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Reactions to the List: 10-1


Grimmas

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As a huge Misawa mark I'm so happy he ranked above Kobashi and Kawada, I have no issue with people ranking them higher but Misawa just connected more with me as time went along. I also have a weird fascination with his comebacks, I'm not sure anyone else has even attempted to make those kind of comebacks like Misawa and be as effective as him.

 

Bryan is probably my second favorite wrestler ever after Misawa and I had him 15 thinking I couldn't put him any higher. Reading posts in this thread has me thinking he might not actually be overrated as a top 5 wrestler ever, but still...it just feels weird I guess. I rewatched a lot of his indy work and it held up pretty well, I guess I felt like if I put him higher it was me having recency and favorite bias. It's gonna be interesting seeing how much more scrutiny he gets in the next 5-10 years.

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ROH from 2003 until 2006 is very good. Worth watching, especially considering you are putting yourself through hours of self flagellation watching TNA. ROH was the far superior product at that moment in time. From late 2003 onward they also started having some cool feuds and storylines, so it isn't just a ton of workrate matches back to back with no reason to care about them. The crowd is also pretty cool up until all the "This is awesome" bullshit crept in - I remember ROH fans mocking the shit out of TNA fans for inventing that one until they adopted it themselves.

 

Interesting. The idea I have of early ROH is two bland guys in MMA shorts and kickpads doing AJ cosplay for 45 minutes while the crowd is doing dual chants. Maybe I'm completely off on this, and in this case well, one of these days, why not.

 

I didn't know TNA audience were responsible for "this is awesome" chants. Damn them then.

 

 

There is a surprising amount of variety. Early on you get skinny fucks doing stupid flips off cages on wooden floors, so not so good. Later on, you have Homicide and Steve Corino in a barbed wire gore fest on the same card as Samoa Joe & AJ Styles having a pure wrestling battle over the strap. In 2004 stables start to emerge and you get a few genuine heels. By 2005 there is real variety on the cards, high flying spotfests next to long workrate matches with the occasional comedy match thrown in or a Liger/Kobashi/KENTA/other showing up for a random match to make things feel exciting. There are also good storylines and running feuds, Low-Ki/Homicide vs Samoa Joe/Jay Lethal running on and off leading to some fantastic matches, CM Punk's title reign when he flipped and threatened to take the strap to WWSE, best of five series, cage matches, garbage brawls, pure wrestling, bit of everything.

 

By 2006 you have Danielson as the heel champion having long, classic matches on every card and managing to make them all feel individual and different with loads of cool little touches. You have big personalities like Alex Shelley and Jimmy Jacobs. You have the ROH v CZW feud with lots of violent, bloody matches and a storyline that felt genuinely exciting and special at the time. And also workers like Chris Hero and Necro Butcher and others who didn't necessarily fit the blueprint for ROH in 2002 but fitted in well. It also went downhill around this time, with charisma vacuum rubbish like BJ Whitmer, Adam Pearce and Davey Richards moving up the card to replace all the talent lost to WWE and TNA. One of their biggest problem in 2006 was too many chefs - they couldn't pace a card or wanted every match to feel special, so you had the second match on the show going twenty five minutes with tons of high spots and near falls. it just exhausts the crowd and takes away from the main event.

 

So it definitely isn't just a bunch of AJ cosplay, at least not from late 2003 onward where people started developing characters and they got an identity. Sure, there is still the 'pure wrestling' jargon and the slightly smug smart crowd (though they didn't get too annoying until 2006 or so) and a lot of workrate matches that feel like wrestlers have spent too much time watching Puro tapes and not enough time developing charisma and personality, but a lot of the stuff is very enjoyable, reflected by the high placing of a ton of the workers in this poll.

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10. Jerry Lawler

He was my #6. One of the three greatest American pro wrestlers ever, in my opinion.

 

9. Toshiaki Kawada

He was my #3. The second greatest Japanese pro wrestler ever, in my opinion.

 

8. Kenta Kobashi

I have him at #19.

 

7. Rey Misterio Jr.

I have him at #86. I probably would have had him higher if I had seen more of his WWE work.

 

6. Jushin Thunder Liger

I have him at #17.

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I'm guessing Bryan is next at no. 5. Not getting that first ballot WON HOF will prevent him from the top 3 in my eyes. Tied for most overrated in this list with Regal. Good for him for getting so high though. Gotta love that death/unexpected retirement boost. Keep in mind he couldn't even handle a title reign in the safe era.


