, go to the gym, I'd work a ten hour shift at the strip joint because I switched to day shift, and come 8 o'clock or 9 o'clock at night, I'd drive 20 miles down to Lovejoy, Georgia to a little hut that was half a wrestling school, and the other half sold carpet remnants. No air conditioning, no heat, and for nine months I went down there five nights a week and bounced around.

Keller: What preconceptions did you have about what it would take and what were you surprised when you started going through the process?

Kevin Nash as Oz (photo by Wade Keller, PWTorch)

Nash: Because it's a work, it's not like - I try telling people who ask what makes pro wrestling so tough that it's the hardest thing I've ever done. In baseball you either hit a ball or don't hit a ball. In basketball you either hit the shot or you don't hit the shot. This is a situation where you tell Barry Bonds, "Okay, you have to knock the ball out of the park, but you can't actually touch the ball." You have convince me that you're killing each other, but because especially when I broke in you worked 300 days a year, you have to look like you're killing the guy on every move you do, night in and night out, except you can't touch the guy because you have to work 23 straight days. Man, it's one of those deals where either the light bulbs comes on in this business or it doesn't. My first match was live in Asheville, N.C. at the Clash of Champions. My partner jumped off the top rope and missed a headbutt by four feet. I heard us lose the people (laughs). It didn't take Harley Race to go, "Brother, you lost the people." I knew right then we lost them. And they'd start chanting "LOD wanna bes" and I said, "We're f---ed. We're dead. This is a dead gimmick." It's like Oz. When I walked in to St. Petersburg that day and they handed me the Oz gimmick, I said to myself, "All right, they're running me out of the business, but that's okay because I've got a guaranteed deal. F--- it. I'll do what I can with it."

Keller: How did the Oz gimmick come about? Did you have any input on it?

Nash: Nothing. I walked into Dusty's office. This was a conversation I've said a million times, but it's classic if you know Dusty. He said, (imitating Dusty), "You will be Oz, baby." I said, "What do you mean I'm going to be Oz." He said, "You know, like the Wizard of Oz." I said, "Well, Dusty, Oz is a geographical region." He said (enthusiastically), "No, you're the guy behind the curtain!" I said, "No, he's the Wizard of Oz. He's actually the Wizard. Oz is a geographical region, the place where they go to." He goes, "No, you Oz!" I went, "All right." So basically, I'm f---ed. (laughs)

Keller: When you started with WCW, and it was Jim Herd (as executive vice president) and Ole Anderson (as booker) basically in charge, you didn't have anything to compare it to, but what did you think? First class operation?

Nash: When I first got to WCW, it was like a bad blow job. I knew coming in. I didn't really anything out of it until they brought (Rick) Rude in. When they brought Rude in, for some reason Rude and I gravitated toward each other. It was one of those deals where Rude watched me in Centre Stage have a match and got to know me backstage and said I had that Robinsdale attitude. He saw that I didn't take no sh--. So Rude that night said to me, "Where do you live, Nash?" I said, "I live here in Atlanta." He told me he would come pick me up. He came and picked me up in his Mercedes and we partied a little bit on the way. He smartened me up to the business. He said, "I'm going to watch every match you do and I'm going to help you. You're going to be my protege. All I ask you to do is drive me home every night. I'll drive to the town, you just have to drive me home." I said, "It's a deal." That was the deal. He would watch my matches. I remember the first night, that night in Augusta, he sat back there and they put Madusa with him as his valet. He was standing there in the red robe with the curly mullet. He was walking back and forth with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth with a two inch ash. He was walking back and forth blowing smoke out of his nose. He takes a big drag and they're playing his music. He drops his cigarette, puts it out with his boot, and walks through the curtain. He stands there when the spotlight's on him and blows the smoke through his nose like a dragon, walks to the ring, and I went, "F--in' is he the man or what?" Rude went out there and he did great spots where he'd stop and make the babyface do a comedy spot. Then he'd stop him, snag on his back, and turn the people completely the opposite way where suddenly this is the realist thing I've ever seen. They'd be, "F--- you, Rick Rude!" And f--in' Rude would do those crazy great ass bumps, give the best f---in' feed of a heel probably ever in the business besides Triple H, and whatever the finish was. I watched it, and I saw that formula night in and night out. At that point WCW wasn't entertaining. Rude was the first guy who got it, that it was sports entertainment, you had to entertain the people. It's not armdrag, armdrag, dropdown, get it again dawg. It ain't that. It's f---in' entertainment. He was the first one who changed the profile or the personality of WCW. I think people emulated him. Shortly after Jake (Roberts) came in, and those two guys basically changed things.

I remember one night in Tallahassee, Jake had Nikita (Koloff) slam him like twenty times in a row. Nikita was so blown up. Nikita wasn't selling for anybody those days, and Jake was so smart, he told him to slam him again and again and again and again. He'd ask him how blown up he was, then told him, "Now sell my sh--y jabs! You're mine, bitch." (laughs) I watched that and learned from Jake and Rude that you have to control that environment. As soon as you do that, there's no nerves, you never blow up. People ask, "Aren't you worried about blowing up, you haven't worked in six month?" You can't blow me up. I work too f--in' slow. I don't work your pace. I can't work your pace, you work mine. I remember I was in the business three or four years. I was working with Scorpio. We had a match that was kinda the sh--s and he said, "Dude, you gotta pick it up." I said, "You don't understand, man, I'm all f---in' beat up. I said, "I can't work your speed, you have to work mine. You have no choice." The only time I've ever had great matches is when guys that I worked with can create movement. Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Triple H, and I thought I had a really good match with Jeff (Jarrett) the other week. Jeff can create movement. I could f---in' have a great match with Sean Waltman. Anybody who can create movement and the illusion that I'm moving besides swinging, ducking, dropping you over me - as long as there's an illusion there. I knew that from day one. Scott Hall could do that. Scott is probably the greatest big-man worker ever in the business, to me. I've watched (Bruiser) Brody tapes, I've watched (Stan) Hansen tapes. I've watched every f---in' match those guys have had. They weren't at Scott's caliber. They couldn't have had that ladder match. Nobody six-foot-six, 275 can work like Scott Hall.

I have some pictures here. I live by myself on the beach. I have very few photos of the boys, but I have a black and white photo somebody took of the first night Scott and I and (Eric) Bischoff were together, June of 1996. I've got a picture of me, Shawn (Michaels), and Triple H at his wedding. I've got a picture of me and Triple H from his wedding. And then I've got a picture from Berlin of the Clique. And that's basically all the wrestling photos I have. Oh, I've got a picture of me and (Steve) Austin, too, because Steve's a real close friend of mine. That's about all I?ve got. I look back at my career, there's a lot of guys I've respected, a lot of guys that I pay homage to, but it's always been the Clique, Steve Austin, and Take (Undertaker). I've always had a real closeness with Take. I had a real good relationship with those Natural Born Thrillas guys, like (Mark) Jindrak and guys like that. It was kind of fun to give them the Rude treatment, kind of teach them how the business runs.

Kevin Nash as Oz (photo by Wade Keller, Torch editor)

Keller: When you first got to WCW, did you have to pay dues? Did you have to go through any kind of initiation?

Nash: You know what, it was one of those deals, I think because of what I was, I was a pretty well-known bouncer. There were a lot of fights and the guys at clubs would pay me a couple hundred bucks to break up fights. I was pretty heavy-handed and back then you could beat the f--- out of people. Growing up in Detroit, I've been fighting since I was six years old. I'm not afraid to fight. To this day, I'll fight tomorrow, I'll fight anybody. I don't give a sh--. Worst case scenario in a fight is they can kill you. The second-worst scenario is they can beat your ass. The third-worst scenario is you can beat the f--- out of them and they can press charges. I was a big f---in' guy and I've always had a good sense of humor, I've always been kind of the locker room comedian. At the same time, if you f-- with me, I don't give a f--- if you're the World Champion, I'll punch you in the face. I'll take you into the f---in' showers and I'll wait until you soap your head up and you're bent over and I'll punch you in the side of the head. There's a respect to being six-ten and 340 and then guys go to the gym and watch you incline 405 for twelve reps and they go, "F---, you're a big, strong motherf--- who moves pretty good." My deal was anytime I got into a fight with a normal human being, I'd ask, "When's the last time you fought a six-ten, 320 pound guy who was in shape and knows how to fight? Ever! Go ahead and think about it because let me tell you something, when you say f---in' stop, I ain't stoppin'. I'm not that f---in' guy. I'm the guy that will kick you until I break my shins, until you get underneath a f---in' engine block. I'm that guy. I think that translates. I think when you're a f---in' heel and you work with people, you have that prick gear. Scott Hall had the gear. Shawn Michaels had the gear. You have to have the ability to change gears when you actually get heat on somebody. I think Disco Inferno is a great worker, but he never had the ability to shift gears. He never had the ability to make people think he was a nasty mother f---er. And Glenn could do everything else. You could beat Glenn every night of the week and he'd stay over, he just can't turn gears. That's one of my things that I want to do. Everything can be taught in life. The saying is you can't teach a new dog old tricks. That's bullsh--. You have to have the patience to teach that dog the trick. Anything can be taught in life. You can take an 85 year old woman and teach her Latin if she wants to learn it. To me, you have to have a certain prick element to get over in this business. People would always say to me, "Scott Levy, Raven, I don't like him." I said, "That's why it works, that's why he has heat. Because he's not real likable." I love him. I love him. I think the fact that they've bastardized his character in the last couple of months has drove me crazy. He is one of the few. He's iconic to a different degree than most of the people are. Okay, if I took over the book over next week, next pay-per-view it's a hardcore match, Dustin (Rhodes) vs. Raven, best of luck. Raven splits you f--in' open and beats you to death with a trash can lid. That's what that angle needs. Raven is a guy who was with me back in the day. We went up and down the road together. He loves the business. There's few guys who love it as much as Scotty does. To me, it's one of those deals where you look at it and say, "Scotty, I've been to Mount Olympus and you stood next to me; you were there. You didn't have to be there, you didn't have to have a belt on you. When I look at our era of guys, you're there."

Keller: He calls himself the last of the true territory guys.

Nash: And he was. I watched ECW because of him. To me, people can say what they want to about ECW, but there were never greater finishes than on their TV. I mean, they were so multi-layered, they were like the Japan finishes, but with an American twist. They were great. I'd love it because a guy would get chopped like with a 25-automatic, hit with a dinosaur, kick out, kick out, caught on fire, kick out, and then schoolboy, 1-2-3. It was classic. You'd be at home going, "Ohh, that ain't it! Ohh, that ain't it!? What? That's it? Schoolboy? F--, you got me!" You can say what you want to about Paul E., but his sh-- was as innovative and as important to that genesis as the NWO and Austin and McMahon was. Those were the three synergies that kind of pushed the platelets together and formed this giant volcano that became pro wrestling and then basically exploded in '99 and died. All those factors were huge in doing so.

Keller: People first started noticing you when you were doing the radio show in Atlanta with Jim Ross as Vinnie Vegas. That was your chance to kind of show your personality and wit because Oz didn't do it, Master Blaster didn't do it. Did you know that you were onto something then or were you just having fun?

