Slasher Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I am not sure making Charlotte "invincible" would have been the right move to make. I actually think if she has to be a babyface, they should book her like her father the few times he was a babyface in JCP, someone with a lot of fire and knowing how to escape with wins by the skin of her teeth. Have them sell the idea that she is always evolving and learning to be a great pro wrestler. Someone that if she makes a mistake that time in a match, she is not ever going to make that mistake again. But I think she needs to bump more for the heels to put that story over and kind of help hide her weaknesses as a wrestler technique-wise. I realize this is not how Triple H and Stephanie wants to portray her but I think this way would have gotten fans behind her more. This also means though that she wouldn't be in a position to win the title yet, but that to me is not a problem. Right now Sasha Banks deserves the title more anyways and Charlotte can be put on track to win her firat championship at Wrestlemania or next year's Summerslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 Charlotte is so tall and physically imposing that I don't think working from underneath would have done her any good. She's not a good enough worker to work like a female version of Goldberg or the Road Warriors, although I do think that's the kind of work that would best match her look. When she's a foot taller than just about every other woman in the division, it's hard to book her as an underdog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted November 19, 2015 Report Share Posted November 19, 2015 I think Sasha should eventually be a bad ass babyface actually. Nobody really wants to boo her anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Was Sunny really a face? I guess during the LOD run she was, but the only time she was a face was 97 where she didn't really do anything at all related to any actual stories or wrestlers. Â I could be wrong on this too, but I don't think Sunny ever wrestled a single match in the WWF. Anyone know if this is correct or not? Â Michelle McCool is a great comparison actually but at least that was only on Smackdown. Â I meant 'face' as in 'poster boy' and not as in 'babyface'. I should have used a different word as one a wrestling board the word 'face' can easily be viwed another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Charlotte is so tall and physically imposing that I don't think working from underneath would have done her any good. She's not a good enough worker to work like a female version of Goldberg or the Road Warriors, although I do think that's the kind of work that would best match her look. When she's a foot taller than just about every other woman in the division, it's hard to book her as an underdog. Maybe you are right about her size being a problem for her if she is an underdog but I think (but could be wrong on this) that the fans who have any interest in what the women are doing realizes that Charlotte is one of the greener wrestlers of the bunch. Maybe she doesn't have to be a physical underdog but maybe she would have struggles with women who have a reputation for being good wrestlers like Sasha or Paige or even Becky Lynch. I mean there are different kinds of pushes or lack thereof for people with different sizes. Look at Bad News Barrett. He is one of tbe taller guys in the company but no one picks him to win in a match against someone like Daniel Bryan. I just feel like instead of cramming Charlotte down people's throats the way they have done so, is not a way to get fans into her but if it is a situation where the fans gets to see her improve each week and then it becomes a genuine connection much like sports fans who sees their teams rise through the ranks from a bad team to a promising team with good core of players to a bonafide championship contender to champions. If they want her to be a babyface so badly, they have to do something different here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I think sadly that the ship has sailed. Wrestlers get one chance to be new and she has had hers. They've missed the window to make her a real-life Wonder Woman who gets by on an amazing look and physique and a few "wow" athletic maneuvers. Had her matches been structured the right way and had she been filmed in a way that they've typically filmed wrestlers when they want to show off their height and physique, I think that could have been more than enough to get her over. Â On a side note about how much their booking has regressed over the years, look at how amazing of a job they did getting Joanie Lauer over, who was more limited as a performer than just about anyone currently in the division. Lita got over as a star with a few decent-looking highspots and the right look. This makes the booking of Charlotte more confusing to me. Look at how many times they have done more with less to get someone over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Perhaps its another case of Kevin Dunn being a total hinderance to Triple H and Stephanie's plans? They went from being all about a revolution and got reduced back to the old mindset of "Women be crazy bitches~!" I do agree that the ship has sailed for her. But I wonder if NXT isn't part of the problem. By that