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My fandom of getting into Japanese wrestling is inherently tied to Misawa. Ive gone back and forth over the years on what I thought of him as a fan. The great matches are undeniable. Revisionist history be damned but there is no doubt the sheer output of great matches and performances Misawa has put out. When I first got onto the internet one of my first searches was for wrestling. I ended up getting varying comps of Best Matches of Insert Year here and I watched. And watched. And watched. I gravitated towards Kawada, I enjoyed then and still enjoy now rooting for the underdog over the perennial. This started the love of mine towards Kawada that still holds true to this day. I tried to have an inherent fairness in my ballot but still favortism lead me to putting Kawada as my top Japanese worker ever. Im fine with that because I still would rather watch Kawada work than any native Japanese worker.

 

Misawa was the definiton of an ace, Id get frustrated with him always winning which shows the greatness of pro wrestling that I could still feel those feeling despite how aware and even jaded Id become at points. In the end, I have no problem with Misawa as the top end Japanese ace. The head drops and self conscious epic arguments have some validity but in the end I do view him as the ultimate pro wrestling ace. What he brought to the table as a worker fit completely for his era. I doubt we will get another like him in the modern age. Yes, the excessiveness definitely played a huge amount to his death. The man obviously loved pro wrestling and risked it all. My respect for him has grown ten fold over the years. Guilt of my fandom definitely led me to not want to watch his matches for a long period of time. Ive watched him again recently and the magneticm and work still stands out. Unfortunately he knew what he was doing and still did it, even when he was tired and obviously looking for a successor he still did it. Thats why i have no problem being the top Japanese wrestler on this list. Was it worth it? No, of course not. Life isnt worth a pro wrestling match or career but he did it and always embodied being the measuring stick.

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I don't understand Rey's ranking. I never will understand Rey's ranking. Don't get me wrong he was a great pro-wrestler, but he played the same role in every match. I can buy him as the best baby face working from underneeth ever. I can't buy him as a top 10 guy. A top 15 guy. A top 20 guy? If I am overlooking something and he was ever anything but an underdog baby face who got beat on and then came back so be it. I don't see it though, and I hope I am wrong.

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I don't understand Rey's ranking. I never will understand Rey's ranking. Don't get me wrong he was a great pro-wrestler, but he played the same role in every match. I can buy him as the best baby face working from underneeth ever. I can't buy him as a top 10 guy. A top 15 guy. A top 20 guy? If I am overlooking something and he was ever anything but an underdog baby face who got beat on and then came back so be it. I don't see it though, and I hope I am wrong.

Doesn't matter how many threads on here I lurk, I'll never in my life understand how or why Rey's offense was better than HBK's or Bret's.

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Maybe I'm slightly ahead of the countdown in asking this, but I'm curious. On the podcast Kris and I did I talked about how it's my view that Stan Hansen was the greatest worker in the history of All Japan. I would guess that many people would argue for Jumbo, but I am interestedwhere people would rate the big All Japan names if we were looking SOLELY at their work in All Japan.

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Honestly, I'd still have Hansen ahead of Jumbo, though probably behind Misawa and Kawada. But then, I still like old man Hansen trying to hang onto his place in the world by thumping the ever loving dogshit out of folk more than the Pillars working King's Road (that's a broad, fairly simplistic take on things, but I'm on an iPhone at work), even if the latter produced more great matches.

 

I had Hansen ahead of all those guys, but things like Hansen/Andre and Hansen's stuff in America absolutely played a part in that.

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Maybe I'm slightly ahead of the countdown in asking this, but I'm curious. On the podcast Kris and I did I talked about how it's my view that Stan Hansen was the greatest worker in the history of All Japan. I would guess that many people would argue for Jumbo, but I am interestedwhere people would rate the big All Japan names if we were looking SOLELY at their work in All Japan.

To me it's Hansen, but at the same time, it's more of a consortium of great stuff without hitting the highs the others did. It's a HUGE amount of good stuff, though, and one where choosing between him and Jumbo is easy. Now Misawa on the other hand...I actually think he's second. Kawada third, Jumbo fourth.

