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Rick Rude vs. Ted Dibiase

Rick Rude vs. Ted Dibiase  

79 members have voted

  1. 1. Rick Rude or Ted Dibiase



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Kaiju also did a batshit crazy draft where you were allowed to select anyone who'd ever lived, which led to some of the funniest stuff I've ever read on a message board. I recall drafting (among others) Terry Funk, Inoki, Ted Turner, Jim Herd, Andre the Giant, and Confucius. Several people actually tried to negotiate trades with me for Confucius. TheRoyalDutchOfDukes got this savant genius guy whose name I don't recall to write his, and the dude ended up scripting weeks if not months of genuinely great TV in which Kevin Sullivan and Jerry Estrada joined forces, Roddy Piper and Jumbo Tsuruta performed the Ramones' "Do You Remember Rock and Roll Radio?" together, and Kerry Von Erich was some kind of Nazi supersoldier who on his death bed transformed into Sid Vicious. Someone booked a warehouse explosion in which several of our characters died. It was a true high water mark for that board's insular brilliance.

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They actually came to us to see if it was okay as a courtesy. Steven - I forgot you did it too, I thought there were some other guys. Was it OTR or Shake the Ropes? One of those two, guys I don't really know. I thought it was nice that they asked and gave credit when they didn't have to -- appealed to the academic in me, I like citations. I don't know of any other shows doing it in podcast form before us.

 

Naturally, I had no idea about Yohe and co doing it in 93. I'd be interested to see those drafts.

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Yohe and I talked about it in this thread, following up Gus talking about another one going online on yet another board:

 

http://www.otherarena.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=16591

 

Draft was May/June 1993. My second post in the thread gives some of the guidelines. We all liked the first of these two items (get the belts they had), and second of them made things tough in real time:

 

 

I think we went 50 wrestlers deep, and we were picking "current" wrestlers as they were at that moment.

 

You got the "belt" that each of the wrestlers had at the time of the draft, with the fiction that the existing promotions were forced to close shop when the "new" promotions stole all their talent. :P

 

If they got hurt or died, they went out for as long as they did in real life. So when Ted DiBiase has the career ender later in the year, Yohe was shit outta luck on him. He also had Liger break the foot that year as well. When Windham got hurt around the time of the Flair match, he was toast. I think we had a rule that if they got hurt but wrestled an "out" match (one last one before going out), we could be flexible on when that match could be scheduled to fit into your promotional schedule. This was consistent with Windham blowing the knee out, but wrestling the PPV to drop the title to Flair before going out. So I got one match after the date of the knee injury to send him out.

 

 

Having Ted's injury, Barry's injury & Gordy's overdose and having to deal with them as "real" in the exact same time frame made things tough, but interesting and realistic. Same goes fro Liger's 1994 injury: you were SOL if you had him.

 

Yohe's listed his draft about halfway down the thread. It is eclectic.

 

My notes and copies of Steve's wild bookings would be buried even deeper in a closet not than in 2009.

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Kaiju also did a batshit crazy draft where you were allowed to select anyone who'd ever lived, which led to some of the funniest stuff I've ever read on a message board. I recall drafting (among others) Terry Funk, Inoki, Ted Turner, Jim Herd, Andre the Giant, and Confucius. Several people actually tried to negotiate trades with me for Confucius. TheRoyalDutchOfDukes got this savant genius guy whose name I don't recall to write his, and the dude ended up scripting weeks if not months of genuinely great TV in which Kevin Sullivan and Jerry Estrada joined forces, Roddy Piper and Jumbo Tsuruta performed the Ramones' "Do You Remember Rock and Roll Radio?" together, and Kerry Von Erich was some kind of Nazi supersoldier who on his death bed transformed into Sid Vicious. Someone booked a warehouse explosion in which several of our characters died. It was a true high water mark for that board's insular brilliance.

