Reactions to the List: 50-26

[Grimmas]

 

Always wondered how people would view Bret's career absent Montreal. What if he just went to Turner without that incredible goodwill?

Wouldn't change anything for me.

[WingedEagle]

You don't know that. No one does. Can't pretend things did or didn't happen. Might change one's perspective or might not. But its a part of history and his legacy.

[Childs]

Austin is the worst guy still hanging around and has been for awhile. But I imagine he appeared on the vast majority of ballots in addition to being a strong emotional choice for some. He's another one with 1/3 the quality years of Akiyama, if he's lucky.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think it's clear at all that Austin is a worse candidate than Bret, and Austin has the benefit of being one of the biggest stars in wrestling history. I think he's outrageously high, but I also get why he is.

 

I had Akiyama at 8. By the time 2026 hits he could be in the running for my top spot. I love Taue, but it's really hard for me to see a case for him over Akiyama if you paid any attention at all to Japan in the 2000's-present.

[joeg]

I think Akiyama is hurt though because the last 5 years or so he's been putting on amazing performances in struggling promotions that nobody pays attention to anymore. Its the sort of thing where if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it did it really happen sort of thing.

[MoS]

I had Austin at no. 12, and I am now feeling guilty. *slinks off quietly into into the shadows*

[elliott]

 

 

Always wondered how people would view Bret's career absent Montreal. What if he just went to Turner without that incredible goodwill?

Wouldn't change anything for me.

 

 

I've tried to avoid "What If's" throughout the course of this, but now that it is winding down, and Bret is going to rank at least 50 spots higher than where I had him ranked, for me the big "WHat If" with Bret is simply "What if he just fucking stayed in WWE?"

 

He probably is the guy to pass the torch to Austin in another high profile classic.

He probably has some fun shit with Foley, Pre-Mega Star & Eventual Mega Star Rock.

Shamrock gets a dude to work with when he isn't hurt.

I can picture fun RAW matches with randoms like Val Venis, Bob Holly, D'Lo, Mark Henry

After Shawn leaves we probably get a HHH feud before hunter turned into the worst thing ever

He was always a good Undertaker opponent. And you know they would have more matches.

 

Assuming he doesn't get hurt, then you've got Bret against Rey Jr, Angle, Guerrero, Voldemort, Jericho. Guys like Cena, Orton, Batista etc have a veteran to work with that isn't actually terrible like post comeback HBK, or "prime" HHH.

 

If Bret stays maybe guys like Orton, Edge, and Angle end up better wrestlers. Shit, Owen probably doesn't have to do that stupid stunt but we won't get into that.

 

If he'd have just stayed he might have made my top 75.

[Childs]

I don't think it's clear at all that Austin is a worse candidate than Bret, and Austin has the benefit of being one of the biggest stars in wrestling history. I think he's outrageously high, but I also get why he is.

 

I had Akiyama at 8. By the time 2026 hits he could be in the running for my top spot. I love Taue, but it's really hard for me to see a case for him over Akiyama if you paid any attention at all to Japan in the 2000's-present.

Going by your main criteria, I'd have Akiyama higher as well--very good to great for longer and in more roles, with greater consistency overall. I guess for me, his higher end performances have never quite connected at the level of Taue's best. I find the Taue-Kawada dynamic pretty remarkable. They went from a convincing blood feud to forming one of the great partnerships in wrestling, built on a shared belief in professional loyalty. And they paid that off with the greatest in-ring performances I've ever seen. For all his logical advantages, Akiyama has never done anything that meant as much to me as that. Taue did plenty of other great stuff besides, but I can't deny that my preference for him is ultimately an emotional one.

[joeg]

Does how poorly Akiyama was booked for his entire career hurt him in something like this? I really can't think of anybody who was a bigger victim of bad booking than Akiyama. Anywhere, ever. The affect of Akiyama's shitty booking limited the number of big matches he had during his peak years, hurt all of Japanese wrestling, and limited how many people saw his matches. Basically what I'm asking is had he been booked strong in the early to mid 2000s and given the chance to run with the ball he deserved would he have finished a top 5 - 10 guy?

