Post-Mania 32 Raw

[thebrainfollower]

Was this a one shot thing for Maryse or is she now part of the Miz's act?

[hammerva]

Well she was on the promo picture for the Ryder vs Miz rematch on Smackdown this week so i guess she is at least there for at least a brief period

 

The fact that a small percentage of people still think Triple H vs Reigns is going to happen at next PPV even with AJ winning the match tells you that the way they booked Styles has been weird at best

 

Most of the people who are doing the "see you internet SMART MARKS you were wrong as usual" are also the same people that still think Daniel Bryan winning the title at WM 30 was the original plan all along.

[Gus_McCrae]

It's April. Styles debuted at the end of January. If they had pushed him strong from the start, there'd be no backlash, not even "He's going to be fed to Reigns!" backlash. Those people would just think that he was on the right side of the HHH vs Dunn war or something, or that they'd successfully hijacked, or that the injuries meant WWE had gotten desperate, or something. And he'd be more over with the casual fanbase because he'd be a dominant winner.

 

I'm arguing you may not get as strong a reaction (live + twitter) from a styles win if they pushed him stronger, because then you don't get the surprise.

[FMKK]

 

It's April. Styles debuted at the end of January. If they had pushed him strong from the start, there'd be no backlash, not even "He's going to be fed to Reigns!" backlash. Those people would just think that he was on the right side of the HHH vs Dunn war or something, or that they'd successfully hijacked, or that the injuries meant WWE had gotten desperate, or something. And he'd be more over with the casual fanbase because he'd be a dominant winner.

 

I'm arguing you may not get as strong a reaction (live + twitter) from a styles win if they pushed him stronger, because then you don't get the surprise.

What's better, long term investment in a character or a few shocked reactions on Twitter? People who are into Styles would still be happy for him that he's getting a shot at the main event no matter how he was being booked prior to Monday. But making a guy a big deal by giving him big wins is what gets them over with more casual fans, that's clear even today.

[Gus_McCrae]

 

 

It's April. Styles debuted at the end of January. If they had pushed him strong from the start, there'd be no backlash, not even "He's going to be fed to Reigns!" backlash. Those people would just think that he was on the right side of the HHH vs Dunn war or something, or that they'd successfully hijacked, or that the injuries meant WWE had gotten desperate, or something. And he'd be more over with the casual fanbase because he'd be a dominant winner.

I'm arguing you may not get as strong a reaction (live + twitter) from a styles win if they pushed him stronger, because then you don't get the surprise.

What's better, long term investment in a character or a few shocked reactions on Twitter? People who are into Styles would still be happy for him that he's getting a shot at the main event no matter how he was being booked prior to Monday. But making a guy a big deal by giving him big wins is what gets them over with more casual fans, that's clear even today.

 

Is it though? That isn't what got BD over. That isn't what got Ambrose over. It didn't get Cesaro (until he was buried). Giving guys big wins didn't get Roman over.

 

I'm not steadfast here, but we are at a point in time thats a bit weird, were the most over person in recent history got over by being booked weakly and the guys booked strongly haven't worked out.

 

I can see why they are doing it, I don't know if its right or wrong but I'm not going to get super worked up about it until we see how it plays out.

[Loss]

Never in wrestling history have The Moment and The Journey been so at odds.

[Badlittlekitten]

Bryan got over because of his ring work and character development. Nobody really gets over because they have no real stories.

[Loss]

In 2016, a push is a burial and a burial is a push. It makes my head hurt. It's also entirely a problem of their own making, not a sign of the times or anything like that.

[FMKK]

Never in wrestling history have The Moment and The Journey been so at odds.

At least with Bryan The Journey was reconned to fit The Moment and by the end, the subtext of him being held down for not being a Vince McMahon-type superstar was brought into cannon as he was feuding with HHH and Stephanie, who were cast as parodies of themselves based on online perceptions. With AJ it's just like, why the hell did he lose to Jericho?

 

The Moment and The Journey are divorced because WWE have spent so long swerving their audience instead of giving them someone to believe in. They are less interested in coherent storytelling than they are in playing up the meta-storyline of trying to figure out how they're gonna book. It's so bizarre.

[Jimmy Redman]

I think in comparing it to Bryan, it's worth noting that Bryan initially got over with the casual audience (to call them that) by being booked quite strongly in mid-2013, being the first guy to beat the Shield, submitting Orton on Raw and then pinning Cena clean at Summerslam to win the title. It was only after that that the 'he's being held down" stuff began, after it was established that it wasn't his fault, not only to smarky smarks but also to the parts of the crowd that wouldn't have bought him on that level otherwise.

