Reactions to the List: 100-51

[Jetlag]

Hokuto is someone I almost didn't rank because I saw a few really disappointing matches from her "peak". Don't think she was a Top 5 worker in 1993. Good thing her 1990-92 period is underrated.

 

 

 

 

Who said it was? I rated Tamura 25 spots higher than Volk and it wasn't just because Tamura had a great match with Vader one time.

 

But remember that this list isn't 100 greatest shoot style wrestlers of all time. I don't think it is weird at all to say Tamura was better because in the course of perfecting shoot-style, he was able to bend and adapt and find compelling ways to work with someone like Vader who was a pro-style guy.

 

Could Volk build a match around selling and striking like Tamura does in the Vader match or did Volk have to work with a guy with at least some knowledge of submission grappling to have a compelling match? Maybe he did but I haven't seen it. I'll know soon enough I guess but I tend to doubt it.

 

 

The idea of Han as some kind of spotfest worker is ridiculous. He was a LOT better than Tamura at getting good matches out of shitty dutch kickboxers, aging karate guys or other untrained dudes. Stuff like Volk Han vs. Sotir Gotchev isn't praised along with the best of RINGS stuff but it exists and it's very very good. Tamura had the problem that he could look like he was eating up and squashing guys, as if he wasn't in trouble at all, which is why like half of his U-Style matches feel like squashes, while Volk was a master of looking beastly and vulnerable at the same time.

[elliott]

Hokuto is someone I almost didn't rank because I saw a few really disappointing matches from her "peak". Don't think she was a Top 5 worker in 1993. Good thing her 1990-92 period is underrated.

 

 

 

 

Who said it was? I rated Tamura 25 spots higher than Volk and it wasn't just because Tamura had a great match with Vader one time.

 

But remember that this list isn't 100 greatest shoot style wrestlers of all time. I don't think it is weird at all to say Tamura was better because in the course of perfecting shoot-style, he was able to bend and adapt and find compelling ways to work with someone like Vader who was a pro-style guy.

 

Could Volk build a match around selling and striking like Tamura does in the Vader match or did Volk have to work with a guy with at least some knowledge of submission grappling to have a compelling match? Maybe he did but I haven't seen it. I'll know soon enough I guess but I tend to doubt it.

 

 

The idea of Han as some kind of spotfest worker is ridiculous. He was a LOT better than Tamura at getting good matches out of shitty dutch kickboxers, aging karate guys or other untrained dudes. Stuff like Volk Han vs. Sotir Gotchev isn't praised along with the best of RINGS stuff but it exists and it's very very good. Tamura had the problem that he could look like he was eating up and squashing guys, as if he wasn't in trouble at all, which is why like half of his U-Style matches feel like squashes, while Volk was a master of looking beastly and vulnerable at the same time.

 

Tamura is an incredible seller. Like one of the best ever at selling. He spent basically the first 5 years of his career looking vulnerable. He was constantly behind in points in his matches and fighting from behind. "Fighting from behind in points" was an extremely common Tamura match storyline throughout his career.

 

But I haven't watched those 12 U-Style matches yet.

 

Edit: Can you point to specific matches other than "like half of his U-Style matches"?

[spookysaku]

Top 10 by average before the final 50 roll out:

 

Kiyoshi Tamura (31.11 / 55 ballots)

Jim Breaks (36.28 / 67)

Akira Hokuto (37.45 / 76)

Yuki Ishikawa (40.22 / 54)

Azumi Hyuga (43.25 / 4)

Volk Han (44.60 / 68)

Susumu Yokosuka (45.00 / 3)

Bull Nakano (46.81 / 72)

Chigusa Nagayo (46.84 / 37)

Jaguar Yokota (46.91 / 34)

[jamesie_2015]

I have Daniel Bryan (my number 1) and Vince McMahon. What a team.

[NotJayTabb]

I think my high vote team of Sheamus, Ernie Ladd, Fritz & Kevin von Erich and Jeff Jarrett would be a fun heel squadron. Especially with my #1 pick to come and Veidor, Zenk and Mason on the subs bench

[Danish Dynamite]

Final look before the top 50. Dick Murdoch and Akira Hokuto dropped and weren't on my list. Both were pretty close though. Gun to my head, I would actually gladly drop a few names from the bottom 5 of my list for either or both of them...

 

I did have Andre, and I had him in my top 50. I love Jimmy Redman's reasoning for him, plus grimmas strong support of old-man-Andre's ability as storyteller and to get everything out of almost nothing by that point.