Nash: Jim would have me on and the thing was, I've been able to get ass just by making girls laugh. I mean, that was always my thing, wow, the big funny guy. That was kind of my deal. I've been the class clown since I was six years old. My son comes home and says he got in trouble. He had the whole class laughing and he's crackin' jokes, and I'm like, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. My son's comedic timing is great. There are times he'll have me belly laughing. He's eight years old and he'll have my belly laugh. To me, I've always said, and not to be redundant because it's been quoted a million times, but I can't remember a time in my life I was laughing and having a bad time. Ross and I always had a good relationship.

Keller: Getting Ross to laugh was a challenge for you.

Nash: Yes, and I could get him to laugh. The thing was, I would badger guys who were higher up on the food chain than I was. I wasn't afraid to make fun of guys.

Keller: You were saying things he was thinking, but could never say.

Nash: He realized I didn't care. How can I care? I was getting beat every night. What were they going to do to me? Beat me more? You can't beat me more than every night. I remember when Griz (Grizzly Smith) came up to me night and said, "I want you to go over on (Brian) Pillman tonight. What's your finish?" I said, "F---in' lay on my back. I don't know. What is it?" (laughs) I didn't have a finish. He said, "How about a running shoulder block." I said, "How do you do it?" I didn't know what he was talking about. I hadn't won a match since I got there.

April 17, 2005

I didn't have a finish. He said, "How about a running shoulder block." I said, "How do you do it?" I didn't know what he was talking about. I hadn't won a match since I got there.

Strummer · April 17, 2005

he's dead on about ECW, Shane Douglas would have matches with weapon shots and brawling all over the place and then would win with a belly to belly suplex. I always thought that was incredibly unrealistic, yet I liked it at the same time

Loss · April 21, 2005

Apr 23, 2005, 04:07 PM

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 3

Originally Published: April 23, 2005

Torch Newsletter #858

Kevin Nash, one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry, is now a headliner with TNA. In this, the third installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash finishes talking about his first stint in WCW, how he lied to get out of his guaranteed contract to jump to the WWF, why he jumped to the WWF, and how he hit it off right away with Shawn Michaels. As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including the forming of The Clique in the WWF, his jump to WCW, the success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, his thoughts on the Bret Hart Survivor Series Swerve, and much more.

Wade Keller: When you first started getting attention as Vinnie Vegas, did you start feeling a little more comfortable in the ring at that point, or was your confidence shot that you were going to be a big jobber forever?

Nash: I actually had a decent match on a PPV with (Van) Hammer. Do you remember that? I had a decent match and the thing was we were going around on the B-towns. The A-towns were doing their thing, and at the B-towns it was the Hollywood Blondes, Pillman & Austin, versus Shane (Douglas) and (Rick) Steamboat. Me vs. Hammer was semi-main. So we're doing like 20, 25 minutes a night. There were only six matches on the card, so we really had to put time in. People can say what they want to about Mark (Hammer), but we actually worked a decent match. We were able to go 20 minutes and actually get some false finishes and actually have the people's attention. I was travelling with Austin and Brian and (Bill) Dundee. We were driving up and down the road together. Austin always had incredible insight. Brian had incredible insight. But Dundee was one of those few Memphis guys who actually would share the f---in' knowledge. A guy like (Jerry) Lawler would say, "You gotta learn on your own, kid." Okay, f-- it, I'm gonna be stiffin' you, mother f---er." Dundee shared the knowledge. I remember, and I want to say this because I want it to be in print somewhere, when I first broke in, my first match was working against Tim Horton and Mike Rotunda. I went out, me and my first partner, Cory Pindarvis, that was before Al Greene. The guy lasted a f---in' week as my Master Blaster partner. I remember Rotunda, my partner was stiffin' the f-- out of him and hurting him. We had this laid out match that we did at the Clash of the Champions. We went over it a hundred times with Brad and Tim at the camp. So we get to Canton, Ohio, and it's Tim and Rotunda and we've got nothing laid out, and this is back in the day when the locker rooms are opposite sides of the building and you've got to send the referee back and forth (to communicate the match finish). Just bullsh--. Come on. "Brother, it's a work, but we're not going to smarten each other up on it." So the referee is running back and forth and they're f---ing with us because we're getting a push and they're pissed because they're putting us over, so they're not smartening us up. So all we get is the finish. We have no spots or nothing. I get out there and it's, "Oh, f--, man!" So I locked up with f--in' Mike and Mike says, "Can you f---in' listen?" I said, "I think so." He said (really quickly and quietly): "Tackle dropdown." I said (really loudly and deliberately sounding like the Cookie Monster), "I tackle YOU? Who tackles WHO!" He said, "Shut the f--- up!" Then I realized I am a f---ing green horn. Every night Mike would put a spot together with me and the spots would grow night after night. We would have two spots, then three spots, then four spots. By the fifth night in Hammond, me and him had a nice little exchange back and forth that Mike taught me. The last night Mike said, "Slam me, drop an elbow." I dropped this sh--y f---n' elbow that about cut him in half. He went, "F--- that. Meet me at Centre Stage on Tuesday." He met me there at 11 o'clock and I swear to God, Mike Rotunda let me drop 200 elbows on him. You don't forget that sh-- in your life. That's a guy who if his wife called me tomorrow and said Mike needs a kidney and our blood matches, wherever he needed it, boy, I'd be there. There are a few of those guys.

When Lex (Luger) was making huge money and nobody else was making money, Lex always picked up the tabs at dinner. You never forget that. Lex always picked up the tabs. Two hundred bucks at Morton's. "I got it guys, I got it." Now when he needs a hand and needs a friend, nobody's there for him. That's the sh-- that's f---ed up.

Kevin Nash (photo by Jerry Wilson, PWTorch)

Keller: Had you befriended Dallas Page by this point?

Nash: Dallas's opening day was the Oz gimmick. They had a problem with the mic and he said, "Aww, f--- this" on TV when Diamond Studd was just Scott Hall.

Keller: You had a number of people around you that you were learning from. Was there a feeling also that there were a lot of people around who saw it as anything that you learned could hurt them?

Nash: I knew when I came in the door that it was one of those deals where there were people thinking there's this good looking guy with a good body and he's bigger than I am, so f--- smartening him up. Back then, when you came to WCW, it was nepotism. Dusty (Rhodes) was booking and he had his Florida crew there.

Keller: Were you studying not just how to be a better wrestler, but also the booking aspects of the business? Was that something that fascinated you and caught your interest early on or did that come later?

Nash: I would always watch a show and think, that finish was okay, but if you would have done this it would have been better. Early on I was a pretty good finish guy. But I think that's because Jody Hamilton said you can go 60 minutes and have the best match in the world, but you f--- the finish up and the match will be the sh--s. He said you could have a 60 minute stinker, but if the last three minutes have great false finishes and a great finish, all the people will remember is the false finishes and the finish and say you had a great match. I just think God blessed me with Jody Hamilton. Jody Hamilton, if you look back at it, if you watch tapes of him working (as The Assassin), here was a guy who was really basically able to give you facials with a mask on. He would juice through the mask. If you can find some old tapes of those guys, especially with the Kentuckians, I've got a black and white of those guys from Camp Belton, Kentucky or someplace like that, it's like a high school gym, and you can see the pain underneath the mask of this guy and you can see his face underneath the mask. He was a special, special cat. I was blessed that was the guy who broke me into the business.

Keller: If you could choose just one moment that was going to be captured on the Best of Kevin Nash DVD from that era, what would it be? In the ring or out of the ring.

Nash: Honestly, if I had to have a moment, it's when they handed me that f---in' Oz costume. I picked up that dunce cap with the rubber mask on it and I said to myself, "Wow, they're really trying to f--- me." That was just one of those deals. Hulk (Hogan) couldn't get over in this gimmick. It was a case of someone going: The big tough guy wants to get in the business? F---in' survive this.

Keller: The scary part is it wasn't meant to sabotage you because of all the money they put into it. If they wanted to sabotage you, they wouldn't have spent as much money on the entrance set.

Nash: That's what I mean. There must have been a lot of good mushrooms being passed around at that time. I don't know. I looked at it and I knew the minute they looked at the costume.

Keller: How did the process work that you ended up with the WWF?

Nash: It's a great story. The Steiners had just come up there in '93. The first TV that the Steiners went to was Green Bay where Kevin Kelly said that Vince McMahon grabbed him and there was a whole f---in' deal he was choking Vince out. This is the Steiners' first TV up there. I'm Robbie's (Rick Steiner) godfather for his first son, Hudson. Robbie calls me and said, "F---, you wouldn't believe how crazy this place it!" He lays out the whole f---n' deal. He added, "By the way, I talked to Shawn Michaels. He digs your Vinnie Vegas gimmick. He thinks it's funny. He'd like you to come in and be a bodyguard. So at that point I was driving a lot with (Barry) Windham to and from towns. There was a show at Fort Lindalwood at the Army Base and nobody showed up and we got there early. Me and Barry drove from Atlanta. It was an all-day drive and Barry and I drinking like Crown Royals and beers and sh--. We got there and thought we shouldn't be drinking, but he's on top so I'm going to drink. He was office, too, at the time. We get there and there's nobody there but me and Barry, so me and Barry have to open the show. Barry says to me, "Can you listen?" I said, "Talk slow." We went out there and had a really good match. Barry was the first guy who got out there and kind of worked my pace. Instead of talking sh--, he asked how's my wind, can you do this, do you know what I'm calling? Windham was so talented. Remember how he used to enter the ring from the floor where he'd pounce like a panther through the ropes? It was like one solid movement - bam, he was in the ring. He was a six-foot-six, 275 pound guy. He was as good as anybody's ever been. If you were going to do an outline form of Big Guys Category, he and Scott Hall are in that top list. I had been almost in the business for three years at this point. I learned the "work" part of it and I just sat there one day. We'd always drink and have a good time.

We were going to Dalton, Georgia for TV and I didn't say anything the whole way. New York (the WWF) at that time was The Show. It was like playing for the Yankees. I said I had to get out of my contract, but I have to do it without them knowing I want to go to New York. So I didn't say anything the whole way up. He asked me, "What's wrong." I said, "Nothing." He said, "What's wrong." I said, "Nothing." We got about 200 miles into the trip and I said, "My wife's gonna leave me if I don't get out of the business." He said, "F---, you gotta get out of the business, man." He knew Ole (Anderson), who was booking (WCW) then. I asked if he thought Ole would let me out of my contract. He said, "We'll do it on Monday." So Ole, of course, was glad to do it. At that point I was Vinnie Vegas. He was eager to get rid of this mother f---er who was making 125 grand a year and ain't doin' sh--. Hell yeah, he was ready to get rid of me. He couldn't sign my notice fast enough. He signed it and I went in the back office and made a couple copies of it. I went to my house and faxed it to J.J. (Dillon, head of talent relations in the WWF at the time). J.J. said, "We'll send you a ticket. You're coming to Albany, N.Y." My first match was Albany, N.Y., I think June 6. I f---ed over Marty (Jannetty) that night in a non-title match and then I f---ed him at Raw at the Manhattan Center and Shawn got the belt. I said to myself, I've been in this company two days and I've meant more than I have in three years in the business elsewhere.