 

You debut AJ and right out of the gate he's looking inferior to Jericho and losing at Mania, and you're telling all of the people who don't already love AJ - the casual section - that he's just another guy in the midcard. The meta burial push doesn't work unless you push them properly first, because without showing that he's special and worthy of the push he's being denied, those people just see him as some guy who can't win and don't see the big deal about him. And it's those people you have to get onside. Smarks already love AJ, and we'll be away from Mania crowds next week.

 

Booking has never been more ass backwards, and there's merit in the idea that pushing someone too strongly cools them off, but at the same time, you can't pretend like it doesn't matter completely. AJ would look like more of a title contender if he was winning, and not losing, major grudge matches at Wrestlemania.

[Loss]

At the very very least, if Jericho was going to win, he should have cheated like hell, yes. Not that a ref bump where Jericho is pinned after a Styles Clash with no one to count only for Jericho to do a bunch of illegal stuff to come back would have been great, but it would have been way better.

[FMKK]

I think in comparing it to Bryan, it's worth noting that Bryan initially got over with the casual audience (to call them that) by being booked quite strongly in mid-2013, being the first guy to beat the Shield, submitting Orton on Raw and then pinning Cena clean at Summerslam to win the title. It was only after that that the 'he's being held down" stuff began, after it was established that it wasn't his fault, not only to smarky smarks but also to the parts of the crowd that wouldn't have bought him on that level otherwise.

 

You debut AJ and right out of the gate he's looking inferior to Jericho and losing at Mania, and you're telling all of the people who don't already love AJ - the casual section - that he's just another guy in the midcard. The meta burial push doesn't work unless you push them properly first, because without showing that he's special and worthy of the push he's being denied, those people just see him as some guy who can't win and don't see the big deal about him. And it's those people you have to get onside. Smarks already love AJ, and we'll be away from Mania crowds next week.

 

Booking has never been more ass backwards, and there's merit in the idea that pushing someone too strongly cools them off, but at the same time, you can't pretend like it doesn't matter completely. AJ would look like more of a title contender if he was winning, and not losing, major grudge matches at Wrestlemania.

The argument about pushing someone strongly actually cooling them off doesn't hold too much water to me actually. On the surface it seems like that but really, Lesnar was super over last year because he was booked like an unbeatable Demi-God. Rusev went a year unbeaten and ended up being a hot heel working Mania against John Cena. If they had sustained the push he would be main event right now. It's more the perception of being a company guy that hurts people rather than them winning matches and feuds.

 

A book could be written about why Roman Reigns isn't over as a babyface but at least part of it, in my opinion, is the Lex Luger booking of him always choking in the big title match. I mean, The Shield got over by beating everyone. WWE and a section of their audience seem to both be stuck in a rut of trying to outthink each other when many of the simple basics done right can still work.

[Loss]

Over the past decade and a half, we've seen a steady escalation of self-inflicted complexity in booking that has only made their job so much harder. They've found a way to be successful in spite of it and more power to them, but it's not very fun to watch.

[Jimmy Redman]

That's a good point though. A guy winning a lot isn't always the same as being pushed strongly. There was a big thing a while ago where I think Parv went into Roman's push and how he's actually not protected that much in terms of wins and losses. BUT despite that he clearly is being pushed as the next big thing. It's all about TV time and presence in main feuds and how they are presented by the announcers. If they just say something over and over enough times, it will be true.

 

On one hand it just goes to show you how much they have separated wins/losses and pushes in their minds.

 

You can add Ryback in 2012 to the list of guys who got way over just from simply being booked strongly and winning all the time. It works it's just that they're not willing to do it for their actual top guys. They seem to think the only reason Bryan worked was because they held him down, so now the top face has to be "held down" all the time to get sympathy, so they lose and get screwed over and over, like they're trapped in some perpetual Ricky Morton segment. And in Roman's case it makes zero sense.

This company has been built for decades on a dominant babyface champion, right up to Cena, and for some reason they've all got amnesia about it now.

[Loss]

Here's what I mean by complexity. You can argue that Roman Reigns having MOTYCs with fan darlings like AJ Styles and going over in a way that seems earned is a great way to rehab him and build his legacy as champion. You can also argue that it will only foster more resentment because the hand-picked guy is going over the guys perceived as being held down anyway. Those flip side scenarios definitely happen from time to time in all eras of wrestling, but now, pretty much every booking idea presents a similar dilemma. Because yeah, you could avoid resentment of him maybe by keeping him away from guys like Styles and Sami Zayn and putting him over Strowman, Big Show and Kane, but we know the flip side of that argument too.

