Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Eegah]

Its a joy to me that Eaton finished so highly. I had him in my top 20. I dont think there is anything in the ring that Eaton couldnt do good to great. He could work face or heel, obviously the tag stuff is tremendous as he could team with anyone and youd have a good team. Singles wise I enjoy the hell out of him, he worked so much on the b and c shows that I saw him a ton and its still stuff I revisit. Great fire and timing, knows how to work a crowd and whether its 2 minutes or 20 he will give you your moneys worth. Hes also got an all time head of salad on top, perfection in a bleach blonde mullet.

[Grimmas]

Cena smokes Toyota, come on.

[Dylan Waco]

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

[anarchistxx]

I think Cena's body of work brutally destroys all three of the aforementioned Joshi workers combined, but I say that as someone who firmly believes that there is far more good tv wrestling now than at any point in history.

 

TV wrestling at the minute does absolutely nothing for me. There is no reason to get invested in most of it, whether that be the booking that makes every finish meaningless or the lack of credible, interesting, fleshed out characters on the roster. Sure, there are a lot of matches that fit the definition of a good television match - I suppose what used to be called workrate matches. Problem is, seeing Kevin Owens wrestle Dolph Ziggler or even Cesaro for fifteen minutes just does nothing for me because none of it means anything.

 

There was a time I might have agreed with you, when The Shield were having those fantastic six mans and Goldust & Cody were pulling out the stops and Daniel Bryan, CM Punk et al were wrestling on television every week. Now I think they are in a massive rut, despite the number of ostensibly good matches they are churning out. A *** match is only a *** match if you care about it.

[Childs]

 

 

Outside of the hardest of the hardcores, Bret has been pushed as one the greatest wrestlers ever for at least 20 years, so even at a place like PWO, I don't think it's that surprising that he's going to end up where he does.

 

Does his career match up to a lot of the others in the top 100 based solely on in-ring, consistency, and longevity? No it doesn't, but it seems like only a relatively small percentage of voters are basing their lists entirely on those criteria

 

Here is the thing. If I start factoring in those other things (promos, presence as a character, angles, drawing power, et) I don't see how they really help Bret's case either.

 

 

Not part of Bret's case, but we are seeing that emotional attachment and voting for favorites is responsible for boosting a lot of guys who don't stack up to those who check all the boxes. But not enough to affect the top 10 I believe

 

 

Like Savage?

 

I kid, I kid.

[Dylan Waco]

I think this has been a down year for them in that regard, as was last year. But Cena has been absent for a huge chunk of that. He's not the tv worker that Rey was/is but no one is. In terms of volume of output Cena ranks in the top tier of wrestling history as far as I'm concerned.

[MikeF]

I love that Morton and Eaton finished as high as they did. IMO, Eaton is actually part of 3 of the Top 25 tag teams of all-time (2 Midnight Express + w/ Koko).

 

I didn't vote for Cena (or any other Modern WWE wrestler) as I find the product unwatchable. I keep trying to watch it, but I can't take it. I understand I might be on an island with that opinion.

[Matt D]

I'm excited to explain my bitchy reasons for ranking Cena at 51 right under Fuerza later this week.

[El Boricua]

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I think there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE.

[Ricky Jackson]

 

 

 

Outside of the hardest of the hardcores, Bret has been pushed as one the greatest wrestlers ever for at least 20 years, so even at a place like PWO, I don't think it's that surprising that he's going to end up where he does.

 

Does his career match up to a lot of the others in the top 100 based solely on in-ring, consistency, and longevity? No it doesn't, but it seems like only a relatively small percentage of voters are basing their lists entirely on those criteria

 

Here is the thing. If I start factoring in those other things (promos, presence as a character, angles, drawing power, et) I don't see how they really help Bret's case either.

 

 

Not part of Bret's case, but we are seeing that emotional attachment and voting for favorites is responsible for boosting a lot of guys who don't stack up to those who check all the boxes. But not enough to affect the top 10 I believe

 

 

Like Savage?

 

I kid, I kid.

 

 

Oh it's absolutely true for me. I had Bruno at number 12 remember

[pol]

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

 

Fair point, but I don't see that one as an injustice as far as "where are these guys ranking vs. where WOULD they rank if everyone had seen everything?" I think they would do well either way.

 

I think there is something to the idea that if people familiarised themselves with new stuff for the purposes of the project, it was largely US stuff (which is supported by the number of people saying "I didn't have time to look at joshi/shoot style/lucha")

[Matt D]

 

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I thin there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE.

 

The wrestling didn't change. We changed.

[jdw]

Ah, the infamous "Robert Gibson was actually playing Ricky Morton" argument. That was not his most glorious hour to say the least.