Keller: Even though Shawn didn't know you, he just had seen you, after the first time you two were on TV together, it was clear there was a chemistry there.

Nash: Oh, yeah, absolutely. We bonded. Number one, I thought he was like 5-9. I walked into the locker room and turned around and said, "Hey, Shawn, I'm Kevin Nash." He turned around and stood up and was like six-one-a-half and he went (deep voice), "Hey!" I'm like, what the f---, that voice didn't just come out of you. You gottabme sh--in' me. And we drove that night and I guess it's one of those deals where he had watched my sh-- and I watched his sh-- and we drove back from Albany to Stamford and it was, like, I was a fan of his stuff and he actually liked my Vinnie Vegas stuff. He put my stuff over and we became friends. It was an instant chemistry between us. And the thing was, Shawn ain't stupid. He knows who's going to mesh with him. He's not going to pull just anybody in. They (WCW) were pissed when I showed up on Raw.

Keller: You lied to get out of your deal, so of course they're upset.

Nash: I think at the same time it was one of those deals where it's (singing) "Cat in the Cradle where my son grew up just like me." I remember one time, I think Dusty was the booker. He told me you can't get over. I said we have a match with (Rick) Steamboat tonight. Me and Big Sky against Steamboat and Shane Douglas. I looked at him and said, "How about I hit Steamboat with my finish about 30 seconds in and we win the tag belts. You think I'd get over then, mother f---er?" He looked at me like, "Okay, he's f---in' smart and he knows how it works. He realizes it ain't nothing but a push." F--- you, man! You don't think I know? I know, mother f---er. I've just been taking my money. There wasn't a guy in his first three years in the business who made more money. I probably made 350, 400 thousand dollars and probably worked 29 shows. I just never worked. I made 125 grand when I was doing Oz and I worked about nine times that year.

Keller: When you signed with the WWF, you signed for actually less than your WCW guarantee, obviously.

Nash: Back then when you signed with the WWF, the deal was you were guaranteed ten shows at 150 dollars a show. You were guaranteed fifteen hundred dollars. That was your guarantee with New York. I remember I went to Vince (McMahon)'s house straight off the airplane before I went to Albany. Marco the limo driver drove me to Vince's house. I knocked on the door. Vince came out with an IcoPro cut-off grey sweat shirt on and f---in' black sweat pants and to me, I'm looking at Steinbrenner. Say what you will about Vince McMahon - I love the mother f---er. He's a man's man. He shook my hand, looked me in the eye, and said, "Come on in! This is J.J., this is Pat (Patterson) and you probably heard he's gay. He is." He just laid the sh-- out in black and white. This is what we expect out of you. I walked into the door and he said, "You're a lot bigger than I thought you'd be. That's a good thing. You're a good looking guy. We can make some money with you." He said, "Get back into the car, get to Albany, we got sh-- laid out, and we're going to make you a f---in' star." I called my wife when I got to Albany that night. This was back in the day when it was pagers. I called my wife on the pay phone at the building and said, "I met Vince McMahon tonight." She said, "Really, how was he?" I said, "He was nice as f--- to me. He told me I'm going to get over." And he did. I don't care what anybody says. If it wasn't for Vince McMahon, I wouldn't be sitting out looking at the ocean right now when I'm talking to you.

Keller: What did you make your first year in the WWF?

Nash: Probably around two-ish.

Keller: Minus road expenses, which WCW covered, right?

Nash: I really don't know. My wife was a school teacher at the time. We were just living modestly. I bet my net for the year was probably 30. I met up with Scott and Shawn and we triple-heeled every night. We'd rock, paper, scissors for the rollaway. We would stay at Super 8s. We were probably spending 40 three-ways on a room and 59 on a Lincoln back then three ways. We were eatin' tuna and Denny's. Me and (Steve) Austin travelled together in WCW. I learned from him. Austin and I, it was an ongoing rib where we'd go into a town and all the top guys, Arn and the Horsemen and stuff, they'd have these Marriot towels. Me and Austin had what looked like a paper towel from a gas station. They'd ask where we were stayin'. Roger's Christmas Tree Inn. We got 19.40 for the rate. F---, we didn't give a sh--. What are you going to do? You're just stayin' the night there.

Keller: Austin learned that because he starved his first few years in the business in Memphis and Texas.

Nash: Right, and you know what, to this day, Steve is the same guy. When me and Steve were doing the "Longest Yard" (movie last year), we have a hundred dollar per day per diem, and we never spent above that hundred bucks. We went and had sushi that night after we shot all day, it'd be like, "What's that gonna cost us?" They'd say 137. "All right, that'll work." I mean, that's the thing about Steve. The reason that character worked so well as an everyman character is because that's f---in' Steve. I talk to Steve at least once, if not twice a week. Anytime that the world gets me kind of off kilter, I think we call each other for reality checks. He just wants to hear from his buddy. He knows I'm sitting here spending 30 bucks a day. He knows I hoard my money like he does. I don't spend money. There's no reason to spend money. I'm still driving a 1993 Bronco that I bought with my '93 SummerSlam check. I mean, that's just me. I don't give a f---. I'm not out for anything in life. If I get out of a car and you judge me by what I drive or what I wear, I don't want to be your friend anyway. I'm a real simple guy. I'm a cut off sweat pants, tank top, sweat pants guy.

Strummer · April 21, 2005

he said, "You're a lot bigger than I thought you'd be. That's a good thing. You're a good looking guy. We can make some money with you."

Yup that sounds like Vince all right, first impression is very important to him. Now you can see why Nash got the push he did

Loss · April 29, 2005

Torch Talk Library

Kevin Nash talks about meeting Hall, working with Michaels, wrestling Bret (04-30-05)

Apr 30, 2005, 04:59 AM

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 4

Originally Published: April 30, 2005

Torch Newsletter #859

Kevin Nash was one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry. In this, the fourth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about the formation of the famous Clique, his IC Title reign, and Bret Hart. Next week, he makes a case for why Bret Hart is better than Shawn Michaels, and why Shawn Michaels is better than Bret Hart, plus discusses the Bret-Shawn rivalry that led to the 1997 Survivor Series Swerve.

As this "Torch Talk" further progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including his jump to WCW, the success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, his thoughts on the Bret Hart Survivor Series Swerve, and much more.

Wade Keller: You immediately befriended Shawn Michaels when you got to the WWF. When did you then get close to Sean Waltman and Scott Hall? Also, were there any other people who you hung out with for a while, but didn't stick and become part of your group of friends, later dubbed The Clique?

Kevin Nash: Scott and I actually hooked up in WCW. It was one of those, like, big guy things, you know. They booked me and Scott to tag together against guys like Big Josh and someone else. Josh dropped us both on our heads on the belly-to-back suplex. We rolled out of the ring and said, "Screw this," and just walked to the back (laughs). It was really funny. The first time me and Scott travelled together, we went to Macon. He said, "Let's get some beer." So we're driving, we're talking and sh--. I'm thinking he's a cool dude. He was messing with the radio knob, and then as he was screwing with the stereo, he kind of brushed his hand on my leg. I thought that was kind of weird. Then he did it a second time, but a little bit longer. I thought, oh, f---, this dude's a f--. I slowed the card down and told him, "If you touch me again, I'm going to knock you out." He laughed and said, "I was just f--ing with you." And that was like our introduction to each other. If you know Scotty, he's a rib guy. He was just ribbing with me. He was just seeing how long it would go. About 40 seconds into it, I was ready to fight. I said this isn't going to work. He said, "No, we're cool, we're cool."

Kevin Nash as Diesel (photo by Jerry Wilson, PWTorch)

So Scott and I were friends before we left (WCW). When he went up there, when I first saw the Razor Ramon character get over, I was so proud of him. We talked a little bit. Then when I came up there, he welcomed me to the show. He and Sean (Waltman) were travelling together. Then shortly after that, they started working together. The three of us basically travelled together with the towels over our heads as we left the buildings. That was such a period for us that was like a blank canvas and three artists. I basically went out every night and had the best position in the world. I had Shawn Michaels versus Scott Hall and I was on the apron. The thing was, Shawn said instead of doing like every other bodyguard does, when you do something, it changes the course of the match. So we did a lot of spots where Scott would roll out, and I'd stalk him, and Earl (Hebner) would slide through and stop me. So we put the ref over. Then that one time when I finally got to Scott who was behind the ref's back, the heat was immense and their psychology was precise and they knew it - but as time went on, Shawn realized, f---, he's getting all of the heat. Night in, night out, Kev gets the heat. He was fine with it because he got it residually. Fans would spit hawkers on us. Shawn realized we were starting to create money heat. We worked, the three of us, in some form or fashion for basically the whole course of the time we were there. When we travelled, it was like we'd listen to music and drink beers. You couldn't smoke pot or anything back then because of the drug policy. So you could drink booze and take pills, that's all you could do. But we would talk f---in' business from the minute we got up in the morning to the gym to the tanning bed to the building and after the building at Denny's. We were talking business, highspots, and finishes. We were refining our craft 24 hours a day. There was a love for the business. My wife would be livid because I'd be on the road for 21 days and come home and talk highspots for three days on the phone with these guys. "F---ing uncle, man, you've got to be kidding me," she'd say. But when this business grinds into your bones like that and you fall in love with it, it becomes your mistress. People ask me, Who's your mistress. I say this business is my mistress. The funny thing is just as I don't think I love it anymore, then I have this match with Jeff Jarrett. Even though it's 1,500 people, at those precise moments that we want the people to do something, and they do it, you realize it's not about anything but the fact that you can still pull people's chain when you want to pull people's chain. It's the psychology. That's the beauty of this business. I can make your forget it was fake for 30 seconds. That's the beauty of what we do. It's Copperfield making the Statue of Liberty disappear.

Keller: What stood out when you first got to the WWF that made it different from WCW?

Nash: The thing was, it was a wrestling company. It was a company that all they did was wrestling. It was the Yankees. That's exactly what it was. You were in a pro wrestling company. They knew how to market it, how to shoot it. how to book it, everything. Vince used to have - we used to call it the pencil - a book that was textured like an NFL football and he'd open the book and it was like the Holy Grail. This is like June '93 and Vince was like (imitating Vince): "Well, SummerSlam '96..." (laughs). Back in the day, it was a different deal. It was such longterm planning because at that time there were four pay-per-views. My first year was when the first year King of the Ring was added to make it five.

Keller: And a big main event on TV at the time was Duke Droese vs. Phineous Godwin.

Nash: If you had Bret Hart working a title match on TV, it was once every eight months. It was a jobber match. All the Superstar and Challenge matches (on syndicated TV) were squashes against guys who couldn't work and you'd just beat the dog f--- out of 'em. Everything in the business was so different. And it was an hour. I remember when I was writing television for WCW, we had three hours of Nitro and two hours of Thunder. Next week's Thunder was taped on the same day as this week's Thunder was. So you had to write a Monday Nitro for three hours, you had to write four hours of Thunder, but you had write the Monday night show because it had to fit in between the two Thunders to make it work. So you had to basically write ten hours of TV in three days.

Keller: I think that's the number one reason things fell apart now matter who had control of the booking.

