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Heavy Hitters that missed your list


jpchicago23

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I know the lists are never gonna be 100% objective (would be both impossible and a little boring), but Flair is still interesting in this thread to me. I have him high. Really high. I totally get someone not liking him or at least not loving him and dropping him from their top 5, top 10 or even top 20 for whatever reason. But can someone (anyone) seriously make a case for Flair (or Funk, Jumbo, Misawa etc.) not being one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time (that we have a decent amount of footage of)? Since no one is on every single list, someone must have come to that conclusion with these guys. Otherwise it's just a protest vote, which fortunately won't matter much in the big picture, but is just... Oh well... Don't want to hear bad excuses for disliking Flair etc., but damn I'd be interested in the solid, serious, well thought through arguments that 100 guys were better :-)

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I know the lists are never gonna be 100% objective (would be both impossible and a little boring), but Flair is still interesting in this thread to me. I have him high. Really high. I totally get someone not liking him or at least not loving him and dropping him from their top 5, top 10 or even top 20 for whatever reason. But can someone (anyone) seriously make a case for Flair (or Funk, Jumbo, Misawa etc.) not being one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time (that we have a decent amount of footage of)? Since no one is on every single list, someone must have come to that conclusion with these guys. Otherwise it's just a protest vote, which fortunately won't matter much in the big picture, but is just... Oh well... Don't want to hear bad excuses for disliking Flair etc., but damn I'd be interested in the solid, serious, well thought through arguments that 100 guys were better :-)

This is one of the reasons I can't ever abandon the notion of there being a set of common criteria. And extreme cases in my view prove it. No one bats for Jerry Saggs for #1; very few drop Funk, Flair etc out of their 100s

 

It seems to me there are reasons beyond pure subjective judgment that explain that.

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But can someone (anyone) seriously make a case for Flair (or Funk, Jumbo, Misawa etc.) not being one of the 100 greatest wrestlers of all time (that we have a decent amount of footage of)?

 

Oh well... Don't want to hear bad excuses for disliking Flair etc.,

That you mention "bad excuses" is interesting because I've really grown jaded of people judging mexican and japanese wrestling via ridiculous criteria. Yet I'm completely fine with like, goc completely ignoring most japanese wrestling on his list. It's not his thing. He gave it a shot. He'll have about as many lucha guys on his list as I will which is cool. I didn't rank Flair because I don't care for his most famous matches and the style he worked them in. He has some fun brawls but, when I find it I enjoy him vs Jericho from 2002 much more than I do his supposed 40 minute classics, I think it's just time to accept he doesn't do it for me. And people will write off Misawa because they don't like King's Road and people will write off Jumbo because he bores them before he became grumpy just like they'll write off all lucha or shoot style or joshi. Terry Funk is the closest thing we have to a consensus great wrestler which is why I predicted him to finish #1.

 

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Yet I'm completely fine with like, goc completely ignoring most japanese wrestling on his list. It's not his thing. He gave it a shot. He'll have about as many lucha guys on his list as I will which is cool. I didn't rank Flair because I don't care for his most famous matches and the style he worked them in. He has some fun brawls but, when I find it I enjoy him vs Jericho from 2002 much more than I do his supposed 40 minute classics, I think it's just time to accept he doesn't do it for me. And people will write off Misawa because they don't like King's Road and people will write off Jumbo because he bores them before he became grumpy just like they'll write off all lucha or shoot style or joshi. Terry Funk is the closest thing we have to a consensus great wrestler which is why I predicted him to finish #1.

Fujinami & Onita both did really well. But yea, if someone completely ignored lucha and wants to get in a tizzy because I didn't rank the All Japan 90s crew (because I've tried numerous times to watch 90s All Japan and it does nothing for me) I really do not care and please know that you are a hypocrite.

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GOTNW... I hear you. I know that's the reasoning from those who don't rank the "obligatory" names. But that's specifically why I don't much care for the arguments for putting down a Misawa for instance, but making a case for the 100(!!!!) guys people who don't rank think are really better wrestlers. ... I'm not that into lucha (not really at all actually), but I've sat through hours and hours of footage for this and I can't seriously make the claim that 100 guys are better than Necro Casas, EHDS, Satanico and some others, so I have a lot of them listed. I have two joshi wrestlers, and that's a direct result of me not having seen enough to fairly rank more. And I think that's a pretty good argument. But I doubt a lot haven't seen at least 10+ Flair, Misawa, Funk etc. matches. ... Look, I don't really care who people rank. It's all fine and their business. No sweat. But I would always love to hear the reasoning why 100 guys are considered so good that they're ranked higher than a Michael Jordan in a top 100 basket players, a Van Gogh in painters or a Beethoven etc. ... I get that people (including me) could be uneducated on a Volk Han (or just haven't seen the light), but surely that's not the case with a Ric Flair or the like. Fair enough if you've rated on favorites, then we've just done it differently. Flair's not my #1 favorite, and you could probably still easily ridicule my list and tear it to pieces. That's not my point. I just can't, for the life of me, see 100 wrestlers objectively being better. If I hated Flair I'd probably still have to at least rank him in my top 50. I know a lot of people don't really like a Bret Hart, but still acknowledge his abilities and career and have him in their top 100. ... Again: I really have no personal problem with people leaving anybody off or including anyone (I have a couple of ridiculously personal choices that I have precious few good arguments for including). I just don't understand it :-) ... I've rambled on long enough about it and JvK has made the argument often and better than me anyway, but thanks for sharing your thoughts and reasoning :-)

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GOTNW, with Lucha my position is basically that "I'm sure that stuff is as great as the community says, but the failing is with me in not getting it"

 

Would you ever accept that position for yourself as regards Flair / NWA?

