2015 WON HOF Ballot Thread

[Dylan Waco]

I've pretty much decided that if Colon and Caras fall off the ballot I'm reverting into being the most obnoxious "no" voter of all time.

[Grimmas]

They need to fix this shit. Colon is a no brainer. Villano III is more deserving than almost anyone. I don't understand why a system exists where tenkoji is even on the ballot and others who should be in are being removed.

[jdw]

The removal for anything other than falling under 5% blows. Don't really know why Dave thought it would be a good idea.

[W2BTD]

The removal for anything other than falling under 5% blows. Don't really know why Dave thought it would be a good idea.

 

It's ballot clutter.

 

What is the point in keeping someone like Curt Hennig on the ballot if he is going to get ~20%-30% in perpetuity? Someone like that, especially if they are deceased or retired for good, is never getting voted in. Plus, the new rule is extremely lenient, in that if you're close (over 50%), you get to stick around anyway, which is very fair.

 

If you haven't gotten to at least 50% in FIFTEEN YEARS, I mean, c'mon. It isn't happening. Let's move on. And this thing is so lenient, that if enough people ask, or if there is new evidence, dave will put you back on anyway after a few years. Not to mention backdooring your way back on the ballot in the Historical bucket if you qualify.

 

I mean, these candidates get a million chances. I really don't understand the point of leaving these cold candidates on the ballot forever. So people can just have the same tired arguments over & over every year? If everyone over 5% was kept on the ballot, it would bloat up to hundreds of names eventually, which would continue to spread votes even thinner among a bunch of candidates that have no chance, leading to diminishing returns of candidates actually being elected. What sense does that make?

[Dylan Waco]

It makes great sense if you think it should be hard to get in

[kjh]

There are some issues with the 50% rule:

 

- American wrestlers have an unfair advantage in the sense that they can get a second bite of the cherry by being considered as a historical candidate, while candidates in other regions don't have that opportunity as there is no historical categories in those regions.

- The clock only starts running down when you are first put on the ballot. It seems odd that Ricki Starr, who few people talked off as a potential Hall of Famer before he died, has another 14 years on the ballot, while someone like V3 has no opportunity of having his case revisited.

- The eligibility criterion becomes even more problematic, as people do add to their Hall of Fame cases past the age of 50.

[kjh]

I understand the cluttered ballot argument, but it really hasn't worked out that way as Dave added almost as many new candidates as were removed by the rule this year, including people who have already fallen off in the past like Bob Ellis and Rocky Johnson, and weak candidates like the Big Show.

[W2BTD]

There are some issues with the 50% rule:

 

- American wrestlers have an unfair advantage in the sense that they can get a second bite of the cherry by being considered as a historical candidate, while candidates in other regions don't have that opportunity as there is no historical categories in those regions.

- The clock only starts running down when you are first put on the ballot. It seems odd that Ricki Starr, who few people talked off as a potential Hall of Famer before he died, has another 14 years on the ballot, while someone like V3 has no opportunity of having his case revisited.

- The eligibility criterion becomes even more problematic, as people do add to their Hall of Fame cases past the age of 50.

 

To me these are all issues with some of the other rules, more so than the 15/50 rules.

 

There should absolutely be historical buckets for every region, or at least one historical bucket for everybody at minimum. Or, eliminate the historical bucket all together.

[W2BTD]

I understand the cluttered ballot argument, but it really hasn't worked out that way as Dave added almost as many new candidates as were removed by the rule this year, including people who have already fallen off in the past like Bob Ellis and Rocky Johnson, and weak candidates like the Big Show.

 

Right, but if we were keeping everybody on who garnered at least 5%, we'd have all of these additions plus the removal of almost no one.

 

I could buy lowering the 50% threshold a little for saving 15 year guys, but 5% seems obscene to me to the point that almost no one would ever get the boot.

[pantherwagner]

Eventually there will probably be a historical Japan/Mexico group, which may lead to other problems. If there's a single historical group you would be creating another hodge podge category. If there are localised Japan and Mexico historical groups some people will complain that it will be an easy way in for some candidates.

 

Villano III should have been in a decade and a half ago. If he's not in, he's never going to get in, no matter what the rules are, because it's not a rule problem it's a voter problem. All the support for Aguayo or Parka worries me because it seems to mostly come from uninformed people who should not be voting in that category and are screwing it up for everybody else (fwiw, I think both should probably be in the HOF in the future).

 

So in a way, guys like Cien Caras, Villano III or Blue Panther need to be in or need to be out. We need to make room for other deserving lucha candidates that nobody will vote for.

[jdw]

Who cares if the ballot is cluttered. Are ballots being handed out to people too stupid to read through 50 names in a category and make a decision?

 

How many matches do people watch in a year to come up with 3 Match of the Year votes? Back when I voted in the year end awards, my number was closer to four digits than two digits. Unlike the HOF Ballot where Dave is nice enough to list all the candidates so that you can look at it in a few seconds, with the years end awards I'd have to try to remember if there was anything back in the prior December that warranted consideration.

 

As far as specifically sifting through a long list of HOF candidates, I sifted through the longest list ever. It wasn't hard, nor was it a chore. It was perfectly fun. There were some mistakes in terms of inclusion and in exclusion, but the number of candidates on the "list" had nothing to do with those mistakes. Selector error. Which has happened in the years since then with smaller lists of candidates, and a considerably more voters.

[goc]

Who cares if the ballot is cluttered. Are ballots being handed out to people too stupid to read through 50 names in a category and make a decision?

I don't find that idea out of the realm of possibility. I've seen a few pretty bad ballots including a professional writer voting for a team that isn't even eligible.

