W2BTD Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I mean the building has long been sold out already so it makes sense not to give anything away. I'm more concerned about the booking of their upper midcarders, which has been abysmal in this tournament. Naito, Goto, & Shibata have come out of this tour far stronger than they entered it. People make way too much of random losses in a league and lose sight of the big picture sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I can see Naito because he delivered some strong performances that got his new character over, even though the losses (especially coming at the end of the tournament) unquestionably hurt him. Goto definitely, he got a big win and his losses came to credible guys. Shibata and Ibushi have had their momentum stalled by (kayfabe) underwhelming performances and I really can't see how you can argue otherwise. Even if you think every guy mentioned came out stronger than they went in, do you disagree that they would have come out even stronger still had they not suffered those random losses? And that the benefits of that would outweigh, say, whatever the hell the benefits of giving Gallows wins over Naito and Shibata are? Also setting aside whether it's bad business or not, I hate the "pecking order doesn't matter and anyone can lose to anyone else" approach on an aesthetic level. There's not even really any surprise factor to it any more since you know everyone is going to take at least 2 losses and everyone other than Honma is going to achieve some minimum level of success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 That's the G1 though. You can go through any year and find those kinds of losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Today's main event was fantastic. Might be the match of the tournament for me. After watching both once I think I liked it more than Tanahashi/AJ as they did the same methodical build but managed to keep it more engaging all the way through. They did less stuff that annoyed me than AJ/Tanahashi and the finishing stretch was just as great as you'd expect from Nakamura, who may be the current master of finishing stretches. Hell he's probably the best in the world period when he turns it on, it's just unfortunate that's not more than a few times a year these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W2BTD Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I can see Naito because he delivered some strong performances that got his new character over, even though the losses (especially coming at the end of the tournament) unquestionably hurt him. Goto definitely, he got a big win and his losses came to credible guys. Shibata and Ibushi have had their momentum stalled by (kayfabe) underwhelming performances and I really can't see how you can argue otherwise. Even if you think every guy mentioned came out stronger than they went in, do you disagree that they would have come out even stronger still had they not suffered those random losses? And that the benefits of that would outweigh, say, whatever the hell the benefits of giving Gallows wins over Naito and Shibata are? Also setting aside whether it's bad business or not, I hate the "pecking order doesn't matter and anyone can lose to anyone else" approach on an aesthetic level. There's not even really any surprise factor to it any more since you know everyone is going to take at least 2 losses and everyone other than Honma is going to achieve some minimum level of success. I would have had Naito beat Doc and then lose to Tenzan to knock him out. The Tenzan loss was set up at the presser with Naito disrespecting him right on through during the match. It was pretty much a given Tenzan was beating him. The Doc loss is a head scratcher, but at the end of the day nobody is going to remember it in a month. All anybody is ever going to remember about Naito from this G1 is how he broke out with a new gimmick and beat Tanahashi, AJ, & Ibushi. The only loss that was really stupid was Honman losing to Yujiro. Once Honma finally won the big one, I don't see the point of losing to Yujiro. Had Honma not beaten Ishii, I wouldn't care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 Yeah, that's actually much worse booking than the "Benoit/Malenko beating Adams/Horace" scenario that I had imagined, which was boring but at least logical via their stories through the year. Honma beating Ishii and Takahashi is fine, but like, doesn't that just make the Honma-Ishii match for the NEVER title in February seem even sillier? I guess if you're not working my Dylan tribute gimmick of wanting Komatsu and White to main event WK then those things aren't going to stand out as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I've been playing catch up the last few days, so somewhat lumping everything together: AJ/Tanahashi is the best match to date, and the only one I was really impressed with. I thought they did a good job maintaining Tana as underdog, and his selling (other than the speed-up-the-ropes for the HFF which I'll never get) was stronger than NJ mains tend to have these days. Nakamura/Okada didn't do nearly as much for me, and they wasted two great spots (the DDT on the floor is fairly standard for Okada but the tombstone should've been used far, far more effectively than it was). I didn't find the no selling in Shibata/Ibushi as egregious as some have - the whole match was "my dick's bigger than yours". I don't like it, and regardless of his positioning Ibushi should never be doing those kind of matches, but they were no-selling everything else just about so... Honma/Ishii was pretty fun, though Honma isn't the guy to be doing the Kobashi/Kensuke spot with. Michael Elgin has absolutely-fucking-Johnny-Ace-bad facial expressions and I'm amazed that hasn't been mentioned yet. The running powerbomb into the rail on today's show is quite possibly the most wasted spot I've ever seen. Nor has Elgin learned that Kobashi used his apron spots as big transitions not as hope-spot-cut-offs when the guy hitting the spot already has the momentum/advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 15, 2015 Report Share Posted August 15, 2015 I'm