 

So with 50 names to go, I have 49. And I initially had Benoit around 85-ish which would have made it 50/50 for me. He was so close to the cut off point anyway, that the whole issue with him just made it too easy for me not to rank him.

 

My top 25 is still intact. My two lowest rated guys who're still around are Shawn Michaels (91) and Mick Foley (85). Won't mind them dropping soon, but I share a lot of peoples concern that Michaels is gonna be quite high...

[MoS]

I don't even remember where I had Breaks ranked, but his ranking is a disappointment. Had I watched more, he'd totally have been higher. I was thinking the people who had seen much more WoS would rank him considerably high.

[GOTNW]

 

The idea of Han as some kind of spotfest worker is ridiculous. He was a LOT better than Tamura at getting good matches out of shitty dutch kickboxers, aging karate guys or other untrained dudes. Stuff like Volk Han vs. Sotir Gotchev isn't praised along with the best of RINGS stuff but it exists and it's very very good. Tamura had the problem that he could look like he was eating up and squashing guys, as if he wasn't in trouble at all, which is why like half of his U-Style matches feel like squashes, while Volk was a master of looking beastly and vulnerable at the same time.

I like Tamura vs Tariel Bitsadze as much as the Vader match if not more. Tamura worked with guys liked that both in UWFi and RINGS and I don't really think there's a huge gap between him and Han in getting good stuff out of dudes like that.

[anarchistxx]

Hokuto & Breaks both made my top fifteen. Sucks to see them below Cena & Punk & Andre, especially the former because she has the conventionally great matches to back the claim up. Whereas Breaks, incredibly charismatic and accessible though he is, worked a niche and style that is often hard to compare to a regularly structured match.

 

Pretty sure it was The Wrestling Channel that exposed me to Jim Breaks. We in the UK didn't realize how lucky we had it back then, ROH, CZW, Puro (NOAH and AJPW at least IIRC), classic wrestling, lucha and a ton of other stuff showing up on that channel, TNA and WWE both on weekly television, random stuff like NJPW popping up on Eurosport, randomly finding obscure sleaze like the Naked Women's Wrestling League on random Sky channels. Of course, you can get most of it online now, but it was cool and pretty unique to have a time where so much wresting was available on television.

[soup23]

48 out of 50 for my list. Only Buddy Rose (who I really probably should have ranked given the amount I have seen, it just feels like it would have been incomplete) and MIck Foley (probably would have ranked him instead of Austin in retrospect) weren't on my top 100.

 

39 of my top 50 made the top 50 which I am happy with.

[Matt D]

48 out of 50 for my list. Only Buddy Rose (who I really probably should have ranked given the amount I have seen, it just feels like it would have been incomplete) and MIck Foley (probably would have ranked him instead of Austin in retrospect) weren't on my top 100.

Then you would have been missing Austin though.

[soup23]

 

48 out of 50 for my list. Only Buddy Rose (who I really probably should have ranked given the amount I have seen, it just feels like it would have been incomplete) and MIck Foley (probably would have ranked him instead of Austin in retrospect) weren't on my top 100.

Then you would have been missing Austin though.

 

 

Yeah, I don't see me getting to 50 out of 50 either way as looking over my list, I can't see Foley or Austin above any of the others right now. Also, I'm sure if I would have plowed through WOS more comprehensively that would have added some people that likely would have dropped some people like Murdoch possibly off my list.

[pol]

Always thought Han's lack of striking acumen was both a blessing and a curse when compared to Tamura. It hurt him a little in terms of projecting an image as a great fighter, but it also gave him a weakness to structure matches around. It's probably part of what made him so good at carrying guys who only knew how to kick.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah, to me the dynamic of Han the grappler vs strikers made for more interesting matches than a more well-rounded Han would have. That styles clash is the key, especially as a simple, easy to get story for we the shootstyle novices.

[elliott]

Always thought Han's lack of striking acumen was both a blessing and a curse when compared to Tamura. It hurt him a little in terms of projecting an image as a great fighter, but it also gave him a weakness to structure matches around. It's probably part of what made him so good at carrying guys who only knew how to kick.

 

Tamura spent 2 years in UWFi not wearing kickpads and barely throwing any strikes. He would occasionally throw slaps, but it was super rare. Early Tamura was basically him stubbornly refusing to use strikes and focus completely on mat work and submission attempts.

 

The famous Vader match stood out in the context of his career at that point because it was really the first time he primarily used a strike based attack.