[pol]

I respect the perspective that places a premium on duration of quality, but for my personal taste it seems awfully dry to turn the idea of Greatness into whoever can rack up the most years as a good-to-great performer (I know this is reductive). I don't think it's unreasonable to care more about highs, and I can totally see someone preferring Taue's highs.

[Childs]

Does how poorly Akiyama was booked for his entire career hurt him in something like this? I really can't think of anybody who was a bigger victim of bad booking than Akiyama. Anywhere, ever. The affect of Akiyama's shitty booking limited the number of big matches he had during his peak years, hurt all of Japanese wrestling, and limited how many people saw his matches. Basically what I'm asking is had he been booked strong in the early to mid 2000s and given the chance to run with the ball he deserved would he have finished a top 5 - 10 guy?

Maybe but it's not like we're lacking big-match performances from Akiyama. He still had a ton. He's probably hurt more by the fact 2000s puro--his peak era--is a relative blind spot for many voters. I think that's where GOTNW's frustration comes in, and I get that.

[Dylan Waco]

I respect the perspective that places a premium on duration of quality, but for my personal taste it seems awfully dry to turn the idea of Greatness into whoever can rack up the most years as a good-to-great performer. I don't think it's unreasonable to care more about highs, and I can totally see someone preferring Taue's highs.

 

I don't view it solely as that, but it is a factor. I just can't pretend someone being great for two years and sucking for ten trumps, someone who was very good for twenty.

 

What I don't get about the Taue v. Akiyama comparison is the idea that Taue's peak is clearly better to the point where it would negate all the other advantages Akiyama has. I can see the argument for Taue's peak being better (not sure I'd buy it, but I can see it), but so much better that it means Akiyama having a much longer run of greatness? I just can't buy it.

[JRGoldman]

I think it's natural that a lot of voters would consciously or subconsciously give wrestlers preferential rankings for promo work, because it's hard to separate from overall charisma. I think it's why Austin is so high, I think it's why Foley was so high, and I think it's part of the reason that Macho Man is so high. I get it, and I don't say it as a judgement. I actually felt when my ballot was done that I had made such an effort to not have promos effect rankings that the pendulum swung a bit to far the other way for me.

[joeg]

I just look at Akiyama and think it would have been so easy to make him (almost) as big of a star as Misawa and Kobashi. 1- Don't drop the title to Ogawa in 4 minutes in his first reign. 2- win his match vs Kobashi at the Dome. That happens NOAH doesn't need to push juniors as heavyweights. The company doesn't fall off of a cliff everytime Kobashi gets hurt and Misawa dies because they have Akiyama to rely on.

[pol]

 

I respect the perspective that places a premium on duration of quality, but for my personal taste it seems awfully dry to turn the idea of Greatness into whoever can rack up the most years as a good-to-great performer. I don't think it's unreasonable to care more about highs, and I can totally see someone preferring Taue's highs.

 

I don't view it solely as that, but it is a factor. I just can't pretend someone being great for two years and sucking for ten trumps, someone who was very good for twenty.

 

What I don't get about the Taue v. Akiyama comparison is the idea that Taue's peak is clearly better to the point where it would negate all the other advantages Akiyama has. I can see the argument for Taue's peak being better (not sure I'd buy it, but I can see it), but so much better that it means Akiyama having a much longer run of greatness? I just can't buy it.

 

 

For me, after a certain point, more years as a good-to-great wrestler feels like resume padding. I'm not sure I could say where that point is other than enough to show that you could be consistently great and weren't a flash in the pan/didn't burn out quickly. I don't see Akiyama's 23 years of good-to-great work as adding a great deal more to his case than Taue's 15. It still counts for something of course, and in the case of those two specific guys probably does give Akiyama the edge, but that's because—like yourself—I'm not entirely sold on Taue having the better peak. If I was I could totally see placing him higher.

