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Grimmas

Naruki Doi & Masato Yoshino

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Good input, Bill.

 

Top 10 contender for me. Currently going through a bunch of their matches on my Dragon Gate review blog. They had so many great matches and were able to make them all feel just a little bit different. Their last run in 2012 for WORLD-1 International didn't do anything for me, but between their Muscle Outlawz stuff and their WORLD-1 stuff, they could crack my Top 10 and most likely will.

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

 

I know, I know. I'm just messing around. I totally understand they aren't your cup of tea.

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

 

 

Shit people say. Especially in this case.

 

Moving fast doesn't equal lack of structure or meaning.

 

Legit question, how many Speed Muscle matches have you seen? I'm guessing very few, because I don't buy that you are sitting around watching random 2009 DG Infinity episodes, and your complaints don't really correlate with their better matches, which do not lack structure or meaning behind what is being done.

 

"Ugh, no." isn't a response that flies on this forum, and you know that. Shame on you. Imagine if I pulled that routine in the Dundee/Lawler thread. InYourCase was right for calling you out, man. If that was all you had to contribute, you were probably better off not posting in this thread. If you want to bury them, break down some specifics or pick a match and bury them

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

 

 

Shit people say. Especially in this case.

 

Moving fast doesn't equal lack of structure or meaning.

 

Legit question, how many Speed Muscle matches have you seen? I'm guessing very few, because I don't buy that you are sitting around watching random 2009 DG Infinity episodes, and your complaints don't really correlate with their better matches, which do not lack structure or meaning behind what is being done.

 

"Ugh, no." isn't a response that flies on this forum, and you know that. Shame on you. Imagine if I pulled that routine in the Dundee/Lawler thread. InYourCase was right for calling you out, man. If that was all you had to contribute, you were probably better off not posting in this thread. If you want to bury them, break down some specifics or pick a match and bury them

 

 

That's rich coming from someone who routinely criticizes matches with the laziest critique possible, "it's so boring." And then offers nothing else of any substance besides said lazy critique.

 

I offered more thoughts after Case prodded for more, and they are legitimate thoughts. I don't need to offer specifics on any match because I've found them to be universal in just about every of the 20 or so tag matches I've seen from Yoshino/Doi. They are representative of the greater Dragon Gate style; all flash and no substance. They run through spots just so they can get to the next spot. They sell in the moment but ignore said selling when it comes time to move to the next spot. There isn't any tag structure to their matches, rather a collection of spots that exist as some sort of blob of a tag match. It's all such shit and it's all they know how to do.

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

 

 

Shit people say. Especially in this case.

 

Moving fast doesn't equal lack of structure or meaning.

 

Legit question, how many Speed Muscle matches have you seen? I'm guessing very few, because I don't buy that you are sitting around watching random 2009 DG Infinity episodes, and your complaints don't really correlate with their better matches, which do not lack structure or meaning behind what is being done.

 

"Ugh, no." isn't a response that flies on this forum, and you know that. Shame on you. Imagine if I pulled that routine in the Dundee/Lawler thread. InYourCase was right for calling you out, man. If that was all you had to contribute, you were probably better off not posting in this thread. If you want to bury them, break down some specifics or pick a match and bury them

 

 

That's rich coming from someone who routinely criticizes matches with the laziest critique possible, "it's so boring." And then offers nothing else of any substance besides said lazy critique.

 

I offered more thoughts after Case prodded for more, and they are legitimate thoughts. I don't need to offer specifics on any match because I've found them to be universal in just about every of the 20 or so tag matches I've seen from Yoshino/Doi. They are representative of the greater Dragon Gate style; all flash and no substance. They run through spots just so they can get to the next spot. They sell in the moment but ignore said selling when it comes time to move to the next spot. There isn't any tag structure to their matches, rather a collection of spots that exist as some sort of blob of a tag match. It's all such shit and it's all they know how to do.

 

 

Look man, I don't care whether you like the tag team or don't like the tag team, but I have to call bullshit on the "20 or so tag matches" you've supposedly seen from Yoshino/Doi.