 

Drafting Jim Herd alone gives one an idea of just how batshit funny that must of been. :)

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I'm now seriously upset that Kerry never had a run as a nazi supersoldier, they could have done a bionic leg gimmick as well, and him doing a Pokemon/Dragon Ball style evolution into Sid Vicious sounds brilliant.

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I don't know if you listen to podcasts Elliot, but this is an idea I had before and we actually did a draft here:

 

http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft/

 

Year was 1990, everyone was a free agent. First show was the draft, second booking the rosters. Rules and talent pool here: http://placetobenation.com/where-the-big-boys-play-50-1990-fantasy-draft-rules/

 

I believe another podcast did this concept again (with our permission to copy the idea) only the date was later.

 

It might have been long enough that we do another one soon. Will have to see how much interest there is around it.

The Pro-Wrestling Super Show did it with current talent last year.

 

 

Oh cool! I'll check these out.

 

I like the idea of doing it during the territory days. More room to play and stuff to think about. 90s and current scene are so much more limited for obvious reasons.

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Re-reading this thread I kinda want to change my vote from Ted to Rude. The "booker's dream" picture that Parv painted of Dibiase kinda makes me think of Ted as a spineless corporate yes man. Whereas Rude's refusal to job to Hogan is my kinda crazy. :)

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As to who I'd want in my promotion, probably Ted. Rude struck me at the time, and still strikes me, as often a pain in the rear with an ego that increased over time. I recall laughing with Dave over Rude emphatically telling people in WCW that he'd never job for Hogan after Hulk arrived in the company. Ted was reliable, and versatile. If you're running a company, you could do more with him, move him up and down, etc.

 

On Rude as a trouble maker: Not sure why I remember this but after Rex King died, Meltzer mentioned that King had a reputation as a "trouble maker" that didn't know when to shut up. He'd stand up for himself and for the rest of the guys all the time but because he wasn't a star he was a "trouble maker who didn't know his role". Rude would do exactly the same thing but because he was a star he was a "stand up guy with balls to say screw you to the system". He also was one of the few who didn't remain quiet during the Montreal stuff.

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Re-reading this thread I kinda want to change my vote from Ted to Rude. The "booker's dream" picture that Parv painted of Dibiase kinda makes me think of Ted as a spineless corporate yes man. Whereas Rude's refusal to job to Hogan is my kinda crazy. :)

There's different ways of painting it. "Spineless corporate man" or "company man" is one way to paint it.

 

"Loyal soldier who'd go to the wall for you" puts a different inflection on it. Ted came up in tough places like Amarillo and endured working for Watts, the hardest of task masters. And then Vince, also a very demanding boss. Rude couldn't have taken it, and didn't. So who is the more spineless? Who can you count on when the chips are down and the shit hits the fan?

 

There's two ways of looking at that.

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Re-reading this thread I kinda want to change my vote from Ted to Rude. The "booker's dream" picture that Parv painted of Dibiase kinda makes me think of Ted as a spineless corporate yes man. Whereas Rude's refusal to job to Hogan is my kinda crazy. :)

There's different ways of painting it. "Spineless corporate man" or "company man" is one way to paint it.

 

"Loyal soldier who'd go to the wall for you" puts a different inflection on it. Ted came up in tough places like Amarillo and endured working for Watts, the hardest of task masters. And then Vince, also a very demanding boss. Rude couldn't have taken it, and didn't. So who is the more spineless? Who can you count on when the chips are down and the shit hits the fan?

 

There's two ways of looking at that.

 

Interesting.

 

With wrestling, you always get a sense of us v them when it comes to wrestlers/promoters.

 

I agree Ted in a 9 to 5 world would be a model employee. In the wild west, traveling circus world of rasslin' though, I think Rude's attitude works better and garners more respect.

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I don't think you're right Mick. Ted has maximum respect in the business, total. Whereas you don't see a lot of guys talking up Rude.

