Reactions to the List: 100-51

[ohtani's jacket]

I kind of feel the need to say something about everyone who finishes top 100.

 

 

 

100. Daisuke Ikeda

 

I like Ikeda best in sub 10 minute shoot style bouts from the early days of BattlARTS. Whenever he'd go longer his matches got a bit too junior-ish for my tastes. I'm thinking specifically of that Otsuka match from '97. Bear in mind I'm not too big on the hybrid aspects of BattlARTS. His singles matches with Ishikawa in '98 and '99 were the high water mark for BattlARTS in my mind and still don't get their due as some of the best bouts of the era. I like his FUTEN stuff but he was physically broken down compared to his early BA stuff. I'm surprised he made it this far. I'm guessing he got some help through Twitter, which is cool.

 

 

 

99. Virus

 

One of those rare guys who got better as he aged. Early on his career he was unquestionably the best mini worker of all-time (at least from a work perspective), and while he was always a strong hand in the regular-sized ranks it wasn't until this decade that he became arguably the best guy in Mexico. Sticking that belt on him for as long as they did and giving him title matches against up and coming midcarders was like manna from heaven for us fans and one of the few gifts from CMLL you've got to be thankful for.

 

 

 

98. Kerry Von Erich

 

I don't think Von Erich was a strong enough worker on his own merits to crack the top 100, but he had plenty of good big match performances so it's grating or anything. He should have been tucked behind a few of the workers who made the 120-101 range but never mind.

 

 

 

97. The Destroyer

 

Massive drop. I was around when the Destroyer was the newest thing since sliced bread and when jdw was already saying how Yohe had been pimping him forever and how guys who had watched his Classics matches years earlier were all ahead of the praise. I was also around when Phil Schneider began questioning whether he was that good. I fucking loved the Destroyer in 2006. I voted him No.3. The biggest problem since then has been no new footage. Out of sight, out of mind. His ranking this time round is probably a better reflection of the amount of footage we have on tape.

 

 

 

96. L.A. Park

 

I love his Parka stuff and some of his L.A. Park work is okay, but he shouldn't have ranked ahead of most of the luchadores whom received votes. i get that he's a cult figure and everything (and that at his best he's legitimately good), but I'd love to see someone run down why he's better than Fuerza Guerrera or Fiera or Emilio or Perro Sr, and so on.

 

 

 

95. Sangre Chicana

 

A little bit high given the lack of footage. If we had all of the 1980-83 stuff that I read about and wrote about for the Lucha History lessons thread then he'd skyrocket up the list, but at this stage I think his personality is larger than his output. And I kind of wonder how many people have watched and critiqued his post-80s stuff to any real degree. I guess what I'm getting at is that are people looking at the full picture when they vote for him or just the MS-1 and Aguayo matches?

 

 

 

94. Shinsuke Nakamura

 

I don't really get his charisma or his shtick. He looks like's on something to me. I get why people like his minimalist strike-based offence but he comes across as a bit limited to me like a Japanese version of DDP or Kazuo Yamazaki on methamphetamines. He's had some exciting matches though and is usually good for at least one killer spot.

 

 

 

93. Bob Backlund

 

Backlund is a guy I always kind of groan about watching and then end up really enjoying. I think I'm guilty of letting other people's opinions of him create an unfair aversion to him. Slap on the wrist. For a style I profess to dislike, Backlund is one of the very best at it in my eyes. One of the few guys I can happily watch go long in the old-school style. I think this makes me the polar opposite to a lot of people here. I even had the opposite reaction to GOTNW in that I didn't like his shoot style involvement whatsoever or more specifically the shit the shoot style boys pulled on him.

 

 

 

92. Dusty Rhodes

 

One of the all-time great promos, one of the all-time great commentators, but I think the only time I've enjoyed his matches is when he talks over them. But he's Dusty so fuck it.

[RIPPA]

Guys Mando did a podcast with Will explaining his list!!!! Coming soon!!!

HEY! I have that in common with him too!

Mando is my spirit animal!

[Cap]

I love Bob Backlund, but on the average backlund match I just get frustrated by how little the heel works on top in his matches. I like those Hansen matches, particularly the one 9/30/80 in japan, but I always find myself wanting more fired up Backlund comebacks than I get. I really think he is one of the most underappreciated guys overall though, not here perhaps, but in general and even by the WWE and their history machine.

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

91. Too Cold Scorpio

 

I'm only really familiar with Scorpio's work from WCW where I pretty much dug everything from his singles work to his tag team w/ Bagwell. Never seen his work on the indies but take everyone's word for it.

[BAMptb]

 

 

 

 

I wonder when Hogan will drop.

Hopefully him and Piper drop soon. With Dusty gone, we can go to the really good ones. Because really, inside the ring, neither of those three were much (Piper being the worst by far).