 

We all have things that don't look good in hindsight.

[Cox]

A lot of it comes to the variety of partners creating a sort of compelling illusion of variety to me, the fact that I'm higher than most people on Eaton's babyface work (even if I also probably like Morton's heel work more than most)

 

Somewhat off-topic, but seeing this made me wonder if Morton ever worked Eaton in 1991 WCW while Morton was heel and Eaton was babyface. There was only about a 5 month or so overlap there to where this could have happened, but that would have been just so weird to watch, I really hope it happened.

[anarchistxx]

Cena smokes Toyota, come on.

 

Not sure he does really. He has never made me emotionally invested in his matches the way she can. The John Cena matches that have me transfixed are either due to the context (RVD @ ECW Arena) or the opponent (Daniel Bryan) or the situation (CM Punk @ Money In The Bank). His matches are also elevated by the perverse interest in seeing how the crowd reacts. He usually delivers in his big matches, but I've also seen him have some awful spectacles when in there with a Randy Orton or a charisma vacuum like Alberto del Rio. I don't find many of his supposed carry jobs to be that interesting.

 

Sure, it is easy to criticize Toyota for the go go style and lack of selling, but what about John Cena working the same bloated WWE style main event for over a decade? Of the fact that even as a prolific television worker he has a real lack of top matches in that setting, and really struggles to make his minor matches mean anything.

 

He's never been in a match as incredible as Dream Rush, or as exciting as Dreamslam II, or as engaging as the hair match with Yamada. Toyota/Inoue going an hour absolutely smokes that incredibly tedious Orton/Cena IronMan.

[Matt D]

 

A lot of it comes to the variety of partners creating a sort of compelling illusion of variety to me, the fact that I'm higher than most people on Eaton's babyface work (even if I also probably like Morton's heel work more than most)

 

Somewhat off-topic, but seeing this made me wonder if Morton ever worked Eaton in 1991 WCW while Morton was heel and Eaton was babyface. There was only about a 5 month or so overlap there to where this could have happened, but that would have been just so weird to watch, I really hope it happened.

 

This is a fun novelty, though not quite what you're looking for:

 

 

There's a Eaton/Big Josh vs York Foundation match, but it's Taylor/Rich.

[jdw]

 

Goldust is as much a mainstream US guy as Michaels. (funny how some people just don't understand something super simple)

 

Holy shit, those two pics of Michaels.

 

I'm amazed that Michaels actually gained spots since last time. For all the criticism he gets around here, most of it valid, he still managed to win more than ten spots. I guess all because of a bunch of self-conscious epics at Mania against Cena & Taker. Post 2002 Michaels seems to be some of the most divisive body of work ever, either you love it, either you hate it. Haven't seen all of it, although quite a bit of the big matches, and although I do think there's some to love, much of it isn't worthy of the high praise it gets. Do we need to mention again that the "Sorry, I love you" match with Flair is one of the most ridiculous overacted melodramamatch ever, and a staple of awful modern WWE manufactured "Mania Moments" ?

 

Well, I had Micheals at #78.

Does Goldust work in a mainstream company? Yes.

Goldust is highly regarded among mainstream fans? No.

 

Claiming this is a ballot where mainstream fans highly influenced it seems silly to me.

 

 

Good lord, has anyone in this thread used the term "mainstream" in this thread to mean the people who would rank #1 among mainstream fans?

 

That would be Hogan, Austin, Rock or maybe Shawn with an outside chance.

 

Clearly not a single poster in the thread means that.

 

Are people just being intentionally obtuse about the point?

[RIPPA]

 

A lot of it comes to the variety of partners creating a sort of compelling illusion of variety to me, the fact that I'm higher than most people on Eaton's babyface work (even if I also probably like Morton's heel work more than most)

 

Somewhat off-topic, but seeing this made me wonder if Morton ever worked Eaton in 1991 WCW while Morton was heel and Eaton was babyface. There was only about a 5 month or so overlap there to where this could have happened, but that would have been just so weird to watch, I really hope it happened.

 

 

If you specifically mean Richard Morton vs. Bobby Eaton - it was only on house shows not on tape during that time

 

Edit - well with the caveat that I guess there could be a handheld I haven't seen yet...

[Matt D]

Oh wait, I found this.

 

 

But you have to put up with the Patriots. Sorry.

[Dylan Waco]

 

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

 

Fair point, but I don't see that one as an injustice as far as "where are these guys ranking vs. where WOULD they rank if everyone had seen everything?" I think they would do well either way.

 

 

That was really my point.

 

You see injustice in one place, but not in the other. I get that. But I don't think it's for the reasons you mentioned.