not much of a fan of the modern style big dumb bomb-throwing turn-taking sprint that has become Ishii's bread and butter this year (I think his most praised matches last year were a little smarter) but the match with Elgin was the best one I've seen in some time, largely because Ishii sold most of the way and he's great at selling. Elgin's control segment was excessive, but for me not insufferably so, although it was perhaps dangerously close. There was a lack of tedious extended strike exchanges, and the spot with Elgin leaning into Ishii's elbows was actually great. The no-sell and one-count spots that are almost never used well made some degree of sense as Elgin had taken very little damage thus far. They didn't go too long. Can't complain too much. I do question the wisdom of having midcard guys take so much punishment and kick out of so much stuff though. If Ishii is so tough, why isn't he the best guy in the promotion? This is just part of a larger complaint I often have with NJPW that the matches aren't worked in a way that reflects the booking - too much 50/50 work between guys that are way apart on the tier list and too many epic tough-guy performances from guys that, in kayfabe, shouldn't be capable of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stomperspc Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Nakamura/Tanahashi had an interesting lay out and I think it was a very good lay out as well. Hard to tell for sure at 5:30 in the morning. There were the usual tenuous Tanahashi spots. Structurally I thought the match was exactly how it should be and they dealt with the long match time in a very logical, effective manner. A lot of people are going to go ***** on it I'd imagine and at the very least, I can see how they would arrive at that. So I am thinking Nakamura/Goto in October for the IC title coming off of Nakamura beating Goto during the tournament, leading to Nakamura/Styles at the Dome for the IC title? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted August 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I felt for sure they would repeat the top two main events of the last WK but Nakamura/Styles sounds like a possibility now. Nakamura/Goto again though is a match that needs to go away. I was half watching the G-1 final so it needs a rewatch but it looked damn good from what I have seen and could be my favorite Nakamura/Tana match which is a series I have fairly disappointed by in the past besides the Invasion Attack match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jmare007 Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Watched the final.Very good match. Shinsuke's spotty selling bothered me though, don't know why they worked the knee when Swagamura wasn't going to change his offense and just pull off the same move without any struggle even though Tana worked it pretty damn well. It was a bummer because they teased working Shinsuke's injured elbow, which could've been much better (more drama and doesn't mess with Nakamura's offense). Watched it unspoiled and didn't really buy into the nearfalls, at no point I thought Tana was losing, it was worked very similar to a Cena "epic" actually. Having said all that, the match was good enough for me to pay attention for 30+ minutes, that's very high praise for modern puro.I don't give a fuck about another "classic showdown" between Okada and Tanahashi. Shit's tired and I'm getting more and more bored about the booking focusing around 3 people for so damn long and with pretty much the same damn story without much nuance or change to it. Okada will "finally" surpass Tanahashi at WK 10 (even though he already did that in 2013, but people tend to forget that) when he should've done that THIS year. The whole "Okada will have to regroup and start all over again" epic angle that some people claimed we were going to witness never really happened.It's frustrating because they've done a pretty good job establishing the uppermidcard as legit threats, but they never pull the trigger on them. I would LOVE for Tana to lose his shot in October, it would be an upset and a breath of fresh air but that's never going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Enthusiast Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Tanahashi wins LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I thought Nakamura/Tanahashi was an excellent match. I've been in the camp that the limb selling in these NJPW matches where the guy continues to use the limb is bad, but I think I'm evolving my position. At this point it's clearly not a product of laziness or forgetfulness, it's an intentional move that represents a different approach to limb psychology. I think of lucha and how you see guys bump off stuff that isn't bumped off in American or Japanese wrestling, how moves can finish a fall that never would in American and Japanese wrestling, and how we accept those differences because lucha has its own psychology, and as long as it's internally consistent it's fine. Is this really any different? Hell, it's accepted that guys don't sell limbs by acting like they're completely unable to use them in shoot style, so why does it always have to be done in pro style? Now if you think it's an inferior approach to psychology and can justify why then I think that's fine, but I think you have to accept that it is a different approach and not judge the matches by their failure to adhere to a psychological standard that the promotion as a whole doesn't even observe. I'm struggling to see the difference between doing that and, say, complaining about guys sitting in submissions that would be instant tapouts in lucha, or the DDT not being a devastating finishing move these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJH Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 The importance of limb-selling is greatly overrated. As overrated as working a body part is overused. In most cases it's just a bullshit way to fill time, and it should never be the sole focus of a match. We've went over this before (I'd guess in relation to Sammy/Ohtani 1/96), and whilst I understand from a wrestler's perspective that focusing an attack on the leg, the