 

I just made the post in the Flair podcast thread, but look at the list of heatseekers. Brody. Luger. Sid. Warrior. The latter three in particular have zero respect from anyone.

 

Terry Funk in his book repeatedly talks about wanting to be a good and loyal soldier. His first loyalty was to the NWA. Then to Giant Baba.

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Maximum respect in the business, yeah. But what about self respect, standing up for yourself - that sort of thing?

 

I imagine we come at this from entirely different ends of the spectrum Parv but I side with warrior over Vince on a lot of things. This is a cut-throat, sleazy way to make a living at times, and Vince has rewarded people time and again for standing up to him by throwing money at them to come back.

 

Again, in 9 to 5 world, reprehensible. But here.....

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Ha ha, let's not get too political Mick. I've been accused of always siding with The Man many times. ;)

 

I think guys like Ted, Flair, Arn etc. are better for the business than guys like Sid, Brody, Warrior. If everyone was like the latter guys, then how would anyone ever get over?

 

Vince might reward Warrior short-term so his PPV goes well, but then he'd immediately fire him, blackball him, and years later release childish DVDs desecrating his legacy.

 

Whereas the soliders get Hall of Fame treatment, guest spots, etc. etc., so long-term it paid off to be a good soldier.

 

If you give too much power to the boys, what you get is late 90s WCW. It's why Vince now has a monopoly.

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I find the whole argument to be somehow both pedantic and void of nuance, but generally speaking, wrestling needs fewer “company men” and more rebels who speak up to management and throw appliances in pools. Calling Flair a “company man” who’d do what he was told is too selective a view of Flair, given both his ace status and clashes with his bookers through the 90s. As is using Sid and Warrior as models of disagreeing with management. What about Austin, Foley, Bret, Shawn, HHH, and the countless others who argued to the benefit of their careers? It’s also false to say that “you don’t see a lot of guys talking up Rude.” He's praised often by his peers.

Loyalty is admirable at certain times, but it’s silly to argue for or against it as any sort of all-encompassing concept. Rude thought highly of himself, and he may well have been a pain to work with at times. But look at the examples raised. He was wise/brave to call BS on Montreal. While not wanting to job to Hogan may have hurt his wallet, there’s more to life than your wallet. Showing backbone in that instance may well have helped in moving up the WCW ladder. He was correct in viewing himself as a rising star who shouldn’t have lost a career-making feud. And correct in thinking Hogan’s ego and endless insistence on winning to be a problem, one that plagued the industry for years to come. Hogan was the bigger star (if you wanna argue that his egotism was more justified than Rude’s), but Hulk’s selfishness was worse for the business longterm.

 

Rude bragging about not wanting to job to Hogan is not at all the same thing as late 90s WCW. A cordial relationship in which a boss respects employees enough to appreciate constructive criticism is not the same thing as Nash's idiocy. No one's suggesting that Bischoff being a buffoon who threw around Turner's money to appease workers he was friends with and/or scared of is a sound business model.

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As to who I'd want in my promotion, probably Ted. Rude struck me at the time, and still strikes me, as often a pain in the rear with an ego that increased over time. I recall laughing with Dave over Rude emphatically telling people in WCW that he'd never job for Hogan after Hulk arrived in the company. Ted was reliable, and versatile. If you're running a company, you could do more with him, move him up and down, etc.

 

On Rude as a trouble maker: Not sure why I remember this but after Rex King died, Meltzer mentioned that King had a reputation as a "trouble maker" that didn't know when to shut up. He'd stand up for himself and for the rest of the guys all the time but because he wasn't a star he was a "trouble maker who didn't know his role". Rude would do exactly the same thing but because he was a star he was a "stand up guy with balls to say screw you to the system". He also was one of the few who didn't remain quiet during the Montreal stuff.

 

 

Wouldn't disagree with this.

 

My point was more in the sense that when Rude got to a certain level, he wasn't easy for management to deal with. Of course management was Vince and Eric, who are a pair of assholes themselves.