 

The Japanese sacred cow bubble has popped for many

[pol]

To put it another way, I think potentially niche US candidates like Buddy were clearly done less dirty due to being niche than luchadors, women or shoot-style workers. Stompers' post supports this, although obviously that's just one guy. Would be interesting to see if it's true of others too.

[Loss]

Cena smokes Toyota, come on.

 

This may or may not be the case, but I think we should do the legwork and *then* form a conclusion, rather than working backwards.

[Bierschwale]

 

 

People pointing to individual examples of a luchador placing over a US favorite to show how 'not mainstream' the list is is getting pretty tedious. For what it's worth I think it's less a matter of "mainstream" and more of both US workers and workers that made their case in the last 10 years over-indexing (thanks Parv).

 

I would be far more sympathetic to this argument if the top 25 wasn't shaping up to be filled with Japanese wrestlers who peaked before 2006.

 

Heck, of all of the wrestlers yet to be listed, I think there's only 5 (maybe 6) where you can argue their active work since 2006 helps their case. Everybody else has not been active or their work since has almost no bearing (IMO) of their case for GWE.

 

Akiyama, Bryan, Casas, Regal, Rey... Misawa's last run doesn't change him in where he is. Liger, just a little?

 

Yeah, it's a small group.

[cad]

So that's Mexico sealed and delivered. The only thing left to find out is where Negro Casas ranks overall.

 

1. Negro Casas

2. Hijo del Santo

3. Dandy

4. Satanico

5. Blue Panther--too high but he's always been rated at this level

6. Atlantis

7. Sangre Chicana

8. La Parka

9. Virus--Virus over Pirata and Villano III I wouldn't have guessed, not complaining though

--TOP 100--

10. Pirata Morgan

11. Perro Aguayo--not at the level of worker of the guys around him

12. Villano III

13. Black Terry

14. Fuerza Guerrera--a little low, kind of surprising

15. Fiera

16. Negro Navarro--another guy I thought would do better

17. Psicosis--feels high, but I have no idea what any of his work is like after about 1999

18. Mocho Cota--either too high or too low

19. MS-1

20. Emilio Charles Jr.--MS-1 and Emilio finishing b2b on the overall list is a success

--TOP 200--

21. Brazo de Plata--Perro Sr. should have finished around here

22. Juventud Guerrera--not sure if he's here for his work in Mexico

23. Solar

24. Dr. Wagner Jr.

25. Mascarita Dorada

26. Super Astro--I expected him to do better

27. Dos Caras

--TOP 300--

28. Ultimo Guerrero

29. Mascarita Sagrada

30. Lizmark

31. Espanto Jr.

32. Perro Aguayo Jr.

33. Art Barr--?? not sure if he counts but most of his case is from Mexico, isn't it? Shouldn't be top 500

34. Bestia Salvaje

35. Cassandro

36. Brazo de Oro

37. Rush

38. Espectrito

39. Angel Azteca

40. Cien Caras

--TOP 400--

41. Octagon--not top 500 material, but I'd take him over Love Machine

42. Canek

43. Jerry Estrada--way too low

44. Mistico

45. Villano IV

46. Ciclon Ramirez--these lower guys have been bundled pretty tightly on the big list, but I wish he'd ended up next to Angel Azteca

47. Cicloncito Ramirez--not bad for someone who wasn't nominated

48. Super Crazy--?? I assume he's here mostly for his US work

49. Dr. Cerebro

50. Trauma II

51. Silver King

52. Trauma I

53. Pequeño Pierroth

--TOP 500--

54. Javier Cruz

54. Felino--you know, I like Felino and Cruz equally too

56. Pimpinela Escarlata

56. Hombre Bala

58. Hector Garza

59. Freelance

60. Gran Apache

61. Faraon--I've always considered Faraon a slightly better Shane McMahon myself

62. Pierroth Jr.

63. Barbaro Cavernario

64. Konnan Big

64. Rayo de Jalisco Jr.--I seriously did think that people loved his twirly dance moves and not that one #100 vote had gone uncounted

64. Demus 3:16

 

No better than the countless wrestlers who went unnominated:

- Chico Che

- El Brazo

- Javier Llanes

- Kung Fu

- Rey Hechicero

 

If I missed someone please try not to get too mad.

[Dylan Waco]

To put it another way, I think potentially niche US candidates like Buddy were clearly done less dirty due to being niche than luchadors, women or shoot-style workers. Stompers' post supports this, although obviously that's just one guy. Would be interesting to see if it's true of others too.

 

I think from the available evidence of people who have talked about things publicly we know that a lot of people are just generally down on lucha, Joshi, and shoot-style. WOS is a separate bag, but I'd be willing to bet that the number of people omitting certain folks from the other categories has as much to do with not liking those styles as it does with not watching any of it all because they never got to any of it.