arm, whatever, is the easiest way to focus your control, and to beef up the offence of a guy otherwise limited, it's... it wasn't a major "plot point" in Nakamura/Tanahashi, and Nakamura shouldn't have his primary offence inhibited by a smattering of leg attacks, he's one of the toughest guys in the promotion, and whilst, sure, sell it afterwards, it hurts him to use the knee, it's damn sure gonna hurt Tanahashi more. Work Hansen's arm all day, he'll still swing the lariat, and you'll still be KTFO for the extra five or so seconds it takes him to cover you. As for the match otherwise... it didn't do much for me. It was entertaining, and hardly bad, but I didn't connect to anything they were doing. I got no sense of one being the favourite at any point, I didn't pick up on any real structure or order other than back-and-forth, the odd leg spot, whatever. I mean it's fine to portray than as evenly matched, but whereas, say, Elgin/Ishii had stupidly bigger spots than they got anything from, this needed such a big spot, say around the 20-minute mark since they went, what, 33? and build your climax through that (one guy finally has the advantage, the other guy is hanging on, trying to fight back, and he either pulls out the comeback or he doesn't). And there's dozens of ways you can work through that finish. This had none of that (or I didn't pick up on any), it's just a case of pick your guy and hope he wins. It's the - I hasten to use the word and we've been there countless times - self-conscious-epic 101. Worked for their crowd, worked for Meltzer et al... but did nothing for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 As much as I want to see AJ/Nakamura, it feels like a real waste of a year's worth of booking if nobody but AJ, Nakamura, Tanahashi and Okada is in the main and semimain at the Dome... but that seems like it could be the direction they're going right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 On limb selling/psych, all styles have their quirks, and it's okay to acknowledge that, but not all styles are created equally. I will say more later, but for now, I'll just note that all of my opinions on New Japan are now scientifically tested fact, based on my victory in the VoicesOfWrestling.com G1 pick em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Congrats buddy, your cred has never been higher. This just proves your higher understanding of NJPW's booking. Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Loved Nak-Tanahashi and there are not enough snowflakes to throw at it. Didn't even realize it ran over 30 minutes. Absolutely flew by. Serious MOTYC and far and away their best match ever. If that isn't a top 3 match of the year for me the next 4.5 months will be awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pol Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 After rewatching the main event I feel like, at least of the stuff I've seen, it's the best NJPW match of the Bushiroad era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Night 18 Takahashi vs Honma A fun little bout where Takahashi's girl is over more in my living room than Takahashi. Though the loss by Honma was a why moment. 2 3/4* Ishii vs Elgin A battle to start. It had the 2 toughest guys in the yard vibe to it. Watching Elgin man handle Ishii is great, and allows Ishii to do something he's pretty good at and sell. Elgin had me grasp at his stiff as hell clothesline followed by a Blackhole Slam. The Buckle Bomb into the guard rail was sick shit. I loved this match 4* Goto vs Nagata Some crisp mat wrestling to start. Goto kicked the floating rib injury. I'm liking the story of working Nagata's injury. Even Nagata's own kicks hurt the rib. Nagata winning was a feel good moment. 3 1/2* Anderson vs Kojima This has a lot of energy right off the bat. Anderson starts a heat segment right at Jump Street. Kojima mounts a comeback. It's short lived while Anderson exerts his dominance. Kojima turns the tide again with a DDT on the apron. Chop exchange on the floor. Thought Anderson would have enough sense to sell the DDT. The finishing run was fun enough. 2 3/4* Okada vs Nakamura How fast the teasing of finishers was early on was ridiculous. We getting a feeling out process on the mat. Okada drop kick on the floor, followed by his draping DDT. Spinning neck breaker. Typical Okada game plan of working the neck. Okada lifting Nakamura moves. Again Okada staying on the neck. Nakamura attempts a comeback. Now Nak's comeback is aimed at Okada's neck. Okada, cuts him off. Nakamura turns the tables. Okada counters with Red Ink. Nakamura counters with a run of offense. We are getting a back and forth run to the stretch. Both guys laying it on the line. Loved the drama of the finish. 4 1/4* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 G1 Finals Opens with a Delirious promo. ROH coming to Japan in 2016. I guess it will be similar to the CMLL tour. David Finlay, Mascara Dorada & Ryusuke Taguchi vs. Jushin Thunder Liger, Sho Tanaka & Yohei Komatsu This is a super fun all action opener. Everything looks good. A good way to kick off a show. 3* TenKoji (Hiroyoshi Tenzan & Satoshi Kojima) & Captain New Japan vs. Jay White, Manabu Nakanishi & Yuji Nagata This is another solid 6 man that gets people on the card- 2 1/2* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert S Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 For those who watched the whole G-1: What would you say are the top 5 or must see or whatever matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 For those who watched the whole G-1: What would you say are the top 5 or must see or whatever matches? Tanahashi vs. Ibushi Ibushi vs. Styles Styles vs Tanahashi Ishii vs. Elgin Nakamura vs. Okada Tanahashi vs. Nakamura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjaminkicks Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I would add Shibata vs. Styles and Tanahashi as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Shibata/Ibushi Shibata/Naito Nakamura/Ishii Nakamura/Honma Ishii/Honma Ishii/Elgin Nakamura/Tanahashi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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