[Grimmas]

The 15/50 rule is insanely stupid when people are added on the ballot so early in their careers.

[kjh]

 

I understand the cluttered ballot argument, but it really hasn't worked out that way as Dave added almost as many new candidates as were removed by the rule this year, including people who have already fallen off in the past like Bob Ellis and Rocky Johnson, and weak candidates like the Big Show.

 

Right, but if we were keeping everybody on who garnered at least 5%, we'd have all of these additions plus the removal of almost no one.

 

I could buy lowering the 50% threshold a little for saving 15 year guys, but 5% seems obscene to me to the point that almost no one would ever get the boot.

 

 

I think 50% is too high, as candidates with a lot of support and could eventually get in are getting booted off. For example, The Andersons placed 6th overall, but still dropped off the ballot. I would probably set it at 35%, as if the candidate crosses that threshold, they are still one of the top 20-25 candidates on the ballot.

[jdw]

 

Who cares if the ballot is cluttered. Are ballots being handed out to people too stupid to read through 50 names in a category and make a decision?

I don't find that idea out of the realm of possibility. I've seen a few pretty bad ballots including a professional writer voting for a team that isn't even eligible.

 

 

That would be an issue with the quality of voter, not with there being too many names on the ballot.

[pantherwagner]

To be fair to Madden, I don't know if this has already been mentioned before but he probably voted for the Andersons because they are still being referenced as people that need 50% of the vote to stay or they will be dropped.

 

John, the main problem with clutter is that if there's a constant 20-30 % of people that will always vote for somebody like Curt Hennig on gut feeling or what not, and hurt the chances of viable candidates like Ivan Koloff. And the last thing we need in the Lucha and Europe sections is more names that somebody clearly unfit to vote in the category may recognise.

[jdw]

There were 13 candidates on the Lucha ballot. That isn't that many candidates. Hell, I voted for more than half of those 13.

 

In turn, there are 12 people on the puroresu ballot, not a one that I'm overly thrilled with as a candidate.

 

The number of candidates isn't a problem.

[RyanClingman]

There were 13 candidates on the Lucha ballot. That isn't that many candidates. Hell, I voted for more than half of those 13.

 

In turn, there are 12 people on the puroresu ballot, not a one that I'm overly thrilled with as a candidate.

 

The number of candidates isn't a problem.

 

I've always understood that the problem with the lucha category is that there are so many deserving candidates that the vote gets split and very few people, if any, get inducted. Is this still the case?

[jdw]

From 2007 to the present, setting aside the old times / historical candidates:

 

Lucha
2009 Konnan
2013 Dr. Wagner
2013 Atlantis

 

Puroresu
2009 Masa Saito
2013 Kensuke Sasaki
2013 Hiroshi Tanahashi

 

U-S-A!
2007 The Rock
2009 The Midnight Express
2010 Chris Jericho
2010 Rey Mysterio, Jr.
2012 John Cena
2014 The Rock 'n' Roll Express

 

Dead Men
2011 Steve Williams

 

Lucha has done okay. Especially considering they haven't had a "current" candidate like Rock, Jericho, Mysterio, Cena and Tanahashi that large chunks of the voters end up thinking are dunker candidates.

[shakla]

The 15/50 rule is insanely stupid when people are added on the ballot so early in their careers.

 

And since people can be added back on the ballot for various reasons, even if they have not added onto their careers. Pedro Morales dropping off was disapointing since he was off the ballot at least 5 years before being back on. No one really knows why he was added back in 2009 or so. A few e-mail requests? Or Dave just felt like it? And he gets put into a new category (Historical) the year he's subject to the 15/50. The rule was implemented rather sloppily.

 

BTW, did anyone ever check if there were any candidates who were on the 2001 ballot who would be in the 15/50 limbo this year? A quick look seems to imply that Villano III may be one, the others were 50%+ from last year.

[thecubsfan]

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES
ABSTAIN

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES
ABSTAIN

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES
ABSTAIN

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES
Perro Aguayo Jr.
Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo
Cien Caras
Karloff Lagarde
Blue Panther
Huracan Ramirez
El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro
Villano III

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES
ABSTAIN

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA CANDIDATES
ABSTAIN

NON-WRESTLERS
ABSTAIN

[kjh]

Dave has just tweeted out the following:

 

Issue won't be out for a few weeks, but 7 new Hall of Famers in 2015. Most newcomers since 2004.

 

It's probably not coincidental that this coincided with last year's 15 year rule ballot purge that removed a combination of serious contenders (Murdoch, The Andersons), those not close but still worth more consideration (Hamada, Morales, Snyder) and no-hopers (Moolah, Snuka, Sakaguchi, etc).

 

So Lesnar, Bryan, Perro Jr. and Nakamura seem like certs from the high number of new HoFs. Eddie Quinn by fiat (as he was supposed to be added to the ballot but wasn't, which is likely a giveaway). Colon may have finally gotten over the hump. Others who have a shot are Caras, Han, Koloff, Lagarde, Assassins, Sharpes, Jerry Jarrett, Jim Crockett Sr., Big Daddy, Apter, LMDM, V3 and Sting.

[shakla]

Based on the ballots posted here, would have to think Okerlund has a shot too.

[kjh]

Maybe Jimmy Hart too. But clearly any non-wrestler who gets in is because Monsoon & Ventura were dropped off the ballot, freeing up space for voters of theirs to choose someone else, because no-one came close last year.

[Happ Hazzard]

Should Okerlunds shamelessly misleading shills for the WCW hotline in the 90s count against his candidacy? I would say yes. But he probably still goes in.