 

I'm not even sure I'VE seen 20 of their matches, and i'm an avid DG watcher & fan. They have roughly 40 matches that have made tape, half of which are hard to find bouts from 2005-2008 that I seriously doubt you tape traded/downloaded and watched in real time, plus two short bouts from TNA. As someone who admittedly HATES Dragon Gate, and with how hard it is to find the early stuff, I find it extremely hard to believe that you've done the kind of leg work to seek out hard to find stuff in a style you hate to have seen roughly half of their available matches. That, combined with your common stereotypical description of a Dragon Gate match above, when the Speed Muscle team very often worked traditionally structured tag bouts, leads me to believe that you are completely full of shit here.

 

You review matches in multiple places. Do you have any write ups of Speed Muscle, a team you apparently actively seek out enough to have seen half of their bouts, even though you think they're terrible, readily available?

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I'm sure we all have our styles we care for about as much as Bill does the DG style. regardless of what style it is, it's going to drive us nuts trying to watch it. Arguing about that is hardly worth the time or effort.

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Good input, Bill.

 

What do you want me to say man? I think they're terrible in every possible way. Spotty no selling bullshit from bell to bell that drives me nuts. Terrible tag match structure with little to no meaning behind moves and such. You get the point...

 

 

Shit people say. Especially in this case.

 

Moving fast doesn't equal lack of structure or meaning.

 

Legit question, how many Speed Muscle matches have you seen? I'm guessing very few, because I don't buy that you are sitting around watching random 2009 DG Infinity episodes, and your complaints don't really correlate with their better matches, which do not lack structure or meaning behind what is being done.

 

"Ugh, no." isn't a response that flies on this forum, and you know that. Shame on you. Imagine if I pulled that routine in the Dundee/Lawler thread. InYourCase was right for calling you out, man. If that was all you had to contribute, you were probably better off not posting in this thread. If you want to bury them, break down some specifics or pick a match and bury them

 

 

That's rich coming from someone who routinely criticizes matches with the laziest critique possible, "it's so boring." And then offers nothing else of any substance besides said lazy critique.

 

I offered more thoughts after Case prodded for more, and they are legitimate thoughts. I don't need to offer specifics on any match because I've found them to be universal in just about every of the 20 or so tag matches I've seen from Yoshino/Doi. They are representative of the greater Dragon Gate style; all flash and no substance. They run through spots just so they can get to the next spot. They sell in the moment but ignore said selling when it comes time to move to the next spot. There isn't any tag structure to their matches, rather a collection of spots that exist as some sort of blob of a tag match. It's all such shit and it's all they know how to do.

 

 

Look man, I don't care whether you like the tag team or don't like the tag team, but I have to call bullshit on the "20 or so tag matches" you've supposedly seen from Yoshino/Doi.

 

I'm not even sure I'VE seen 20 of their matches, and i'm an avid DG watcher & fan. They have roughly 40 matches that have made tape, half of which are hard to find bouts from 2005-2008 that I seriously doubt you tape traded/downloaded and watched in real time, plus two short bouts from TNA. As someone who admittedly HATES Dragon Gate, and with how hard it is to find the early stuff, I find it extremely hard to believe that you've done the kind of leg work to seek out hard to find stuff in a style you hate to have seen roughly half of their available matches. That, combined with your common stereotypical description of a Dragon Gate match above, when the Speed Muscle team very often worked traditionally structured tag bouts, leads me to believe that you are completely full of shit here.

 

You review matches in multiple places. Do you have any write ups of Speed Muscle, a team you apparently actively seek out enough to have seen half of their bouts, even though you think they're terrible, readily available?

 

 

Maybe I was off on my number. Have no problem admitting it if I was. They aren't in any database I keep because I've never seen a match from them I thought was above ** to **1/2, and I don't keep track of those matches. Maybe it's only ten, I thought it was around 20. That's my fault for tossing a number out there I thought was right without better fact checking said number first. 10-12 sounds more likely based on all the info you've provided.

 

And, honestly seeing Dragon Gate isn't that hard when people are constantly sending it to you to watch. Outside of Case no one does that much these days (and I don't mind when Case does), but when I first got back into watching wrestling lots of people were always suggesting or sending me Dragon Gate to watch. It's a relatively hot product in certain circles and so it was heavily suggested to me early on. I've seen far more DG than I would ever have cared to. But, people suggest something for me to watch and I will check it out and give it a fair shake. So, people like DG and they send it to me or suggest that I watch it and I watch it because I have no problem watching it. I end up hating it most of the time, as is the case with all the Doi & Yoshino I've seen, but that's just the way it is.

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