[kjh]

I just look at Akiyama and think it would have been so easy to make him (almost) as big of a star as Misawa and Kobashi. 1- Don't drop the title to Ogawa in 4 minutes in his first reign. 2- win his match vs Kobashi at the Dome. That happens NOAH doesn't need to push juniors as heavyweights. The company doesn't fall off of a cliff everytime Kobashi gets hurt and Misawa dies because they have Akiyama to rely on.

 

1. is a given. I think how I would have booked it is have Sasaki beat Kobashi for the belt at the '05 Dome show and build to Akiyama winning the belt after you'd run through other title contenders. Ironically this is what they did three years later, but by that point it didn't pack the punch it would have done if they had gone all the way with Sasaki in his debut.

[pol]

My understanding (as told by GOTNW) is that Akiyama booked a lot of that stuff himself and never wanted to be cast in the ace role.

[coyote]

Long time lurker here, enjoying the "Prevent Shawn Michaels From Being Top 25" list so far.

[Timbo Slice]

I'm such an unabashed Taue mark that him not being Top 25 saddens me. I still had him ranked over Akiyama because I enjoyed his NOAH run so much, and while his post peak isn't as long as Akiyama's, I think it's still comparable. There's an argument made that in every singles match he had in NOAH that it was that wrestler's best NOAH match, maybe outside of Misawa. Also sad there was never a Taue/Takayama match or a Taue/Suzuki match.

 

There are definitely issues I have with the list (For example, so many workers getting discounted for not having as much new stuff since the 2006 list while BRET HART is gonna make the Top 25) but overall, I can't complain too much. Regal making the Top 25 is unbelievable.

[bestintheworld3589]

Names from my list featured yesterday
Ricky Morton (41)

Bobby Eaton (38)

Dustin Rhodes (34)

John Cena (17)

Shawn Michaels (10)

 

I'm really surprised John Cena didn't make at least the Top 25. I feel he deserves to be there more than Barry Windham since Cena has had way more top matches for a longer consistent period of time than Windham had. Also people were comparing Barry Windham to Dustin Rhodes and even in that argument Dustin should be higher as he was having really great runs in WWE long after WIndham had retired. For the record Windham is the last person to be revealed that I had in the bottom half of my ballot, I had him at 51.

[El-P]

Who gives a shit, Taue was in the same spot as 2006!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's amazing ! And Taue is the firts guy who got at the exact spot I had him too #26 !

 

As far as Akiyama not getting higher, you just have to blame me. I *forgot* to vote for Akiyama. And it's obvious he would have made it higher than Taue on my list. So yeah, Mea Culpa Maxima.

[Goodear]

IS Barry Windham still out there? I'm a little surprised he is still kicking around after Ricky Morton and Bobby Eaton have dropped.

[coyote]

Regal being this high is a joke. Guy couldn't main event a flea market, ever.

[KB8]

I'll cop some shit for Akiyama as well. I watched some old grumpy Akiyama performances in the week before the deadline (they were good, of course), but I just haven't seen enough of him from the last ten years or so to feel comfortable ranking him up in the top 20, which is about where it feels like he could go if I had a better picture of him from around '06 through to the present day. I'll throw it on the to do list for 2026.

[Badlittlekitten]

My gut tells me Regal is too high but he's somebody I didn't get round to rewatching. Still I had him at 48. I ask this question genuinely - how often did his ring work get over with US crowds on the big stage? I seem to remember quite a few heatless matches.

 

I had Akiyama down at 72 as I grew sick of AJ/Noah by the time I got to year 2000 in my viewing so I've missed some of he's most famed work. The other native AJ workers of the period were in a cluster together with Kawada being the highest at 27.

 

Was hoping Santo would make it higher. At #4 he's my highest ranked luchadore. Despite the flaws it was he's tremendous rudo work that edged him one spot over Satanico.

.