[El-P]

Tamura spent 2 years in UWFi not wearing kickpads and barely throwing any strikes. He would occasionally throw slaps, but it was super rare. Early Tamura was basically him stubbornly refusing to use strikes and focus completely on mat work and submission attempts.

 

Pretty much. That's why I didn't get into him right away, as it's easier to enjoy a striker at first. Tamura was going for the hardcore approach right away. But once you get used to it, you're in for a treat.

[ohtani's jacket]

The main picture of Breaks isn't a picture of Breaks. Well, it's a picture of him in a headlock with his butt sticking out, but you get what I mean.

[Matt D]

The main picture of Breaks isn't a picture of Breaks. Well, it's a picture of him in a headlock with his butt sticking out, but you get what I mean.

 

Seems about accurate to me.

[Jimmy Redman]

Yeah I thought that was deliberate and awesome.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

70. Yuki Ishikawa

 

Another strong run from a cult favourite. Maybe he could have finished a little higher but that would require a perfect world where people stop bitching about WWE booking and watch BattlARTS. From his Inoki worship to being a student of Fujiwara, there's a lot to love about Ishikawa. He kept shoot style going for as long as he possibly could even after MMA was dead and is still teaching real pro-wrestling in Canada. He's a guy who, along with the likes of Minoru Suzuki and Osamu Nishimura, really feels like the last of his generation. I don't think we'll see their type of worker again. But he's also versatile enough that he could have been a pretty good junior if he'd only done pro-style. Really good worker.

 

 

 

69. Blue Panther

 

I liked what Matt said about people voting in 2006 for an idealised version of Blue Panther that didn't really exist. I just don't agree about the real Panther being better. Let me clear something up straight away -- Panther is a GREAT mat worker -- he just doesn't work the mat enough. The old line that you'd get two to three minutes of great matwork in any Panther match was a myth and so whenever you see a Panther match where he hits the mat and it's not that good then naturally it's going to be disappointing. But when you see good Panther it's everything you hoped it would be and more. The problem is that there's so much lucha footage that's never been watched and never been discussed that searching for good Blue Panther is a bit like heading down a rabbit hole. I've talked before about how he's an overrated singles worker and not that great at trios and I'm pleased to see a bit more criticism filtering through to the lucha candidates as it's a sign that people are taking them more seriously as workers in my eyes.

 

 

 

68. Kurt Angle

 

I like Kurt Angle in the same way that I wanna finish a box of chocolates if my wife opens them or a packet of biscuits. I wouldn't ordinarily eat that kind of food but if it's open I'll scoff it down until it's finished. I like a lot of his WWE stuff even if it falls off the rails. If I'm gonna watch a spotty guy with selling and pacing issues I'd rather watch one with an amateur background than a discipline of Shawn Michaels. Never seen one of his TNA matches. Seems like it would be worse for you than choccies or a bickie.

 

 

 

67. Jack Brisco

 

Funny seeing Brisco drop straight after Angle since there was a time when people were hoping Angle would be a throwback to Brisco or his spiritual heir or some shit. One of them was the consummate wrestler and the other is like pro-wrestling junk food. I'll let you guess which is which. One thing I'll say about the Brisco footage we have is that as good as he looks in the first part of the 70s he looks just as washed up in the latter half. And I personally haven't seen a ton of merit in his 80s footage.

 

 

 

66. Keiji Mutoh

 

A while back I opined that you can condition yourself to just about any worker if you watch enough of them. I also believe you can find redeeming qualities in the most maligned of workers if you try hard enough. I'm struggling to think of any for Mutoh

 

 

 

65. Shinjiro Ohtani

 

I'm shocked that Ohtani remained in the top 100. I thought nobody watched his juniors stuff anymore. Weird how so many Joshi workers can fall out of the top 100 but Ohtani is still there. Maybe some of the younger voters were more familiar with his 00s work. I wrote this about him recently in response to Parv:

 

This mugging thing is a new talking point w/ you. Actually, I'm not surprised that Ohtani's schtick would come across as overacting or hamming it up to you. That was Ohtani's thing during his peak juniors years -- getting desperately close to a pinfall and acting like a hyperactive and overly-exaggerated version of Kobashi. Some of us found it endearing in the same way that Fuerza Guerrera, Psicosis or La Parka are. i used to liken it to silent comedy. The example I used was Chaplin, someone else called him Keaton. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but there was a lot of physical comedy in Ohtani's matches. My buddy and I would always laugh at his matches and mark out for his mannerisms while still digging the shit out of them as wrestling bouts. He was a special performer for me at the time and a guy I don't wanna go back and ever revise my feelings on. I did watch some of his clipped 1997-98 stuff a few years back and still found him as fresh as ever, but I don't wanna break any illusions I may have.

