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Grimmas

Reactions to the List: 50-26

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Robinson is one of the guys where I actually agree on the "if only we had more footage" line. He's a genuine shame of lost footage at this point.

 

Still think Finlay needs to go, way moreso than Punk or Brock.

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I meant to have Robinson on my list. I misplaced his name at some point near the end when I was finalizing my list with some changes. I regret it even more now as he would of made it a little higher with my vote. I did same damn thing with Dustin.

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Oh come on. Robinson down but not Lesnar? And I even voted for Lesnar, but this is too much.

You Lesnar voters need to take a moment of reflection over what you have wrought.

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Wow, this list was definitely not kind to joshi.

 

This list was not kind to anything but mainstream. It's ironic that with all the footage explosion, the Top 100 is more centered than ever on mainstream US guys. I think Post Benoit Workrate guilt and criticism relativism (with the awful "he played his role well" arguments which led to stuff like "Kamala was very good" and other absurd way of thinking of that ilk) played a part in this, since Japan was always seen as "workrate territory", as was lucha in a way. The only japanese guys who will gain from this are the ones who have been pimped hardcore over the last few years, by that I mean the two Fujis (who did deserve better than their spot of 2006), same thing for one or two territory guys (Lawler & Rose). Like I predicted early, a very conservative list. Ric Flair should win.

 

So yeah, Aja Kong is #49 and the last woman to make the list. Kinda embarrassing for such a great wrestler.

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I don't understand this conservative list complaint. What, do you want a Dragon Gate guy in the top 10? Weren't people voting for the GWE, not to make the most unpredictable list possible?

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I have to say that all women competitors being exalted by #49 is pretty disappointing. I am not trying to make this into a social justice list but that does seem striking to me.

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I don't see it as a social justice thing considering the shoot guys (save for what, Fujiwara?) and the WoS guys (save for maybe Finlay and Regal but that's not where their case is made) are pretty much gone too. It's a genre thing, not a sexism thing.

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Yes. It's all about mainstream US wrestling taking over this time around. Let's not kid ourselves, if a guy like Tajiri did really well, it's because of his US career. If Regal and Finlay (who's WWE career is ridiculously overrated from what I've seen) are so high, same thing.

 

I guess I'm guilty of this as much as anyone since I never dig into lucha and WoS, but I did rate a bunch of women and shoot-style guys, including at very high spots.

 

Anyway, really curious to see how the top 50 will be put together, especially some specific guys.

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What genre does Kong have compared to most of joshi though? Her matches don't seem much more high impact compared to male counterparts. Ditto on Hokuto.

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I don't understand this conservative list complaint. What, do you want a Dragon Gate guy in the top 10? Weren't people voting for the GWE, not to make the most unpredictable list possible?

 

You can agree or disagree with his point, but its pretty clear that it was not a call for unpredictability.

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I don't understand this conservative list complaint. What, do you want a Dragon Gate guy in the top 10? Weren't people voting for the GWE, not to make the most unpredictable list possible?

I do, lol

 

Are we forgetting Brock had an elite two years and then the Eddie match? It's not just his return stuff. Do I think he should've been rated this highly? No. But I think the outrage of him staying on at this point is a little ridiculous.

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I don't understand this conservative list complaint. What, do you want a Dragon Gate guy in the top 10? Weren't people voting for the GWE, not to make the most unpredictable list possible?

 

You can agree or disagree with his point, but its pretty clear that it was not a call for unpredictability.

 

Actually it wasn't clear, because I don't know what a "conservative" list means. Asking for clarification.

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I really enjoy Finlay, but this is someone who never struck me as that great of a worker. Super solid, yeah. Even more than that. But he never put it together to have special matches, whereas Regal did (despite being put more or less in the same position). I had seen some of his most vaunted WWE match, and I was not that impressed. His WCW work is excellent, but he also never found a way to get himself over. And it's not a matter of not getting a push. Finlay winning the TV title early in one PPV in 98 deflated the crowd hard. His New Japan sting in the 90's is mediocre. Way overrated on this list. Would have made my top 150 or 200 without an issue, but I don't see him as a Top 50 guy ever at all.

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I really enjoy Finlay, but this is someone who never struck me as that great of a worker. Super solid, yeah. Even more than that. But he never put it together to have special matches, whereas Regal did (despite being put more or less in the same position). I had seen some of his most vaunted WWE match, and I was not that impressed. His WCW work is excellent, but he also never found a way to get himself over. And it's not a matter of not getting a push. Finlay winning the TV title early in one PPV in 98 deflated the crowd hard. His New Japan sting in the 90's is mediocre. Way overrated on this list. Would have made my top 150 or 200 without an issue, but I don't see him as a Top 50 guy ever at all.

 

Basically where I am on Finlay as well. Just never connected with me. Always solid but just never special unless in with Regal. He's a common favorite of many people who's tastes are often similar to mine, but for some reason I've never been able to see the light here.

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I found the idea that Finlay was the best in the world in 2006 ridiculous at the time, and still think it absurd now. He was just having solid little matches with nice little touches in a style different to everyone else on the card, not churning out classics every show. It was unexpected and enjoyable rather than exciting and incredible. People seemed to be in raptures that he struggled over every move and hit some nice strikes.

 

My opinion at the time was that he was perfect for a solid, unspectacular midcard effort that was pretty faultless for what it was...but he was either unwilling or unable to take his matches to the next level and deliver on all the build. That is admittedly in stark contrast to most top WWE guys, who know how to generate excitement and interest down the stretch but are so unable to create any build or tension in the first half of a match that all the nearfalls and counters become meaningless, so he benefits from that comparison somewhat.

 

That was the year of that Benoit/Regal/Finlay comp of all their matches, so I imagined he was at his peak in terms of smart fan acclaim. It seems his appeal still holds strong.

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Top 10 by average before the final 50 roll out:

Kiyoshi Tamura (31.11 / 55 ballots)

Jim Breaks (36.28 / 67)

Akira Hokuto (37.45 / 76)

Yuki Ishikawa (40.22 / 54)

Azumi Hyuga (43.25 / 4)

Volk Han (44.60 / 68)

Susumu Yokosuka (45.00 / 3)

Bull Nakano (46.81 / 72)

Chigusa Nagayo (46.84 / 37)

Jaguar Yokota (46.91 / 34)

 

This pretty much tells the tale on joshi workers. Half of that list is women with only one getting less than 30 votes. It looks like anyone who voted for them put them high on his/her list. Compare that Shoot Style/World of Sport/Lucha where it only seems like certain well-known workers, comparatively speaking, got strong support.

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Finlay has great matches in 4 decades in several different styles. It's not all in that 2006 run. He's still about 15 spots too low.

 

Aja took some beatings during the discussions, with people calling her overrated and boring etc. I actually watched some of her Arsion stuff in the last week and it wasn't too hot. She also really hasn't done much in the 2000s compared to Satomura. Wonder if I haven't overrated her placing her in my 60s.

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I find Aja anything but boring. Had that aura and innate charisma that was engrossing. The perfect foil for most of the AJW roster at that time. Have seen very little of her work after 1995, but her peak is astonishing.

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