Watch Piper in Portland in 1980 and you'll immediately change your mind.

[BAMptb]

Just watch Portland in general. It's wonderful!

[cowboy hats]

http://youtu.be/n3h8uMjGvFg

 

Pettengill called matches??

[Mando]

I talk on Will's podcast about Scorpio's amazing 12 year stretch of '92-'05 but Elliot was also on the show and his soliloquy on Satanico is perhaps even more inspired than my own impassioned oratory. I also ponder what if Parv had done BIGLAV on New Jack.

[conker8]

I'm happy that Taker and Muta are in the TOP 100.

They are my two favorites wrestlers ever but I didn't vote for them.

 

Are Atlantis and Blue Panther would pass the 80's ?

[InYourCase]

Scorp totally deserves to be in the Top 100. I won't say where I feel he should rank, but I'm pumped that he ended up where he did. Someone that I desperately want to see live before he calls it quits. Love his match with Claudio from 2008. Everyone should go seek it out.

[GOTNW]

 

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Backlund in New Japan/UWF/Battlarts and I remember digging him in the 90s WWF stuff as well so I watched some 70s/80s WW(W?)F stuff of his to see how he was there and it didn't do anything for me and thus didn't feel compelled to rank him. If his home promotion's style was closer to what I value in wrestling I'm almost certain he would be on my list.

Have you seen his hour draw with Valentine?

No, should I?

[Childs]

Scorp had a great '08 in general. At the time, I liked his matches with Callihan and Necro more than his Claudio match.

 

Meanwhile, Generico needs to bite the dust. The idea that he could finish 20-25 spots higher than Ki and Hero irks me.

[Lee Casebolt]

 

94. Shinsuke Nakamura

 

I don't really get his charisma or his shtick. He looks like's on something to me. I get why people like his minimalist strike-based offence but he comes across as a bit limited to me like a Japanese version of DDP or Kazuo Yamazaki on methamphetamines.

 

If someone had written this in Nak's discussion thread, I probably would have voted for him.

[GOTNW]

I kind of feel the need to say something about everyone who finishes top 100.

95. Sangre Chicana

A little bit high given the lack of footage. If we had all of the 1980-83 stuff that I read about and wrote about for the Lucha History lessons thread then he'd skyrocket up the list, but at this stage I think his personality is larger than his output. And I kind of wonder how many people have watched and critiqued his post-80s stuff to any real degree. I guess what I'm getting at is that are people looking at the full picture when they vote for him or just the MS-1 and Aguayo

I had him #30 and watched stuff of his from as late as 2009. Other than the two aforementioned hair matches he's also got the Satanico hair match from 1989, and I think all them are top ten apuestas matches for me. I watched every random tag I could find via dataincash etc. I loved his 1992 match vs Perro as well even it is a drop off from the 1986 one. He's got the Villano 3 match as well, and we have some footage of a match vs. Faraon (a part one on youtube and highlights Rah upped). He's got the Ringo Mendoza match as well. I tried to not let scarcity affect my judgment one way or the other but from what we have I no problem calling him the best lucha brawler ever. Seems like a guy that would almost certainly be in my top ten even if there was just a little bit more but I tried to stay reasonable with his ranking. I still remember watching a random trios and the camera following him as he walked his entrance from the backstage area to the ring and it was one of the most powerful things I ever saw. He had a special presence. Him making a comeback in the trios that took place a week after the MS-1 hair match is as loud as I've ever heard a crowd. And I honestly believe the MS-1 hair match reached a higher level of wrestling. There are moments in that match where they're both selling exhaustion yet continue to go for pins as often as possible and somehow *everything* turns into a viable nearfall. And then there's the greatest post-match ever. If you're gonna judge someone on two matches (again-I didn't) they better be as great as those two.

[cad]

The Satanico match from 1989 was mano a mano. If it was an apuestas match they would have both lost their hair.

 

His feud with La Fiera in 1993 is disappointing in my opinion but I'm not a big fan of tecnico Fiera so that might not be on Chicana. The hair vs hair match is on alexoblivion's Dailymotion page if you haven't seen it.

[DR Ackermann]

 

 

I LOVE LOVE LOVE Backlund in New Japan/UWF/Battlarts and I remember digging him in the 90s WWF stuff as well so I watched some 70s/80s WW(W?)F stuff of his to see how he was there and it didn't do anything for me and thus didn't feel compelled to rank him. If his home promotion's style was closer to what I value in wrestling I'm almost certain he would be on my list.

Have you seen his hour draw with Valentine?

No, should I?

Yeah. I think its pretty great. As far as hour draws go I think it's the second best I've seen after Bock/Hennig. It made me a fan of Backlund's.

[Exposer]

Scorp had a great '08 in general. At the time, I liked his matches with Callihan and Necro more than his Claudio match.

