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Grimmas

Reactions to the List: 100-51

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim.

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim.

 

 

Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff.

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There are people I know and respect who think Sami Zayn is one of the 15 best wrestlers ever, and one of the handful of best babyfaces ever. Tanner believes this also. I myself don't get that level of praise for him at all BUT as with Tanahashi who will show up eventually I get how he'd make a top 100 and does speak to a real sentiment and view point among a segment of hardcore, "watch everything" fans.

 

I'm just happy guys like Garvin and Onita made it this far. I had Garvin high up in the bottom half and Onita even higher, but they are type where it wouldn't have surprised me to see them fall in the 200's. Glad that didn't happen.

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim.

 

 

Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff.

 

It's interesting to me that Cesaro's work in NXT/WWE is far superior to his indy work, but Hero's NXT work wasn't nearly as good as his indy work (save for the Regal stuff). Is it harder to have good matches under road agents, time limits, creative restraints? Or is it just not applicable here at all?

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim.

 

 

Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff.

 

 

This makes me really want to check out more Chris Hero stuff.

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

IWA-MS 2002-2004 has definitely not made its way online in large chunks.

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I've watched a bunch of Tanahashi matches since he got to the top of New Japan, and holy shit, what a great worker. The best Keiji Mutoh ever. He was #34 on my list. Yeah, I voted for both Tanahashi and Nakamura. I stuck in the 90's, I know...

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I don't necessarily have issues with the overall placement of Zayn and Cesaro, but I will say I think it speaks to the "WWE effect" that they are both slightly higher than Hero, who I think was better earlier, subsequently better for longer, and has had just as many good matches on the indies as Zayn and Cesaro have had in WWE in the past few years.

 

There's also some level of availability of footage too, with Cesaro especially, over Hero. It's a hell of a lot easier for me to watch 200 Cesaro matches than 200 Hero matches.

 

 

Totally agree. From what I have watched of Hero I would still rank Cesaro a good bit higher. But I will admit that I'm only at 6-7 Hero matches, som I'm in no way dismissing his case. He might well be as good as some here claim.

 

 

Matt, footage availability is a valid point. I think it's interesting in this case, as the harder to find footage for Hero is what makes his case, while that same footage is a probably a detriment to Cesaro's, as his ROH/CZW runs are largely underwhelming and he is completely overshadowed by Hero in the KoW tag team stuff.

 

It's interesting to me that Cesaro's work in NXT/WWE is far superior to his indy work, but Hero's NXT work wasn't nearly as good as his indy work (save for the Regal stuff). Is it harder to have good matches under road agents, time limits, creative restraints? Or is it just not applicable here at all?

 

 

It's a really interesting discussion, as we have evidence of this going both ways. I remember Matt Sydal/Evan Bourne, whom I had no use for on the indies, was a revelation in WWE, because he was no longer surrounded by a bunch of dudes with slightly more charisma doing the same thing as him in a less aesthetically pleasing fashion. In WWE, he could just go out and have great TV matches where everything he did looked amazing. I think Cesaro is an example of this as well; he is able to make everything he does in ring look tremendous, and he can generate crowd reaction based on his feats of strength and signature spots, but I think it's been clear at various points that he doesn't quite have the skill set to carry a narrative outside the ring the same way he can inside.

 

Hero and Sami Callihan seem to be the opposite side of the coin, in which it's very clear that they were unable or unwilling to adjust. Callihan was probably the victim of someone seeing the Finlay matches and thinking his strength lied in wrestling from underneath. I dont want to venture a guess as to why Hero sputtered, but I think it's clearly they didn't arrive to NXT and magically forget how to wrestle. I do think it's noteworthy that both indie stars who have failed in NXT have undergone bodily transformations over the course of their career. I'm not sure I can point to that as a reason or a cause, but it's an interesting if potentially coincidental connection.

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Given that this isn't exactly a Tanashashi crowd he didn't fare too badly. He made my top 15 but could make a case for him much higher than that. By my jaded eyes the premier big match worker in the world since Kobashi's NOAH run, with a slew of classics over the last 5 years that aren't all that far behind the best of All Japan.

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There are people I know and respect who think Sami Zayn is one of the 15 best wrestlers ever, and one of the handful of best babyfaces ever. Tanner believes this also.

 

I just don't want this to get completely no sold. Tremendous.

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I actually like Toyota's ranking this time around better. She was my #54. I'm glad the other girls are gonna do better.

Can we drop Hogan now though ? This is getting absolutely ridiculous now.

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