Nash: Thunder killed it. Thunder was the sh--s and when they went to three hours on Monday, it was the sh--s.

Keller: It just spread everything too thin. If everything was great and there were no problems and every character stayed hot and a brand new star came along every six months, you might have been able to keep up five hours, but five hours never worked and burned everyone out.

Nash: Immediately it diminished the product. But it's one of those deals (TBS) threw whatever it was, 40 million dollars at Eric (Bischoff) budget-wise and it was hard to say no. He said, "F--- it, I can sign more guys." We were friends with Eric, so once we found out more money was coming, we asked for raises. He said, "Well, I guess you can."

Keller: That's where Vince (McMahon) is smart with the brand split while doing two weekly two-hour shows.

Nash: Absolutely.

Keller: When you won the IC Title for the first time, was that the peak of your career at that point? Did that mean a lot to you?

Nash: God, it was Rochester, New York or Syracuse. They're both the same type of town in my brain. We did the limo drive out. There was a strip joint. It was Rochester. The sign used to say, "25 Good Looking Girls and 2 Ugly Ones and Warm Beer." That was the strip joint on the right hand side by the Super 8 where we were staying at. We stopped and had a couple of beers at the strip joint and went to the room. This was back when the belt went in your bag. You took the belt with you. I went back to my room and I was going to air my gear out like you do every night. I took my knee braces and knee pads and everything else out. My belt was at the bottom. I took the belt out. And I remember sitting on the bed at the sh--y hotel by myself and just looking at this belt and thinking, f--- man, I'm the WWF Intercontinental Champion. I've made it. If I get hit by a bullet, bolt of lightning, anything happens to me, as far as this business is concerned, when I got into it, this is more than I thought I would ever accomplish.

Keller: And to win it and lose it from Scott made it special, too.

Nash: Absolutely. And the thing was, we went in. I remember the day we laid the match out. Vince asked, "What do you guys got?" We went through that match nine-hundred times. Vince looked at us and smiled. I remember one time when we were somewhere up in Canada and Vince came in and said, "A lot of guys are saying if this Clique continues to go on, they're going to f---in' quit. I need to ask you guys one question." We're like, "Yeah?" He said, "How do I get in?" We said, "F---, you're in, you love the business." He said, "Yeah, f--- them!" That was the whole thing. Vince knew we lived, died, breathed it. The business is what we wanted at that point in our lives. I know the first time I worked Madison Square Garden in '93, the house was 86,000 dollars. The last night I worked three years later against Shawn (Michaels) in the cage in the main event, it was sold out it to with 309,000 dollars. It was the largest house we had ever had there that was non-pay-per-view. People will say throughout my career that I never drew a dime. You know what, f--- you. You know what, we put asses in the seats. And you want to give it to Shawn only, fine. You can give it to Shawn as long as he drew because some say he never drew. But somebody drew that f---ing night. You know?

Keller: When did you cross paths with Bret Hart during this first WWF run, and what was your opinion of his in-ring style compared to others you had worked with. Did you respect him right away?

Nash: Bret was real different. He was real quiet. Bret had his psychology, but the thing is, I had great matches with Bret Hart. Bret Hart looked at things in comic book form, he looked at things in almost a movie form, like there was a first, second, and third stage of everything he did, then there was the finish. So if you worked twenty minutes with him, you basically had five minute segments. The first time I worked with him, I dropped the belt to him in Washington D.C. at the Cap Center. When I dropped it to him that night, I didn't give a f-- (about losing the title) because I knew the match was going to be so good. We used a chair, which we hadn't used forever. I pushed him off of the apron. He went through a table, which was I think the first time anybody went through the scorer's table. Bret was really innovative and Bret's sh-- was solid. He'd hammer you out there. His psychology was good. There was never a night where I went out there with Bret that I felt we even had to talk. We could look at each other in the locker room and nod and call it in the ring. To me that's the greatest feeling out there, to go out there with a guy who can work without a net. When I came back off of my quad injury and I was put against Triple H, f---, working against Paul (Levesque) every night, ohhh! I could go out to the ring, lock up, and ask him how long are we going tonight. There's no reason to plan it out. It makes life so simple because the only time you have to think about wrestling is the 20 minutes you're out there in the ring.

goodhelmet · April 30, 2005

Loss, do you know how many installments they plan on having?

Loss · April 30, 2005

10+, I do believe. The interview conducted was six hours long.

Loss · May 6, 2005

Torch Talk Library

Kevin Nash compares Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, Survivor Series Swerve (05-03-05)

May 7, 2005, 06:27 PM

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 5

Originally Published: May 7, 2005

Torch Newsletter #860

Kevin Nash was one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry. In this, the fifth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about why Bret Hart is better than Shawn Michaels, and why Shawn Michaels is better than Bret Hart, plus discusses the Bret-Shawn rivalry that led to the 1997 Survivor Series Swerve, his thoughts on the Survivor Series Swerve, and the reaction within the WWF at the time when Hulk Hogan signed with WCW for the first time. Next week, Nash talks about getting to know Triple H.

As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including his jump to WCW, the formation and success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, and much more.

Wade Keller: The comparisons will be made forever between Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels. You've worked with both. If somebody were going to make a case for why Bret was better than Shawn, what would the number one reason be? And then what is the number one reason Shawn is better than Bret?

Kevin Nash: To me Shawn Michaels is (Michael) Jordan. He is Jordan. He is in a different class. Shawn was a much, much, much better athlete than Bret was. So take that equation out. It's kind of like saying who was better, Magic (Johnson) or (Larry) Bird. That's kind of what you've got when you come down to it. Magic was the better athlete. Bird won more. I personally think that Shawn is the greatest as far as people I've touched. When you touched him, it was like? It was in the turnbuckle and you threw him and you kind of said, "Hey, do that thing you do," and he just kind of made you. You'd send him off and he'd do some crazy flip over and land in the fourth row thing and people would go ohh-ahh. Shawn had that ability, and Bret didn't have that ability. But at the same time, Bret was artistic, he had his psychology, his love for the business, and his love for his gimmick and his devotion to the Hitman. There was a devotion and a clarity to the character and there was no diversion from that. You wrestled the Hitman, you didn't wrestle Bret Hart. Shawn was a lot more pliable as far as character-wise, and I think the Hitman was probably a stronger personality in the ring. I loved working with Bret. I mean, if I had to pick five of my best matches, Bret would be one of them. That one when I dropped the belt to him, that was it. The next night in Norfolk, we told Vince we can't work because we beat the f--- out of each other and gave it all last night, there's nothing left.

Keller: How surprised were you when you found out you'd be getting the quick title win over Bob Backlund right after Backlund beat Bret?

Nash: It's funny because we were over in Europe. It was one of those deals back then you could go to Europe for 21, 23 days in a row. Me and Shawn and Scott had drunk all night long and basically drank onto the bus that next day and we got to like Hamburg or someplace and we were hammered. I mean, we were hammered. We worked the match. I worked against Fatu that night. It stank because I was hammered. I got out of the ring and one of the agents told me I had to call Vince ASAP. I said, "Aw, f---!" (laughs) I thought I was going to get fired for getting all f---ed up. He told me to come out to the house on Friday after I got back (to the States). I'm thinking I'm in big trouble. So I went out to the house and he starts laying sh-- out, blah blah blah, and then goes, "and then we're giving you the strap." I said, "I've got the strap." He said, "No, I'm talking about the World strap." I just sat there for a minute and thought, "Did he just say that I'm going to be the World Champion?" I thought maybe it was a work. So I did the no-sell and said (calmly), "Okay, that'll work." As soon as we finished our conversation, I got back to my hotel and called my wife and I said, "You're not going to believe this. In November, I'm going to go over Backlund for the belt in the Garden on a house show!"

Keller: How far in advance were you told this?

Nash: This was probably June, July.

Keller: So he knew that long ahead what he was going to do?

Nash: That's the thing about the business back then, you knew way ahead.

Keller: So Backlund was going to get the Iron Sheik treatment all along. He was the transition guy.

Nash: Yeah, he was the transition guy, but at the same time, he had some really decent heat.

Keller: He was strange, but in a way where you couldn't really turn away.

Nash: Right, exactly.

Keller: Any backstage stories about Backlund? Did he act nuts off camera?

Nash: I remember one time he was staying in Europe in the room next to me. I heard this banging against the wall all night and I was thinking, "Wow, somebody's getting their groove on." It was about five o'clock in the morning, it woke me up. So I looked on the list, because back then they used to have a list. I said, "F---in' Backlund?!?!" So we got on the bus and I asked Bob, "What were you doing this morning?" He said, "Arghh. I was doing step-ups on a chair in my room." I was like, "Okay, that makes sense!" (laughs) Nobody could go that long having sex. He went two hours doing step-ups. I remember working with him when we did a rematch in Sacramento. He grabbed me and said, "Piledriver!" I said, "What?" He just snatched me. He was so strong. I had never been piledriven in my life. I was on the ground before I knew what was happening. I was thinking to myself, f---, I'm 300 pounds and this mother f---er just picked me up and piledrived me and I didn't have nothin' to say about it. I couldn't say, "Wait a minute. Whoa! Stop!" He was that f---in' strong. I remember he gave Shawn an ass bump one night on Raw, I think we were in Poughkepsie or White Plains, one of the two, and Kamala was involved in the match. He gave Shawn an ass bump, and he was so strong he about threw Shawn on his head over his back because Shawn went up so easy and Backlund was so strong. I remember sitting on the apron on the floor watching and thinking, whoa, man, this guy has some incredible innate strength, that ability to do 200 dips. Bob took my finish that night. Bob crawled to the back of the Garden. He sold his back the whole way. He crawled up the aisleway. He couldn't have put me over any stronger. And once again, it's another guy, who went that extra? That night, when they sent me out for the second time at the Garden, he pulled me aside and he goes, "Take your time, make 'em love you. Start the love affair with them. This is what you're going to need to get over." It was strange because you always hear the Backlund stories how it was almost a rib that they made him a champion. Here's a guy that actually got it. They put him in that position and he got over to spite them, f--- them, and here's how you do it. He didn't have an attitude that the young kid was getting the belt. It was a nice experience.

Keller: Do you think Bret was at all upset with the transition of the title at the time?

Nash: He was very upset. He came to me when he heard about it in Europe. He came to me and asked if I thought he wasn't doing a good job with the belt. I said, "You know, no man, I think you're a great champion. But, Bret, with that belt comes money. What do you want me to say for my family standpoint? No, I don't want the belt? Come on, if the boss wants me to have the belt, I'm gonna take the belt. If you have a problem with it, take it up with him."

Keller: Did he expect you to say you didn't want the belt?

Nash: I think he did! It's almost as if he was saying, "You don't love it as much as I do." I said, "Bullsh--. I do, I do. Bret, maybe I haven't been in it as long as you, but I have that same affection for the strap as you because quite frankly because I love wealth as much as you do." But Bret and I had always had a really good relationship. I was glad I wasn't there when everything else transpired because that would have tarnished my relationship with him because I would have been lumped in. I heard that we were supposedly a part of it from Atlanta, that we actually were in on it, like we satellited in some kind of mojo. Just because we were the clique, they thought there was no way those pricks weren't in on it from Atlanta. (laughs)

Keller: Today looking back at it, did Bret make too big of a deal out of it and Vince was totally within his right? Was it just two powerful people butting heads and the most powerful guy won? Or was Vince trying to screw Bret to get at him or Bischoff?