 

 

 

64. Sgt. Slaughter

 

The thing I appreciate about Slaughter the most is his sheer commitment to his gimmick. It's a gimmick that should have been cartoony as shit but he lived and breathed it. Was there anybody who didn't believe that Sgt. Slaughter was real and that Bob Remus wasn't an actual drill sergeant? And no, you can't say the same thing about Hillbilly Jim or any of his friends. Slaughter was real dammit. He was even in GI Joe.

[MasterJonBurr]

And that's why OJ is still king of wrasslin posts!

 

Yours,

JHHBjr

[stunning_grover]

55-51 feature five wrestlers in a row that were on my list...

 

55. Curt Hennig

I had him at #50. He ranked #45 in the overall rankings in 2006. 100 people voted for him this time. I think that's "absolutely Perfect."

 

54. Greg Valentine

I had him at #32. It's amazing to see he was ranked at number 170 in 2006 in the overall rankings and is now 116 places higher in the overall rankings. It's a good thing though.

 

53. Dick Murdoch

I had him at #11. Probably the 4th greatest American pro wrestler ever, in my opinion.

 

52. Akira Hokuto

I had her at #30. Her 1993 (and 1992) was great and even though her 1993 was better than many people's entire career, her lack of longevity makes it hard to rank her over great wrestlers who had a longer peak.

 

51. Andre the Giant

I had him at #94. Interesting to see that Andre is now 113 places higher in the overall rankings, compared to his 2006 overall ranking. I don't think I could have a top 100 without Andre, but I also don't think I could rank him much higher than #94. He was great during his prime though. I personally like his early 1980s stuff the best. He was really good in the 1970s too. But, as much as I don't want to think about it, it's hard not to think about how much lesser in quality his 1985-1991 was when he became increasingly less mobile (even though he got the most out of his matches, I guess). Either way, I mostly rated him based on his 1972-1984 work.

[ohtani's jacket]

63. Giant Baba

 

I'm not entirely convinced that Baba was better than Inoki. I need to watch more of Baba's JWA stuff before I make any grand statements about that, but I think if we're being honest that it helps that Baba founded that wee thing called All Japan that some people like. Just a few. I also think it helps that he was a goofy looking bastard and people are kind of mesmerised by how strange looking he is and how he moves around the ring like some kind of puppet. The older he gets the less human looking he becomes until it's like Stan Hansen vs. an alien. That's a unique brand of charisma. If you've never seen him in the mid-60s when he was bulked up and had muscles then that's a sight to behold. Forgetting about how he looked, I dunno if I buy the master psychologist chess master stuff that gets thrown out about him, but he had some great matches against The Destroyer, Billy Robinson and likely more, and then some fun old man performances that are a bit overrated in terms of how much credit Baba gets for them. We live in an age where maestro performances get credited more than ever before and Baba's old man stuff isn't on that level, IMO. .

[goc]

If Ishikawa had managed to hold on a few days you could have used this pic

[ohtani's jacket]

62. Kiyoshi Tamura

Clearly one of the best talents of the 90s. I'm not as high on his early work as elliot and others are but that's mainly due to the promotion he worked for. And I still maintain that the turning point in his career came when Tamura and Sakuraba put together a series of matches that was closer in look and feel to what was happening in Japanese MMA than the sports entertainment version of shoot style his promotion peddled. From all accounts, the pro-wrestling world came pretty close to losing him to MMA but fortunately he went to RINGS and eventually produced some of the most exquisite worked shoots known to man. For all that, he was never better than Volk Han. That would be like arguing that Funaki was better than Fujiwara because he was more athletic and had a better body. No. There's been two geniuses in shoot style. One of them was Yoshiaki Fujiwara and the other was Volk Han. Still an exemplary worker, though.

 

61. Bull Nakano

I was surprised she did this well. I guess people remember her for her look, but she was a versatile worker who was good for pretty much her entire career. She was good as a rookie, good as a midcard heel and good as the girl on top who took over during the most difficult transitional period in the company's history. She carried the young 90s stars when they were still greener than green tea then stepped aside and let Kong take the spotlight during the biggest boom period of her prime. And that was in spite of being the senior talent and in many ways the spiritual leader of the promotion. But she travelled and took the opportunity to do things she'd wanted to. And when it came time to retire she did so without fanfare or a send off of any kind. Really a girl who rocked to the beat of her own drum.