I mean she was getting time to train and improve. Her title reign was maintained with a level of care that was always going to be difficult to do on tbe main roster. It is almost like the classic ECW wrestler getting over and getting a big time contract from WWF or WCW and being exposed without the protection that Heyman afforded to them in his promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Chyna and Lita got over interacting with the guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Chyna got over ball shotting guys and never having to answer for her actions to the point where Austin stunnering her at No Way Out is just about the only male on female violence from an era filled with it that I could justify. Since there was no woman who could challenge her and she was basically daring any guy to take his best shot someone doing it was fine. She sold it terribly though. Â Lita got over being the Hardy Boys female friend, being a sort of role model to the teenage girls who seemed to love the Hardy Boys. Putting her against Trish made perfect sense since Trish represented the kind of girl that every average junior and senior high girl would be afraid of, cocky, mean to everyone but with a body hot enough and endowed enough to intimidate other girls and have jock buddies (Test and Albert) all too willing to do her bidding. It was a situation that, in its implications, was something a portion of the audience who never had ANYTHING in stories they could relate to now had something they could relate to. Â Trish got over even more through her interactions with Jericho. Absurd in the details sure, but the basic gist of it was a very believable story and something anyone could relate to. It was the most over Christian has ever been too. Â I think they are afraid to do that now though Johnny. You have a ready made story with John and Nikki and Nikki's smart enough to play the character, the uber hot alpha female girl jock who's dating the quarterback but they have never really come out and said it, just a subtext in her character that's there. Â I agree though interacting them with the guys would help a lot and does not have to involve man on woman violence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 The only way they are ever going to really get the women over is for them to have their own promotion/brand, especially with the amount of women they have under contract now. If they wanted to cut Raw down to 2 hours just give the first hour to the women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomethingSavage Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I don't know. I think there's something to be said about the women having interactions & experiences among the guys. I'm not saying there should be a bunch of mixed tags or anything. But booking & imprisoning the women into their own "universe" feels like an unnecessary restriction. Â Say what you will about her comments on Raw - I thought Paige projected a lot of personality there. She felt more noticeable and seemed to carry herself like a star through that segment, regardless of the material they were working with. Her attitude, her body language, her shit-talking, you name it. She was on point, even when she had to step back & let Charlotte drown in that awkward spot for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 The women that are really over on the main roster (outside of Sasha) are over in part due to male affliation. Natalie gets pops because she rubs the Hart stuff in people's face 24/7. Brie Bella is more over than she should be due to being Bryan's wife (and yes I am not going to ignore Total Divas- but that's not the majority of the crowd). And then of course you have Ric Flair's daughter.  Paige Charlotte Nikki Natalie Brie  Out of the top 6 babyfaces ( this is dicey as Brie/Nikki flip every week), only one of them is 100% over without being associated/jacking a male superworker/legend(s)' shit. Nikki is a curious case as I firmly believe her overness comes down to her looks, Total Divas, and general apathy to anyhing she does as in the grand scheme of things Nikki's gimmick, matches, promos, etc. haven't meant anything in WWE cannon. Longest title reign in Diva history? Didn't she go like 3 months without defending the belt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Meltzer is reporting that the ending segment on Raw was done because the creative team are finding it really hard to get Charlotte over as a babyface FWIW. Â Not sure I agree with Nikki being over totally on her looks. That's sort of right, but it's not. It's more a question of being over on her sexuality and personality. Unlike the other girls who pretty much downplay that element to the point where it's gone, she still acts a bit more like the pre Linda for Senator divas did. Struts around a lot, flaunts her looks, acts like a heel but still shows off to the crowd (and everyone knows a gorgeous girl who's kind of a you know what but still loves the attention) and shows off a lot. Her little things like flexing, doing pushups and sit ups during matches when not taking opponents seriously and in general showing LOTS of personality in the ring helped get her over as opposed to the trained robots like Charlotte she's up against. Maryse got over the same way basically it's not JUST she was hot. Put it this way, she got over by being a human being.. Maybe a lousy one, maybe just an uber hot one but a human being and that's more than most divas outside of NXT show or are allowed to show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Meltzer is reporting that the ending segment on Raw was done because the creative team are finding it really hard to get Charlotte over as a babyface FWIW. Â Maybe they should try putting tough challengers in front of her and then her beating them in a good match with a decisive win for a while? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 I hear you but there is more to it than that. You have to act like a face in some ways. Charlotte either acts like a heel or a robot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 This goes beyond Charlotte, but I think where they often go wrong on things like this is trying to find a way to create mass appeal when they haven't even created local appeal. In theory, they should get wrestlers over with their core audience and create an excitement that grows and expands from that instead of worrying about how to get wrestlers over with masses when they can't even get them over with the audience that is already there. Running before walking and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakeplastictrees Posted November 20, 2015 Report Share Posted November 20, 2015 Charlotte isn't connecting because her gimmick is: My dad is Ric Flair, I had good matches in NXT (which the Raw/Smackdown audiences may or may not have seen), and my brother is dead. Its so fucking meta. What she has been given can only take her so far, at some point-in-time there needs to be more substance to her character and work or else she will not catch on with the fans. Its an up-hill battle for her at this point with the pinkie swears, Ric Flair cosplaying, and being in placed as a robotic/bland face in back-to-back feuds where the other workers are more over. Â WWE wants a tall, white, blonde female as the poster-woman of the company and the company is doing its best to force that narrative despite not a lot of poeple buying into it. Its counter-productive, just like the Eva Marie shit in NXT is counter productive. People in the crowd 'wooing' doesn't mean Charlotte is over as then the match starts people are pretty dead for all her stuff unless becomes the Ric Flair tribute act. She has talent and I want to see her suceed and figure it out, but this 'Reality Era' shit ran by a bunch of carnys who want to still (in some respect) maintain kayfabe, is killing her dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Eva did job and is transitioning into a manager/sidekick role for Nia Jax FWIW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Would a diva that needs to interact with men get over if her gimmick is that of a strong amazon level worker who has a youngish male manager, not to talk for her, but just to run interference and generally being a bodyguard for her? This is a serious question by the way. I am curious to see what you guys think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Bodyguard no. The rest could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted November 21, 2015 Report Share Posted November 21, 2015 Well I think to avoid the male on female violence that the bodyguard would be needed to pay some things off physically. Especially if the woman was antagonizing the male workers. I don't mean a bodyguard in the sense that she would hide behind him when interacting with female rivals as she would be strong enough to stand on her own in that regard. The guy can just be her silent second for the most part but when she is fucking with the men, then he comes in to show ass or to piss the fans off that they don't get an opportunity to see the Dudleys powerbomb her through tables because he intervened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Eva did job and is transitioning into a manager/sidekick role for Nia Jax FWIW. Â They are putting them together as a pair like Emma and Dana Brooke, she is still going to work matches. They have already worked together on house shows a few times. Â Speaking of NXT house shows, they also started putting Sylvester Lefort (Rusev's first NXT manager) with Billie Kay. Â Mayumi Ozaki has been using a guy, Police, as one of her seconds for over a decade now. He's the same size as a lot of joshi workers, plus he's a great stooging heel so he works in the role. Maybe if they used someone whose Brad Maddox size they might be able to create a similar character if they wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellmania Posted November 22, 2015 Report Share Posted November 22, 2015 Rockstar Spud would be perfect in that role if he ever came over from TNA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrainfollower Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 They seem to be slowly turning Charlotte, or at least turning her enough that Becky and everyone can turn on her. I HOPE this is something more than the usual "all women are evil and hate each other" that WWE seems to do nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 They pretty much have no choice but to turn her because she's totally dead as a babyface Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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