Nash: I always say this. When I watch the tape back, I always say to myself it's a f---in' work. There's no f---in' way that Vince McMahon would ever walk out of a room f---' selling. I've always said that as long as I live, to this day I will say, "It was a f---ing work!" I saw Vince McMahon with the federal government up his ass, with neck surgery walking to White Plains and basically doing a f---in' Gregory Hines tapdance through a television when everybody was wondering, "Are we getting shut down?" And Vince looked at us and did Mr. Bojangles and said, "No."

Keller: Let me throw this out there then. He did it, it was a shoot, and part of him felt terrible about it, and when he got backstage, as he says, he felt Bret deserved a chance to confront him over it, and when he did, he wanted the world to know what happened. He chose that moment to show vulnerability out of guilt for what was a shoot.

Nash: (pause) I don't know. There's no weakness in that man. I mean, if he wanted to show that, then it was a work in him showing that. He showed it out of the fact that maybe he knew it was a bad deal. You will never, ever, ever see Vince show weakness. The closest I ever got was when I stood in Paul's (Triple H) wedding and watched his daughter marry Paul. I watched Vince kind of sell a little that his daughter was moving on in life. Vince and I had some good moments during that, because he knew of the tightness between Paul and I. But Vince tore both of his quads. Do you think he's selling anywhere? He ain't selling sh--.

Keller: Do you think Shawn Michaels, in the position he was in, did what he had to do and handled it the right way?

Nash: God, that's such a rough call because it's one of those deals - when I was Vince's boy in New York, if Jack Ruby would have come up, I would have taken the bullet. That's just the way you feel for the man. There's a love for him because he loves you and you love him back. He's a man's man. Anybody who doesn't like Vince McMahon? Austin and him have butted heads for years and years and years, but Steve loves that man. I love Vince McMahon. I can say whatever I want to about him because I went through times with him, but I won't let nobody badmouth him.

Keller: Terry Taylor after he got fired said that he loved him. Vince Russo after everything they went through says he loves him. A lot of people have that affection for him who have worked really closely with him.

Nash: Vince is a man. You respect his power. In a world of alpha-males, he's on top of the mountain. If anything, there's a jealousy factor that people have because he's a billionaire and he runs the business I love and he calls the shots. That's why I always said to Bischoff, "F---, you beat The Man for two years. There ain't a f---ing human being on this planet, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, anywhere that can say they beat the man for two years. I would have that on my gravestone. "Here lies beloved father, husband, blah blah blah, and by the way I beat McMahon for 92 weeks" or whatever. Eric, that was huge! That's the whole thing where I think it's so important for us to try to get TNA going because if there is a viable commodity to go against Vince, anything, he'll just become better.

Keller: When Hulk Hogan signed with WCW, did that reverberate within the WWF locker room that Hulk Hogan, WWF American Pie, is now with the competition? How did that shake out with the top guys?

Nash: You know, at that point we were so cocky. The thing is, I didn't have a long enough time to spend with Hulk during that first run. He was there only a couple of months and he was gone. It was one of those deals, you don't realize in this business, there's Hulk Hogan and then there's wrestling. You don't realize it. I remember when the NWO took off and we did all of our sh--. We did those black and white things. The original thing was, me and Scott did some soundbites and Hogan went 45 minutes nonstop. Me and Scott went holy f---! This guy is the great white. He's jaws. He will eat you alive if you're not prepared. Don't come into his domain. At the same time, we gave him no respect. I remember Hulk saying to me in the back of the plane once, "My whole career, all people have wanted to do was sit there and eat from the Hogan apple tree and let the golden apples fall into their hands. Hall and Nash come along and they want to take a chainsaw, cut the tree down, and take all the apples. You guys are too much." Sure, we didn't appreciate what he was, but at the same time, when we went back to New York, it was a completely different thing. When we went back to New York as the NWO, it was like the three of us versus the world. That night when he stood toe-to-toe against The Rock and the crowd went "Hogan," I bonered out so bad because I learned the hard way that Hogan is the f---in' man. There's Hulk Hogan and then there's everybody else. I will say it to this day. When it comes to pro wrestling, there's Hulk Hogan and then there's the next guy.

Keller: And Steve Austin's the next guy?

Nash: I think so.

Keller: Is that a big gap?

Nash: I think it's different. Steve's run was as iconic as Hulk's. Hulk's career is just so much longer. It's like there's Babe Ruth, and then there's Barry Bonds. I think that Hulk is Babe Ruth. I still think to this day that Bonds is probably the greatest baseball player that's ever played baseball, but he's still not Babe Ruth. So, that's kind of the way I equate it. Steve, God, when we (in WCW) were kicking their ass and Steve started getting going, I was Steve's friend. I would go to the truck and try to watch his sh-- (on Raw) because it was so f---ing good.

Keller: You were watching this, and Nitro was still winning the ratings by a point or a point and a half, but you're watching it knowing this is without question way better than anything else right now.

Nash: The thing was, too, I told Eric (Bischoff) that when they did the WrestleMania and they brought (Mike) Tyson in and every match had a movie quality trailer that told the story from the last six or eight weeks of what the match was because Vince knew nobody was watching the show. I mean, that's when Kane was shooting lightning bolts out of his hands and catching people on fire. I watched that from my house that night and I called Eric up late after the show ended and I said, "Dude, we're in f---ing trouble." He said, "Awwww, f--- that." I said, "Watch WrestleMania. We're f---ed." Kevin Sullivan said [Nash imitating Sullivan]: "Brothah. Do you feel the wah-der? It's getting cold. It means we're about to hit an iceberg." Sullivan knew. Are you not watching the competition? We're about to f---in' sink. We're f---ed. These guys are off and running.

Keller: You didn't get that feeling at all when Hogan signed with WCW the first time and you were still with the WWF? You said you were really cocky at that point?

Nash: We were the New Generation. We thought we had reinvented the wheel. We were the clique. We were the strongest thing in the business. Nobody told us what to do.

Keller: And you knew what you knew about WCW and thought Hulk alone couldn't fix that mess.

Nash: I didn't know how committed Hulk was going to be. I thought he was going to take a payday. He was doing that Thunder in Paradise show at the time, which was right down there. I figured he was just getting another huge payday off these marks. It was a different Hulk. I thought he just thought the marks bought into Hulk, which was good for us. Anytime somebody is making money, they set that bar higher. When the bar is set at eight million, you can say he's doing a 2.0 and we're doing a 3.0, how about giving us more money.

May 6, 2005

Is Nash actually basing his belief that Montreal was a work on the fact that McMahon was limping ?

Loss · May 6, 2005

Is Nash actually basing his belief that Montreal was a work on the fact that McMahon was limping ?

Yes, he is, because he says Vince doesn't sell. That's a good one.

May 6, 2005

Is Nash actually basing his belief that Montreal was a work on the fact that McMahon was limping ?
Yes, he is, because he says Vince doesn't sell. That's a good one.

All I can say is wow.

May 7, 2005

I think he realizes that it's a shoot but can't believe that Vince sold the punch from Bret in the hallway in front of the boys and a camera. Vince tore both his quads and was strutting out to the ring a couple months later, he's too proud to sell or show pain. I think that's what Nash was getting at.

I'm really enjoying these interviews. I think he's probably being more truthfull, atleast as far as his opinion goes in this than he has ever been.

Al · May 7, 2005

I think he realizes that it's a shoot but can't believe that Vince sold the punch from Bret in the hallway in front of the boys and a camera. Vince tore both his quads and was strutting out to the ring a couple months later, he's too proud to sell or show pain. I think that's what Nash was getting at.

I'm really enjoying these interviews. I think he's probably being more truthfull, atleast as far as his opinion goes in this than he has ever been.

Hell, he tore the second quad because he was too proud to look weak after tearing the first one.

May 7, 2005

Vince is a strange guy. I wonder if Vince lost respect for Nash after he dropped like a rock and screamed like a bitch when he tore his quad. 3 years later Vince won't even sell two torn quads. That shit has to hurt really badly and the only time Vince sold it was when he collasped, which was involuntary.

Loss · May 19, 2005

Torch Talk Library

Kevin Nash talks about telling Vince McMahon he was leaving the WWF for WCW (05-14-05)

May 14, 2005, 04:38 AM

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 6

Originally Published: May 14, 2005

Torch Newsletter #861

Kevin Nash was one of the biggest names of the Monday Night War era whose jump with Scott Hall from the WWF to WCW helped shift the balance of power in the wrestling industry. In this, the sixth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about meeting Triple H for the first time, the power of The Clique, comparing salaries with other wrestlers, breaking the news to Vince McMahon that he was jumping to WCW, why he made the decision, whether he ever regrets the decision, his return to the WWF, and more.

As this "Torch Talk" progresses, he marches through in great detail his entire career including the MSG Clique farewell, the formation and success of the NWO, the downfall of WCW, his role in that downfall, the drug culture that permeated WCW during its peak years, his ill-fated return to WWE, his philosophy on pro wrestling, and much more.

Wade Keller: Talk about getting to know Triple H.

Kevin Nash: On Saturdays we'd watch the Saturday show from our hotel rooms. He was Terra Rizing (on WCW). He was me and Scott's favorite guy. So he comes to our TV. We were in, like, Worcester, Mass. and Scott said, "Did you see who was here?" I said, "No." He said , "Terra Rizing." I said, "You're sh--ing me?" So Scott was walking down the hallway step for step right behind him. Hunter stopped and Scott bumped into him. It was kind of an awkward thing because Scott was kind of f---ing with him. So then we sat there and he had his tryout match. It was halfway through it and Scott looked at me with that look that said, "F---in' this dude's money." He got hired. We went right to Vince. It was me, Scott, and Shawn (Michaels). We said is he good or what? Vince said, "Yeah, he's real good." We grabbed 'em the next road trip. The first road trip we had, he travelled with Walter ("Killer" Kowalski). He felt compelled to do that. The next road trip we told him, "You're with us." I know he was thinking, "F---, I don't know if I want to travel with (Sean) Waltman, Michaels, Hall, and Nash. I don't know if I want to travel with the Clique." I said, "You are travelling with us. We need someone who can drive us!" (laughs) We needed a designated driver who was clean and he jumped in and it was the same thing. Here was another guy who loved the business like nobody else. It was so great. It's great to watch him now. It's like, there are other guys who grew up with our psychology and our philosophy and just took it to another level.

Keller: During the same time, were Stephanie or Shane McMahon around much?

Nash: Not much at all. I'll tell you a funny story. Stephanie came to Chicago for Summerslam, I think. I knew it was Vince's daughter. I wanted to go out to the blues club. I talked to her and told her my plans. She said, "All right, I'll go with you." I took Vince's daughter out to a blues club in Chicago. Shane (McMahon) found out that I took his sister to a blues club and he came looking for me. I'm sure he went, "You've got to be sh--in' me. Nash has got my little sister." She was like 20 or 21 years old then. He walked to the blues club and came up to me with that look on him that he was about to throw a punch at me. I told him to sit down and have a beer. That was the first time I ever spent any time with Steph. At the time she was going to Boston College or something. I've always really liked her. She really has an aptitude for the business. Her biggest problem is the people around her. I don't think the people around here are best for her. Stephanie knows a great idea, she can create one, but she needs somebody - you can't have people around you who haven't drawn money. I don't think you can have somebody from the Drew Carey Show write for wrestling.