[Strummer]

If Enzo is given any consistent mic time he is going to get over huge. Very interesting to see how wwe would react to that

[Woof]

In 2016, a push is a burial and a burial is a push. It makes my head hurt. It's also entirely a problem of their own making, not a sign of the times or anything like that.

 

I wouldn't say "entirely". We are definitely living in a time where individuality is being tied more and more to a person's likes and dislikes in the pop culture arena. People often makes choices - even if subconsciously - to get behind something (particular wrestlers in this instance) that others appear lukewarm on just because it helps them stand out, at least in their own mind. I think we even see it with the GWE ballots where nearly everybody is going to have a few picks that are merely there for personal reasons having nothing to do with evaluated "greatness". We're not likely to see a Hulk Hogan circa 1985 ever again, because the moment a vast majority of people get behind someone there will spring up a sizeable minority who will run contrary just as a way of feeling like an individual. Bryan was such an anomalie, and in truth you can pin a lot of that on the "YES" chants, because they were fun to do in person.

 

I'm really curious to see how Enzo & Cass do on the main roster, because it's been a really long time since the WWE had an act that had that reliable sing-song promo shtick. Mob mentality is a weird thing. On a message board we can all carve out a personality based on our likes and dislikes, and really hold true to what those things are even when pressed by those with differing opinions. Yet put us all in the same arena and we're all probably gonna wind up shouting out "S-A-W-F-T" at the top of our lungs because personal opinions be damned, doing that shit with a packed house of strangers is ridiculously fun.

 

WWE is no doubt their own worst enemy, but I think they're also up against a weird societal issue by being a nationally touring brand. Try as they might, they simply can't predict what crowd they're gonna get on a given night. Part of NXT's "success" is built around playing to the same audience most weeks, so they can book accordingly.

[Loss]

I thought about that some more after posting and realized yeah, it's probably not entirely, so I agree with you. The Sanders and Trump campaigns have shown how much people distrust institutions now as well, which I'm sure also plays a role.

[Mr. Lacelle]

Vince likes to see how guys react to jobbing, AJ was probably a pro about it & gets rewarded. No sulking or being passive aggressive.

[Strummer]

Maryse has been added to the cast of Total Divas which is why she is back full time. Mandy is gone after only one season. In alll honesty she was boring as hell so I can see why

 

Renee Young and Lana also joining the cast

[goc]

Lana being on the show should mean a lot of Rusev too...I might have to start watching.

[NotJayTabb]

Given the latest call-ups and the WWE's penchant for 6-man tags, I just know we're getting closer to a Ziggler/Enzo/Cassady trio who will be my all-time most hated team

[C.S.]

Maryse has been added to the cast of Total Divas which is why she is back full time.

I can see the storyline now...

 

Maryse: My husband doesn't have the biggest tool in the shed, but he satisfies me. I don't know though, should I see what else is out there?

 

Nikki: Girl, if you're not sure about your man, you should totally, you know, explore your options.

 Just don't ever tell Mike [Miz] about it. [ignoring that they're filming this for the whole world.]
 
Cue a wacky misadventure involving den mother Nattie trying to help Maryse find a male prostitute.
 
Nattie: [in front of a pink background] If Maryse is not happy in the bedroom, she won't be happy in the ring. That could put me and the other girls in danger. I have to protect myself out there, and helping Maryse with her love life is the only way I can do that.

[ButchReedMark]

Given the latest call-ups and the WWE's penchant for 6-man tags, I just know we're getting closer to a Ziggler/Enzo/Cassady trio who will be my all-time most hated team

 

Yeah, I really don't get Enzo and Cass. Don't know what it is but the act really doesn't sit well with me.

[NotJayTabb]

I seriously felt like Bubba Dudley was an avatar for how I felt, looking at these two idiots with a "What the fuck are these two supposed to be?".

 

Enzo, to be fair, has improved in ring a lot in the last year to the point where he's almost watchable, but the way he judders and skips around like a hyperactive twat just infuriates me. I can't look at him without feeling annoyed. I'm all for wrestlers having something for fans to chant along with, but having to sit through an entire introduction every time - the same introduction - got old real fast in NXT. the line about being so ugly tears run away from their faces was quite good though

 

Cass is just worthless. Terrible wrestler and terrible on the mic. When he goes into the Sawft spiel, it felt like every word had a full stop after it, just trying way too hard.