And that's a much better (and shorter...) way of putting it. So I'd rather hear the answer to that than to my post :-)

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GOTNW, with Lucha my position is basically that "I'm sure that stuff is as great as the community says, but the failing is with me in not getting it"

 

Would you ever accept that position for yourself as regards Flair / NWA?

My thoughts on the matter are closer to yours on shoot style as I'm not as nearly ambivalent on Flair as you are on lucha. I thought I was going to rank Flair coming into this. When I watched my first "great Flair stuff" years ago I thought it was great and he was a great wrestler. But that was also a time when I could love a Dragon Gate style match and was crazy about modern US indies stuff and that's also changed in the mean time. I give every style and wrestler a chance but there's no reason for me to be facetious about something I don't enjoy. I respect his accomplishments, importance in the wrestling industry and athelticism among other things. I'm sure he's had quite a few matches I'd consider at least good. But "the idea of Ric Flair" doesn't result in compelling work to me inside the ring most of the time. I'm not sure if it's really a case of me not "getting it". I don't intend to sound pretentious though it may come off like that, but as time has passed and I've watched more stuff and my taste has changed these days I rarely look at a match and go "how could someone like that", regardless of whether or not I likeit. I've watched the stuff, I've listened to the arguments. I just don't find the highly pimped stuff impressive. I'm fine with watching Flair stuff but on my own terms (ie:shorter matches-even a difference between a twenty minute and a fourty minute match can be a huge one, preferably brawls) and outside of the context of any GOAT projects.

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I considered him but had no idea where to put him. I've seen a decent amount of his stuff, but much of that is vague in my memory. After revisiting the Flair stuff to see whether it would hold up all I was really left with in terms of great stuff was the amazing Rude Ironman match. Now that I think of it he has a match vs. Tully Blanchard I really loved and the Jericho match which was pretty fascinating but I gave other stuff priority and seriously considered too many wrestlers to begin with. I look forward to watching more of his stuff but I couldn't pull the trigger this time around. Just felt more strongly about other wrestlers really.

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I'm so curious who you do like and rank :-) And I'm not being sarcastic. It feels like we're rating two different types of sport (sorry, Vince, "sports entertainment"). But maybe that's part of the beauty of wrestling. It can be so many different things to different people. That you have neither Flair nor Steamboat listed, even though you know their work and you're not trying to be clever about it is fascinating to me. In a good way!

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I am reasonably confident and have been for some time that Flair will finish #1 when all is said and done.

 

If Bryan finishes #1, I won't pretend that it wouldn't disappoint me tremendously, it would. Not really in terms of the relative merits of each guy, but more in terms of what it says about the overall community right now. I am an old-school fan and I've loved PWO primarily because it is the best place anywhere to discuss old-school wrestling in-depth. If Bryan finishes #1 over Flair, it's just a strong indication that the community is changing and moving away from that old-school focus. That's the thing I care about. I've never been any different. Cut me and I bleed old-school.

 

There aren't 150 people who post about old-school wrestling on PWO. This thing obviously got bigger through Twitter and the podcast networks. It wouldn't surprise me if the final results are now less PWO-oriented than if only the forum regulars had voted. The wider pull of voters is similar to what happened in 2006 when people were invited from outside Smarkschoice to participate and a better snapshot of 2016 vs. 2006 than a smaller turnout would of been. But yes, Flair is in danger of not finishing #1.

Yes, I also wonder if someone like Kurt Angle, the most definitively "un-PWO" choice may end up ranking.

I know you put it in quotations but un-PWO suggests that the board itself represents a singular view on wrestling. I myself wouldn't be surprised at all in Angle placed decent and if a guy like Bryan won the whole thing. I also wouldn't be surprised if a guy like Flair or Funk won the whole thing. Either way it'll be fun to see.

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I only included some Lucha guys, as that's been a blind spot for me. I've seen some of the more famous matches, but didn't include many Lucha guys as I just haven't seen enough of the footage.

 

Ditto with World of Sport and Shoot fighting guys outside of Maeda and Takada, and I also didn't include any women on my list. I haven't been too familiar with Joshi matches outside of a couple. I would like to watch some more of it though.

 

Also, three names I didn't include were Hiroshi Hase (I forgot), Buddy Rose, and Raven. I'm sure there are others I forgot to include too, but overall I guess I was happy with my list.

 

Also, why do many people not like Kurt Angle? I'm just curious.

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