Keller: I think you have to have lived it as a fan or a wrestler to some degree to understand what it takes to sell tickets. I think one of the detriments to Stephanie is that she didn't grow up a fan who needed to be talked into buying a ticket, so she never knew first-hand what would have made her buy a wrestling ticket. She was born into the business instead.

Nash: Right. There's a huge thing to that. I'm curious with WrestleMania coming up how the Batista-Hunter match is going to come down. I'm really curious what the finish will be. I won't ask on (Shawn) Michaels vs. (Kurt) Angle. Those are the only two reasons that I will buy that pay-per-vew. There is not another thing on the card that means a sh-- to me. So, I'm wondering how Hunter's going to drop it because you know he's going to because he has to. And I'm wondering what the finish is to Shawn and Angle. I won't ask because it'll ruin the show for me. I look at what they've got and I say, "That's all they've got."

Keller: You mentioned earlier that other wrestlers were upset with The Clique. How much influence did you really have with Vince? You attended production and booking meetings. Do you ever look back and said, "Yeah, we might have abused that power," or do you look back and think that whatever influence you did have, you always had the betterment of the WWF in mind?

Nash: I know we did. We sat in a meeting and we said uncle at one point. He came to Columbus, Ohio. He came with Pat (Patterson ). They came immediately and we say, "This isn't working. We have some things we need to run down." This was when Bam Bam (Bigelow), (Ted) DiBiase, and a couple of other guys gave Vince an ultimatum: Break up the Clique or we leave. I remember sitting that night or that afternoon in a room. Hunter asked if he should stay. I said, "Dude, you need to be in the room. You're going to get the heat anyway. You might as well be in here and get the lesson with the heat." I remember Bam Bam's name coming up and everybody going, "Hey, I think he's a f---in' douche bag, but he can play on my team any day of the year." We never made it personal. If you could go, you could go. That's all we worried about. If you could go, if you could carry the ball, then you could be on the team. But if you were a piece of sh-- and you had a bad attitude and you couldn't work, then we didn't want you around.

Keller: Name a wrestler who got a bigger push who wasn't a friend of yours because of your group's influence with Vince?

Nash: I think Bam Bam got a bigger push out of that meeting. They started using him a lot more.

Keller: Is there anyone who got less of a push because of you guys.

Nash: No. Never.

Keller: From Vince's perspective, what made you guys so valuable that he risked locker room mutiny to an extent by letting you guys in a room and kind of separating you from the rest of them?

Nash: I think it was a situation where when it came down to it, Vince could probably get anybody else. Say we had 60 guys, of any of the other 55 guys, he could get them in a room and basically say, "Okay, honestly now, you're really not his friend are you?" We had five guys who took a pact that we weren't gonna ever turn against each other. There was such strength in those numbers, especially in the business at that time. We were the first guys who worked with each other who called each other up and said, "What'd you get for a payday?"

Keller: A lot of people don't realize that wrestlers have almost always kept their pay secret, and it worked out to the advantage of the promoters.

Nash: I remember when we did Survivor Series in San Antonio and Shawn Michaels stood on the apron all night and me and Scott basically worked the whole match, and we called up Shawn and asked what he got. He got 75 (thousand). We went, f---, we got 50, and he did nothing but a superkick. We called J.J. and said, "What the f--- is that?!" He said, "It must be a misunderstanding. Hold on." We got another 25 grand each. It was one of those deals where they went, "Oh, f---, these guys are talking to each other, telling each other payoffs. We have no power on these guys."

Keller: How did you end up first heariing about the opportunity to jump to WCW?

One time we were in the locker room. It was me and Scott, we were somewhere in Virginia or West Virginia. I think it was Charleston, West Virginia. Me and Scott were in the show. Scott said, "I'm not going to redo my deal with Vince. I'm not going to let it roll over." I said, "Oh, f---, that's not a good idea." He said, "All right, between me and you, I've got this, this, and this with WCW. I have a deal memo done with Barry Bloom. It's legit. It's cash money." So I said, "What! That much!" So I talked to Barry, and Barry talked to them (WCW). I said I'd be interested if they offered the same money for me. It was basically double the money.

Keller: You were making about $375 at the time and they were offering $750, right?

Nash: I made as Diesel probably $750,000 that year, but I worked 300 days. We were talking 750 for 150 days. They were basically talking double the money, first class air, rental cars paid for, hotels paid for. So basically all you had to do was show up and get your food.

Keller: And if you get injured, same money.

Nash: Right. And it went up each year - 750, 850, 950. Nobody was making 950 at that time but Hulk. He was the only guy making over a mill. The 750 offer was the WCW cap for everybody. We went in and got over like we knew we would, then we renegotiated and we were the first guys to make seven figures over five years.

Keller: Was there ever talk of Shawn Michaels jumping with you two, also?

Nash: Never. He was never, ever going to leave. To him, I'm a Yankee and I'm never leaving the Yankees. I think Taker actually changed his gimmick a little bit because he saw where the money was going. I think Taker knew that the dead guy character wasn't something he could take with him to WCW. It was the WWF's intellectual property. I'm not sure, I haven't talked to Mark (Callaway about it), but I think that's one reason why he changed his character so much.

Keller: Because it gave him negotiating leverage he wouldn't have?

Nash: It gave him the ability to go someplace else and be "Mean Mark" or whatever he had to be again. At that point, I remember Vince telling me that when you walk out of this company, Diesel dies. "You don't understand, man," I said. Then I pulled my license out and put my hand over the name and said, "Who's that? That's Diesel right there? No, it's Kevin Nash." (laughs) I tried to tell Steve (Austin) that when Steve left, when he didn't get the (rights to the) name Stone Cold. "Dude," I said, "The most important intellectual property that you have is your face. If I'm sitting in the gym and you're on a f---in' television commercial, I'll be like, ?That's Stone Cold Steve Austin.' From a Q-Factor, I know who the f--- you are. I don't need somebody to put something on the bottom that says it's Stone Cold Steve Austin. You are Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Keller: Do you ever or have you ever looked back and wondered what would have been if you had stayed?

Nash: (Deep breath, pause) To me, maybe the wrestling business wouldn't have boomed like it did. I never, ever in my life have looked back. I mean, out of high school, I got a call from Magic Johnson and he told that he was going to Michigan State and it would be a smart idea for me to go to Michigan State with him. He said we'd win a national championship. "We've have you, me, and Jay Vincent. That's all we need." I said, "No, man, I'm gonna go South." When I look back at it now, I'd be wearing an NCAA Championship ring every day of my life. But you know, you can't look back in life. You can't do it. You've got to look forward. To me, at this point in my life, I'm a 45, almost 46 year old man, and I walk across the mall and some 18 year old kid threw up a WolfPac sign and said NWO. I mean, f---in', I would never trade it for a million years. It changed the landscape of pro wrestling. I mean, I was part of a synergy that would probably never have been created. There are a lot of people who say (the Outsiders and NWO) was the greatest angle of all time. I feel blessed to be a part of it. I feel blessed to be able to throw some of my input into it. And I feel blessed to be part of the wrestling world.

Keller: How did you tell Vince McMahon that you were making that move, and was it difficult on a personal level?

Nash: Oh, God, it was like telling your dad that you were not going to his college or joining fraternity, saying instead, "I'm actually going to join a sorority." I remember where it was. It was Stockton, California. They had offered me the money. I pulled them outside and talked to him. I said, "I want to tell you this man-to-man. I laid it out to him and told him what the contract was. If you match it, I'll say in a f---n' heartbeat." He said, "I can't match that." He didn't have that kind of money then. I asked if he understood. He said we're family. "Dude," I said. "I love you, man. But my f---in' wife was seven-and-a-half months pregnant and I knew at that point I had a little boy coming into this world. I knew that I could not f---in' work 300 dates a year with a child. I knew I had to cut my workload. To me, it was God telling me something.

Keller: The time couldn't have been better.

Nash: No, it couldn't have. At the beginning especially my son was born. I think I started June 6th with them. I think - no, I know my son was born June 12th. I worked June 6th, and June 12th my son was born. I went to TV the next day and it was like just Mondays. Back then we'd show up on a portal for a show. They'd play our music, we'd show up, and we'd retreat. We did that for six or seven weeks. F--, man, I was getting a check for 50 or 60 grand or whatever it was every two weeks and I'm not even taking a bump.

Keller: And you're not worried about what the gate is to determine your paycheck.

Nash: Exactly. And I'm not wondering if they're skimming off the top. When Zane (Breslof), God rest his soul, was leaving (the WWF) and we walked into Phoenix, you know it's a 160, 170 thousand dollar house and he said it was 100. You're going what? He was leaving and taking the cash with him. There were too many intangibles (to consider turning it down). To me, guaranteed money is a no-brainer.

Keller: Did Vince feel betrayed or did he understand?

Nash: I think he felt betrayed. I think to this day he felt betrayed. I think moreso by me than anybody else. When I came back, I told him when we were at Hunter's bachelor party. I said, "I owe you." I came back and was basically hurt the two years. I felt I owed him. Yet at the same time, when I tried to come back and cut my hair for (Chris) Jericho, I basically wanted to do the Diesel thing with Jericho. I could stand behind Jericho because he was undersized and that was always going to be a problem for him as a heel. I laid it out for everybody. Then I went and did The Punisher movie and came back and they kind of sh-- on me. I said, "You know what, f--- you! I've got a bad neck. I'm going to get my neck f---in' fixed and f--- everybody." I'll get my neck fixed and the doctor will say I can't work until January 1st and my deal will be over and f--- you. I still wanted to do business. I thought Chris was a really talented guy. I thought it was something that would work. The creative team just didn't have anything for me. When I came into Orlando with like a month left in my deal and I talked to (Jim) Ross, Ross basically - they offered me a creative job. They said, "Hey, we really don't see anything for you wrestling-wise." I'm thinking, f---, as beat up as I am, I can outwork 90 percent of your f---in' crew just because I know how to work. I remember when they put me in that Hell in a Cell. Everybody was thinking I'd have a sh-- match. No, psychology still rules, you f---n' mark. I can't go out there and light myself on fire and do a huracanrana from a f---in' 40 foot balcony, but I can go out there and sell a f---in' hammer to my head. I can sell. I can get people to believe that what I'm doing is real. That's the f---in' key. Nobody believes the Chinese fire f---in' drill with all the tumblin' and all that sh--. I roll you and you roll me and roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll, roll. Oh that's the finish, no this is the finish. Nobody f---in' buys that choreographed sh--. The closer it is to a bar fight, the more f---in' jokes Joe Schmo in the audience believes it's real. And that's just it. I've never been in a bar fight my entire life where I kicked somebody in the teeth, they went down, and punched them three times in the f---in' temple. I never thought at that point thoguht it was a good time to get on top of the bar and come off with something big. You know?