 

Meanwhile, Generico needs to bite the dust. The idea that he could finish 20-25 spots higher than Ki and Hero irks me.

Yep. I like Zayn & he'd probably make my top 150 but he's not better than Ki or Hero at all.

[jpchicago23]

PWO GWE Project - The Matches

 

YouTube

Playlist:

 

Man huge props for putting this Playlist together. This will help me with discovering the guys I didn't rank or ranked low in the top 100.

[Death From Above]

 

Andre will rank higher on this list, but Andre couldn't do shit with Hogan in 1980. Backlund got a GREAT match out of him.

 

The Shea stadium match is really good. YOU ARE WEIRD, JERRY

[Cap]

I get that Nak is not everyone's cup of tea, but I actually don't think he gets enough credit for his pre-personality-boom stuff. I thought he was quite good, if a little bland. His blandness doesn't really stand out that much to me, especially in the mid to late 2000s. His match with Brock was really fun. The first Nakamura match ever saw was his 2004 match with Bob Sapp. I got the show dvd on a whim probably a year or so after it happened. i came away thinking "Holy cow, Nakamura is good". I am not saying it is a classic, but he worked Bob Sapp so well and I thought both men wound up looking pretty good.

 

His whole more recent stuff is absolutely fantastic to me. I get that he takes nights off and he is also probably the worst guy to bring in for a one off on an indy show because the match inevitably gets off the rails with whoever he is going against trying to play off his mannerisms so much (the match is usually at least 1/3rd cheap pops). That said, his high end stuff is just great. Both matches with Okada from the last two G-1s are awesome to me (much better than either man vs Tanahashi as far as I am concerned). I still believe the Ibushi match is aces. The La Sombra match from 2013 was a really well put together match with tons of drama and intensity. The recent Styles match was really good (not elite, but it delivered). I am also super high on the Zayn match, which I think is probably the match of the year so far for me. All told, there probably isn't anyone I would be more confident in betting on to have a 4.75-5 star match in a big spot right now. Even if you just took him from like 2013 to now, I am not sure many people have more high end matches in that amount of time. Pretty elite in my eyes.

[Dylan Waco]

Nakamura is almost as greatest hits as Brock in the top 100. I suspected both might happen, but I don't like either, and they are both guys that I really enjoy when they are on their A game.

 

Also agree on Zayn. I don't hate the guy, but I don't see him as anything near a top 100 worker. Always thought the bulk of his indie work was good but overrated.

[Timbo Slice]

What's pushing Zayn is that he's got an aesthetically pleasing style, his selling is dramatic as a perennial babyface, and he has enough high profile stuff that recency bias can make his best stuff in the last couple years in NXT really make his case for some people. I'm not buying it in the slightest, especially considering it's a snowball effect of indy stuff that, while good in some aspects, isn't nearly as good as Ki or Hero's best stuff, and really, not nearly as good as Cesaro's best stuff, either. He really seems like one of those likable guys that does cool stuff and fits that babyface archetype that nowadays is a true rarity.

[Timbo Slice]

Like, if Samoa Joe seriously falls below Zayn in all this (regardless of placement), recency bias might be the biggest contributor to these rankings, even more than availability of footage.

[Jimmy Redman]

What's pushing Zayn is that he's got an aesthetically pleasing style, his selling is dramatic as a perennial babyface, and he has enough high profile stuff that recency bias can make his best stuff in the last couple years in NXT really make his case for some people. I'm not buying it in the slightest, especially considering it's a snowball effect of indy stuff that, while good in some aspects, isn't nearly as good as Ki or Hero's best stuff, and really, not nearly as good as Cesaro's best stuff, either. He really seems like one of those likable guys that does cool stuff and fits that babyface archetype that nowadays is a true rarity.

 

I think his indy work blows Cesaro's indy work completely out of the water. Like, it's not even remotely close.

 

Sami is one of the very best babyfaces of this generation, and he's been so for almost a decade now.

 

I get the recency bias in that he's in NXT and high profile now, but you can say the same thing about Joe frankly. There were people actually saying that they'd left Joe aside as a candidate until his recent NXT work reminded them of him.

 

I didn't put him above Joe, but if he finishes above Joe I wouldn't be outraged or surprised. Joe had a LOT of dead years in TNA, and while they're both indy/NXT guys they aren't all that similar as workers to the point where putting one over the other is outrageous.

[JRGoldman]

I had Zayn on my ballot, below Hero but just ahead of Low Ki (Ki was 92 and Zayn was 87). I think it's worth noting that Zayn is the only of the Golden Age indie guys to have a pretty robust tag resume as well as a solid singles career. I could see someone considering that in their ranking for Zayn. Of course a lot of his run is on a smaller scale than many other top 100 picks, but not too many people can claim to be Ricky Steamboat and Ricky Morton at various points in their career.