 

Ted never seemed to have major issues with management, and certainly worked with a wide range of them. He was a guy at the very top of the business in his 1988 run. He came down from that, and remained a useful guy to the promotion for more than another three years. He was up and down before that in Wattsville and Georgia and even the WWF in the 70s.

 

If things are close, it's something that I'd look at: who would I rather have around for 5-10 years as I worked him up and down. With Rude and Ted, things are reasonable close. Rude has some positives, Ted has some positive.

 

Ted just strikes me as more reliable and versatile, and you could do more with him moving him up and down without worrying about him being a dick or jumping ship.

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The mom of one of my high school friends went to high school w/ Rude. She said at parties he'd get drunk and start throwing kitchen appliances into the swimming pool.

 

Can I change my vote after reading this?

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Calling Flair a “company man” who’d do what he was told is too selective a view of Flair, given both his ace status and clashes with his bookers through the 90s.

Flair in the 90s is a strange case because he clashed with people who he probably felt had no business being in the business (see: Jim Herd, Eric Bischoff). I also think that he did see Jim Crockett Jr as the big boss in the same way he might have seen Vince, or back in the day Sam Muchnick / Eddie Graham / or any of the old NWA mafia guys. And even in the late 90s, he'd do jobs and put people over.

 

But this says more about their respective management styles. Guys who tried to be one of the boys (Jim Crockett Jr / Eric) or those who were literally clueless about the business (Herd), were people who Flair wouldn't take shit from. But even our ultimate "company man", DiBiase, clashed with Eric Biscoff. A lot of the old pros did, because the lunatics were running the asylum.

 

As to the rest of your post, it's well-thought out and sensible. And I can see why people want more rebels now in 2015, when most of the locker-room seem to be company men and Vince goes on Austin's podcast and calls them all millenials who lack ambition. I can see it. But the "nuance" is that most people aren't hard extremes. Steve Austin wasn't really a "rebel", he'd stand up for shit he believed in but MOST of the time he'd do his job. Bret was the same. 9 tens out of 10, he's going to go out there and do what is expected of him. And that helps with their equity if they ever do make a stand. Warrior, Sid ... The Road Warriors ... any of the real guys who were difficult to do business with, didn't deserve that because with them it's always a case of "fool me once, fool me twice".

 

I agree also that Hogan was ultimately bad for business at the tail end of WCW. All of those guys who were on guaranteed contracts with creative control who refused to job were bad for business.

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His first power play was before Herd was brought in to run the company, and aimed at Dusty.

 

Ric is of course Our Hero, so anything he did was cool because it was always aimed at The Bad Guys who wanted to screw him. Or at least that was all of our thinking back in the 80s and 90s when Ric walked on water.

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I do think he harmed Lex Luger's career. But of the list of guys who were difficult to do business with, Flair doesn't even make the top 500. I mean was he wrong to be against Dusty at that moment? I don't think so.

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I would have done the same thing as Ric leading into Starcade 1988. Probably the same thing as Ric in 1990. I probably would have handled 1991 differently. The stuff later in the 90s are harder to say since I would have preferred to have been retired as an active wrestler by then if I were Ric (i.e. not have been such a dumbfuck with my money).

 

I think the general point people make with Ric's several times of going against Management is that he's not a saint in that regards relative to, say, Bret's invoking Creative Control that was in his contract. Ric did it in back-to-back years, while in 1988 simply went above his bosses head in a power play that he won. There were people, including Ric and a number of Flair Fans back in the day, who thought what Bret did was pure evil. They didn't take kindly to having Our Hero's prior examples being referenced.

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Certainly not as much as Brody, Sid and Warrior, though they all were assholes in different ways.

 

Road Warriors & Lex were different beasts, and I wouldn't even call then heatseekers.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with having either Bret or Ric in a promotion that I ran.

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