Keller: I think if you were 5-8 in a big man's business, you would do what you had to in order to stand out. The style differences have to do more with what you need to do to get over. The realistic part is important, but so is excitement.

Nash: (pause) To me people always say Nash has got six moves. I'm thinking, Larry Holmes had three. (laughs) He had a jab, a hook, and a cross. How much do you need to be effective in life. I mean, if I don't drop you with my right in a shoot, then I'm gonna follow it quickly with my left because I'm a south paw. If I don't drop you with that, the next thing coming behind that left is my elbow to your temple. And if that doesn't work, I'm going to drive a knee into your groin and if that doesn't drop you, you're a bad mother f---er. You either know how to go or don't know how to go. To me, I watch sh-- on TV. I remember when they had the La Resistance guy come down with a poodle. I said, "Oh my God, they've reverted back to the Koko B. Ware days." They're so lost that they're gonna revert back to '83. I mean, I can't watch it. It insults my intelligence.

Torch Talk Library

Kevin Nash explains the motivation behind the MSG Farewell incident (05-21-05)

May 21, 2005, 06:20 PM

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 7

Originally Published: May 21, 2005

Torch Newsletter #862

In the following seventh installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about the infamous MSG incident with the Clique right before he left the WWF for WCW.

Wade Keller: After you gave your notice to Vince McMahon, you stuck it to him a bit by taking part in the unauthorized MSG Farewell Incident with Scott Hall. What was behind that idea and do you regret it at all?

Kevin Nash: The thing was, and you can print this, I don't give a f---, we could not smoke marijuana. Scott and I went on a European trip right before that and Scott and I said f--- it, because we're putting guys over, they're not gonna fire us, so we were smoking pot the whole time. We smoked pot on the way to the Garden. We tried to get Shawn (Michaels) to smoke pot with us. He said, "F--- you guys." (laughs) He said, "Are you trying to get me fired. No, I'm not smoking pot with you guys." Of course, me and Scott get high and we said, "You know what would be f---in' great. I'm semi-main event, you're main event, f---in', we should do a Clique deal where we all come out later on. You guys come on one side, we go on the other, and we kind of face off like the Clique is taking over the f---in' business. You guys are South, we're North." So we run this idea by Shawn. Shawn runs it by Vince. Vince said, "I don't care, whatever you guys want to do." (Gerald) Brisco pulls me aside and said, "Vince won't say it, but he's pissed." We were supposed to go out to dinner together afterward. So Brisco said, "You still work for Vince and Vince wants to talk to you. Vince doesn't know what to say to you." I said, "Gerry, it's real simple. Match the offer and I stay. I haven't signed a hard copy with WCW. Match the offer and I stay. That's as simple as that. I don't wanna leave. You guys made me."

Keller: But the matching offer would have to include the limited dates WCW was promising, not just the guaranteed big money, right?

Nash: Yeah, that's the offer. Match the whole offer. He said, "We can't do it." So we went out and did our sh--. There was one point where I told them not to have cameras down there. They still brought cameras down half way through our match. I gave Shawn a bump and stood at the door and looked at the camera guy and said, "Would you like me to walk out the f---in' door right now? Get the f--- back to the back." Because Vince told me when I told him I was leaving, he wanted me to put over Mark (Undertaker) at WrestleMania. I said, "A pleasure. I will put Mark over 100 days in a row." I have nothing but respect and love for Mark. He's a man's man. I saw him work with f---in' broken ribs in a flack vest with a face mask on and a broken orbital bone. He is a stud. He's the sh--. He said, "I want you to put Shawn over in Omaha at In Your House." I said, "Absolutely. I'll do it after his finish right in the middle." And he said, "I want you put over Warrior." I said, "Only live on Raw and if he can take one on me." He said, "Okay, never mind, I'll take the other two." I said if he can take me on Raw live, then fine, but otherwise I'm knocking him the f--- out. I was mad at the time that Hunter had to put him over at WrestleMania.

Keller; Would you have done the MSG Farewell if you knew what it was going to do Hunter in terms of him taking the heat for it?

Nash: Never. God, never. I mean, I was so pissed for a year at Shawn. Shawn had the strap. Shawn could have deflected that heat. Someone had to take the brunt of it and poor Paul did. You know what, though, it's one of those deals where, to me, God always has the last word. Hunter got all the heat and now he's probably worth 250 million dollars and he's got a beautiful wife.

Keller: And if it weren't for that incident, Hunter would have won King of the Ring maybe before he was 100 percent ready and Steve Austin would not have won King of the Ring even though he was definitely ready, but instead was being overlooked.

Nash: Yeah. I think that for WWF, the stars were so aligned right for them for so long that everything worked out. When they kicked our ass, I didn't want them to kick our ass, but at the same time I was so proud of Vince for digging in and doing what he did. Those were my boys, man. I mean, you felt like a traitor anyway. You felt like Judas. You got your 30 pieces of silver, but it was nice to see the resurrection of Christ. It's nice to be there to watch them kick your ass. It was not a bad feeling.

Keller: Was there a reaction backstage after the MSG incident? Were people's jaws dropped?

Nash: Yeah, that was back in the days of kayfabe, kayfabe. We broke that. We were the guys who basically told the world how all the tricks were done on the magic show on Fox. With me and Scott saying adios amigos, there was no heat on us. It was Shawn with the strap and given his personality, it was left to poor Paul (Hunter) who got the heat. The heat had to go somewhere. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. I think that year of him being beaten down like that made him what he is. Right now when he's in that position, there's heat with the fans that he won't drop the strap, and there's heat from the locker room. I was there. I know the heat he has for being "family" and being "office." To me, it sickens me because I know, I watch the show, and I'm biased, but he's by far the best guy on the show. He is the best piece of talent in the business right now.

Keller: It's not as if Rock and Steve Austin are on the middle of the card and he's holding them down and dominating TV time.

Nash: Right. There's Paul and there's everyone else. It's amazing that when Shawn Michaels comes back, he becomes the number one babyface. I mean, immediately. Shawn could be gone for six months, the day he comes back, he's the number one babyface. People can talk, but it is what it is. Fans want big names. It took a long time for Shawn Michaels to get over. It took a long time for Kevin Nash to get over. It's going to take a long time for Batista and for (Randy) Orton to get over. The thing is, you can't book guys wrong. You can't book a smart, cocky, mother f---er like Randy Orton as a babyface. Oh god, he was the next Rick Rude. He should have been the guy walking to the building with two hot broads and f---ing Shawn Michaels walking up to him going, "What are you doing?" And he goes, "Let me get this right, you're a Christian now, but f--in' I know in your day you had plenty of pussy. Let me have my f---in' run and I'll find Christ later on." People would be, like, "What! Michaels, kick this guy's ass!" Don't push him in a mustard suit on TV and make me think I'm gonna like him. If I'm an auto worker from Detroit, I'm gonna want to punch him in the face.

Keller: Okay, so then let me ask this. If Hunter is so smart, how did he let that ill-fated turn happen in the first place?

Nash: You know what, Paul used to tell me something a long time ago before he was office. A lot of times if your face is an inch away from a painting, people will ask, "What do you see?" You'll say, "Black." They say, "Step back 35 feet, what do you see?" You'll say, "Oh, it's the Mona Lisa." So, I mean, it happens with everybody. You get in the wrestling bubble and you're looking for somebody to take some of the f---in' load off of him. If you're walking up the mountain with a load of bricks on your back and someone says, "Hey, this mother f---er over here might be able to take some of them," you don't think very long before you give him six bricks. You just do it. You just want the load taken off of you.

Keller: But do you think it's crazy when people say Hunter is a self-preservationist looking after himself ahead of the company?

Nash: I watch this guy and go out and I've never seen in the history of the business anybody give more in the first five minutes of every match than he does. I mean, he tries as hard as he can. Why is it the only time most guys are over in the territory is when they work with him? Then they go off with somebody else and they're no longer over? I mean, he tries as hard as he can to elevate talent. I love Eddie (Guerrero) and Chris (Benoit) to death, but those guys were mid-card guys 13 years in the business in WCW. I mean, they're great and probably two of the best workers ever, but they never (main evented) anywhere else, so I don't know why they put them on pedestals on both of the shows. I thought it was great in a way because they're great workers. Eddie actually drew that Latino and urban demo they were trying to get, but I don't know if it translated to dollars and sense on the house shows because it still comes down to - and I hate to say it because I'm a big guy - being a larger than life business. That's why Batista has that. No matter what, a guy at home from the assembly line in Detroit goes, "Damn, I couldn't kick his ass. He'd knock the f--- out of me."

Loss · May 19, 2005

This is the point when the interview got really controversial, I think. I want to address some of the points he made.

* I seriously doubt Terra Ryzing was anyone's favorite wrestler at the time. That story just doesn't seem right at all, considering the level of talent WCW had at that point, and the tiny, tiny bit of exposure Hunter was getting.

* Bigelow got a bigger push? I'm curious when this was. He was in the exact same place on the card he always has been, he played lil' Buddy to Nash until he was thrown out of the way to make room for Shawn Michaels, and he spent the last half of the year putting over newcomers before leaving.

* It's really funny that he said the Clique buried no one, considering what they did to Douglas (although he definitely deserved it). There's also Bret Hart being a transitional champ between two Cliquesters, which bothered him so much he contemplated quitting the company. There's also Candido, who they tortured endlessly.

* Maybe HTQ can verify this, but wasn't it reported repeatedly at the time that Nash told them he would stay with them and turn down the WCW offer?

* He doesn't do himself any favors talking about his family, following that up with him and Scott getting high on the road. He's going to be a dad, and he's still smoking pot?

* For all of his talk about how wrestling is a work and that people should just do jobs and shut up about it, he sure put up a stink about putting over Warrior.

* How can he support Michaels as a top guy when he's no bigger than Benoit and Guerrero?

* The reason no one is over after feuding with HHH is because they have been buried by the loss.

May 19, 2005

* How can he support Michaels as a top guy when he's no bigger than Benoit and Guerrero?

That was one of the bigger things that jumped out at me. Shawn is taller than both of them but I think both weigh more and if it came down to a fight, I'd go after Shawn before I would Eddy or Benoit.

HHH wasn't exactly massive when he first came in either.

Not to mention Sean Waltman...

Loss · June 5, 2005

I'm hoping I can get my hands on Part 7 and Part 8 soon, but for now, here's Part 9.

-------------

Here is the whole interview from this week....

Torch Talk with Kevin Nash, pt. 9

Originally Published: June 4, 2005

Torch Newsletter #864

In the following ninth installment of a six-hour "Torch Talk" conducted on March 24, Nash talks about Eric Bischoff and the job pressure he faced in WCW, how he believes Bischoff feels about his run in WCW in retrospect and how he handles being part of WWE today, how Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara were sabotaged from the beginning when they arrived in WCW, his admiration for the pressure Vince McMahon is under and the work ethic he puts forth year after year, how important he believes size is in terms of wrestlers' drawing power, his coining the term Vanilla Midgets, and why he'd promote Rey Mysterio as a World Champion in WWE if he had the power right now.

Wade Keller: Do you think in Eric Bischoff's mind that his accomplishments currently outweigh the sense of defeat, or do you think he is haunted and always will be by his sense of defeat no matter what he accomplished?

Kevin Nash: I think he's haunted by his defeat. I don't think he realizes what he's done. To a degree, I think, when he got to New York (WWE) and became a part of New York and saw the f---in' machine - if you've ever been to the log cabin, the place in Smyrna that was WCW headquarters - you'd walk in there and you couldn't find an IQ above 30. Not to be sh--y, but it wasn't like you had a marketing department. You had a guy who studied marketing in high school (laughs).

Keller: So Eric might have felt better about things once he saw first-hand what he had gone up against?

Nash: I think once he got to New York and realized the machine he actually beat, I think that helped.

Keller: Eric puts up a brave front during interviews. He has his three reasons or whatever for why WCW went out of business and why it wasn't his fault or in his control, and he talks about what he did accomplish. He says things to indicate to an average person listening that he's at peace with himself. But deep down there must be a feeling of lost opportunity, right?

Nash: I know that once he came there and saw what he was against, he went "Wow!"

Keller: Do you think he's content in the role he's in now? Or does it hurt him to have once been in control and now just be a talent who isn't even consulted?

Nash: Knowing him the way I know him, he's happy doing his own thing, riding his bike. I'm sure that he liked the ride, but he likes his family times, too. I'm sure he enjoys being able to perform, do what's expected of him, and be off for five days.

Keller: Was there ever a point where you lost respect for Eric seeing how he handled the pressure?

Nash: Never.

Keller: Were there times you ever wanted to grab him and shake him?

Nash: No, because there were so many snipers. It was like trying to go to the grocery store in Bosnia in '93. I mean, there were so many snipers It was paranoia, but it was warranted. Everybody was out to kill him.

Keller: If there was no recreational drug use at all among anybody in WCW during the best year or two period, do you think things would have been better off in that things would have lasted longer? In certain pockets and certain areas, did drug use contribute to the spin out of control?

Nash: If it wouldn't have been for the recreational drug use, the thing probably would have collapsed after three weeks (laughs). I mean, it was sex, drugs, and rock and roll. That's part of what made it what it was. There was a reckless abandon, showing up on Monday TV with one match done at 7 o'clock and people going, "Oh, f---, we're live in an hour!"

Keller: And two hundred wrestlers flown in and you're going to use 14.

Nash: It was crazy. The thing was, of those 200 wrestlers who got called in, and the 14 that were used, all of them were at the Marriott bar that night (laughs). It was a party. It was what it was. It was like when I worked at the Cheetah. It was like working a strip joint. I can't wait to get this three hour show over so we can go to the party.

Keller: Like any good drug trip, you're going to have the high and then the inevitable crash. Do you think there was an element of crashing from living that lifestyle?

Nash: I think so. How long could a rock tour last? After about two years, by that time it's "Behind the Music" and everybody hates everybody. And that's what happened. It was kind of the whole deal like "Behind the Music."

Keller: Do you think Eric handled the pressure of the job well all of the time?

Nash: I thought so.

Keller: Even when he was throwing coffee at Eddie (Guerrero)?

Nash: Eric's a hot-head. Eric's the kind of guy who will call you a mother f---er and Eric will say, "You're a prick and I want to kill you," and then that night he'll drink a beer with you and he's over it. I like that. I like somebody who wears their emotions on their sleeve and can get it out and at the same time, can three hours later say, "You know what, f---, I was kind of a dick to you, sorry." At the same time, if he goes off on you and you were wrong, he doesn't apologize, he'll stay on you. Then you should apologize and say you were wrong. That was a high pressure position Eric was in, though. It's understandable that he went off at times. One thing I've always said that amazes me is I know that I'm responsible in my life for probably 20 people at various times, while Vince is responsible for probably 400 people's lives - and that's on a day in, day out basis. When you get older and you get more mature and you sit back and look at it, I said to myself, I don't understand how the man does it. I don't understand how he puts in the 16 hours. I don't understand how he has the drive that he does on a day in and day out basis to make that many people's lives. He's responsible for a large number of people's well-being.

Keller: Is that a big weight on Vince's shoulders, or is that just who he is?

Nash: You know what, people say they let this guy go and that guy go and that guy go. They talk about the cuts at WWE. They think that doesn't go through Vince. Vince doesn't hire anybody that he doesn't have somewhat of a relationship with. So everybody who gets cut, Vince has had a relationship with at some point. Vince is the captain of the team, so it's just like somebody from the team got let go. I know how personally Vince takes that. He takes that as defeat. Financially that means the company wasn't doing well enough to keep those people on. God, that kind of pressure on a day in, day out basis, f---, it's another one of those things that increases your respect for what you have for the man. He is such The Man. He is The Man. He is able to handle that kind of responsibility and that much stress.

Keller: What's the one aspect about him that if it were changed, it would make his life better. False pride? Not being good at taking criticism? Taking too much criticism? Having too many yes men around him? What's something about him that might slow down or hinder his success?

Nash: The thing about the yes-men is that when we were there as the Clique and we talked to Vince, he was always wide open for ideas. If somebody comes up to you and all they ever say is how pretty you are or how handsome you are, if that's all they ever say, that's who that person is.

Keller: There are people who are scared to make too many suggestions outside of Vince's vision because Vince does have a certain road he drives on, and he wants you to make that drive smooth.

Nash: Yes. But I've never been around Vince and seen him where he fired somebody for that. (Vince) Russo bumped heads with him. Russo said, "No, that's not the way, Vince." I mean, Russo will say he basically booked everything. I know better. Russo gave him an idea and Vince took it and made it his. Russo's got a strong personality. Vince (McMahon) is Vince, and there's no coincidence that they're both named Vince. That's how the play's supposed to play out Shakespearean-wise. Those guys, they had a synergy that was f---in' beautiful, from the placing of the Sable spot with the spike, they knew how to do it. Wrestling was doing an 11 back then. Monday Night Football was thinking of going on Thursdays (laughs). I mean, you think back about that and you go, I don't care what you say, if you were part of that machine at that time, you have been successful in life.

Keller: How much was Ed Ferrara in that mix?

Nash: Ed's great! Ed always gave the comedy aspect.

Keller: There was a synergy with Russo and Ferrara working together where they filled in each other's weaknessees and each had different strengths.

Nash: Absolutely. That was a great group. They brought them to WCW, but they came in there and then J.J. (Dillon) and all those guys started chopping their heads off the minute they came in. That old-school mentality kicked in. They immediately separated me from the booking team so they could chop their heads off.

Keller: Do you think that Russo and Ferrara got a fair chance in WCW, or do you think there were some weaknesses that were exposed in WCW that were exposed outside of Vince McMahon's leadership?

Nash: Oh, God, not a chance. They were in the back of the car at Daily Plaza when they walked through the door. The plan was in motion to be sure they did not succeed. They were brought in on a whim and they were never given a chance; right away they were shot down. The old school Florida booking team went to work on them.

Keller: Do you think Russo and Ferrara could have been successful in WCW without Vince McMahon as part of that equation to keep their blob of ideas going in a certain direction?

Nash: I think no. I think the thing that made them successful is a lot of the times they go too far out, and Vince (McMahon) always had the capability to say (imitating Vince McMahon), "Ahh, that just doesn't make sense. That's bullsh--." It isn't like Vince hasn't drawn money. That's the one thing about Vince. He's been there before, so he knows. He can see when something's not going to draw money.

Keller: It probably makes a difference for Russo and Ferrara when they're writing to please Vince McMahon versus "I want to establish my own identity as a writer." When you're writing to please Vince, you're to a certain extent within a formula that has worked for years. When you become an artist writing for your own vision without McMahon to rein you in, you're going to make mistakes.

Nash: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Keller: Did you coin the term Vanilla Midgets?

Nash: (pause) I may have. (laughs)

Keller: When you used that term in reference to Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, and other smaller wrestlers, what was the context of that? Any regrets?

Nash: It was one of those deals where I loved what they did, but at the same time, it's like watching a porno with a guy with a four inch c--k. It doesn't matter how he moves. I'm a big guy, I want to watch big guys wrestle. That's just me. I didn't appreciate what they did, but at the same time when I took over the book and Eric told me, "I'm paying these guys 500, 600 thousand dollars a year, you have to get them over," I said, "F---, because you did bad deals with people, don't expect me to get people over. F---, it's going to be hard. When a guy looks like your neighborhood gardener on the gas, it's tough. If a five-foot-seven guy walks through the airport, it's not gonna be... I'm very surprised Vince (McMahon) did that (signed and pushed them). Vince was never that guy. Vince was always, like, "When he walks through the airport, he's got to turn heads." He wanted that bigger than life guy.

Keller: Yet you respect Rey Mysterio and what he contributed to Nitro.

Nash: That was a different thing. To me, right now, if I was booking New York, Rey would be my champion.

Keller: And it might happen.

Nash: It should! Benoit is probably, to me, as good a worker, and so is Eddie, but they don't have that - if I'm sitting at home - me and Scott (Hall) used to always say to be over in this business, the girl's got to want to f--- you and the guy's got to wanna be ya'. Girls don't wanna f--- Benoit. Girls I don't think wanna f - -- Eddie. Girls wanna f--- Rey, guys want to be Rey. That's what gets over in this business. Guys want to f---in ' be Batista? F--- yeah. Do girls want to f--- Batista? Yeah. Do guys want to be Orton? Yeah. Do girls want to f--- Orton? Yeah. There's a real intangible in this business and that's it.

Keller: And there are big guys, 6-5, 6-8, with muscles and a good look who don't fit that description that Rey does.

Nash: Right.

Keller: So the formula, as much a size is and always has been and always will be a factor, it's the be all, end all.

Nash: It is not. Because you have to have "it." Michaels has it. Girls want to f--- him, guys want to be him. He's a 6-1, 219 pound champion in world of 300 pounders. The thing is, his physical attributes, his work was so far above - but he was still 6-1, 219. I mean, you're a strong safety in the NFL. I mean, you're not a small guy. Rey is, like, an exception to the rule. But I watched Rey work and I put Rey over because I wanted everybody in the locker room to know, guess what guys, everybody does jobs here. The biggest guy is putting the smallest guy over because guess what, he has enough offense to do it. And I'll tell you what, we blew the roof off that place that night in Sacramento. The only thing in retrospect I should have done is I should have been the last one he got to. I should have had him be the giant killer the opposite way - have him beat three or four of the bigger guys - (Scott) Norton types - and then go to a PPV and beat me. That was the mistake I made because I had no idea how over he really was. New York can learn by that. My mistake was I didn't realize how over the guy could be.

Next week, he talks about the lack of fresh talent being rotated into WCW at a time when the WWF was creating new stars during the Monday Night War.

June 5, 2005

Girls wanna f--- Rey, guys want to be Rey

I obviously can't speak from a male's perspective, but I'd rather pitch Rey's cheek and tell him he's cute than fuck him. He's a cute guy, but hardly a typical macho player that Nash is sort of portraying him to be.

Oh, and speaking of which, I don't think any girl would want to fuck Steve Austin. That wasn't his appeal at all. So that's at least one situation where Nash's theory is wrong.

Big Sexy sounds off

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