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I don't understand Rey's ranking. I never will understand Rey's ranking. Don't get me wrong he was a great pro-wrestler, but he played the same role in every match. I can buy him as the best baby face working from underneeth ever. I can't buy him as a top 10 guy. A top 15 guy. A top 20 guy? If I am overlooking something and he was ever anything but an underdog baby face who got beat on and then came back so be it. I don't see it though, and I hope I am wrong.

 

a) He was unbelievably great at that one thing.

b.) There is no sane reason to have Rey playing any other wrestling role than underdog face.

c) He has displayed more variety than you'd think on the surface, even while largely playing one role.

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I had Rey at #3. Just a remarkably consistent guy, and someone you could slot in on TV with anyone for any length of time, and he'd give you a decent match. His offence to me always looked more effective than someone like Michaels because it worked with the fact Rey is such a tiny guy. Rey wasn't flipping for the sake of flipping, he was trying to build more momentum to ensure he was able to knock his opponent over or have enough velocity on a flying headscissors to make sure his opponent didn't just catch him. The 619 is much-derided, but he'd build up a lot of momentum before pivoting between the ropes to slam his feet into his opponents face, so to me it always looked painful. AND he could be an effective heel - unmasked dungarees-wearing Filthy Animal Rey was still a decent wrestler, but man I wanted to see that irritating runt get his comeuppence.

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The Tiger Mask II period is the weakest run of any significance that any of the 4 pillars had in All Japan. When you look at opportunities vs output, that phase of Misawa's career is shit in comparison with what Kobashi, Taue and even Kawada were able to do with fewer and weaker chances to perform in their early days. Kobashi & Taue were killing it within their first 2-3 years. Kawada was killing it once he got some of the spotlight.

 

Hansen had 15 years of awesome performances in All Japan.

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Rey and Painful don't belong in the same sentence when it comes to offense. His looked like choreographed sillyness with zero exception. His punches were the worst of anyone listed in the top 300. But he's Rey so Rey has to be high up on the list because reasons.

 

Rey's placement may be the single biggest legitimacy-buster of this entire thing, the more I think about it.

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Maybe I'm slightly ahead of the countdown in asking this, but I'm curious. On the podcast Kris and I did I talked about how it's my view that Stan Hansen was the greatest worker in the history of All Japan. I would guess that many people would argue for Jumbo, but I am interestedwhere people would rate the big All Japan names if we were looking SOLELY at their work in All Japan.

 

I'd agree with Hansen #1 for sure. I think Hansen was in the best match in All Japan history (the Kobashi match) and his very best tag matches are matches that resonate with me more than the 90s 4corners tag matches. He beats them all for longevity and was as good as any of them at his peak.

 

Ranking the big All Japan names strictly on their work in All Japan is an interesting idea and I think Terry Funk is actually a good candidate for #2.

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Rey and Painful don't belong in the same sentence when it comes to offense. His looked like choreographed sillyness with zero exception. His punches were the worst of anyone listed in the top 300. But he's Rey so Rey has to be high up on the list because reasons.

 

Rey's placement may be the single biggest legitimacy-buster of this entire thing, the more I think about it.

 

What exactly are you proposing is the reason he ranked so highly? I'd like to think we're above this kind of bad-faith reasoning here.

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And what about the 619 ? It is painfull.

It's painfully awful...

 

Anyway I'm guessing Bryan, Funk, Hansen, Misawa, Flair in that order. Solid top 5.

 

Rey and Painful don't belong in the same sentence when it comes to offense. His looked like choreographed sillyness with zero exception. His punches were the worst of anyone listed in the top 300. But he's Rey so Rey has to be high up on the list because reasons.

 

Rey's placement may be the single biggest legitimacy-buster of this entire thing, the more I think about it.

 

What exactly are you proposing is the reason he ranked so highly? I'd like to think we're above this kind of bad-faith reasoning here.

 

Nice guy, fun matches, never a threat.

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I don't understand Rey's ranking. I never will understand Rey's ranking. Don't get me wrong he was a great pro-wrestler, but he played the same role in every match. I can buy him as the best baby face working from underneeth ever. I can't buy him as a top 10 guy. A top 15 guy. A top 20 guy? If I am overlooking something and he was ever anything but an underdog baby face who got beat on and then came back so be it. I don't see it though, and I hope I am wrong.

 

Doesn't matter how many threads on here I lurk, I'll never in my life understand how or why Rey's offense was better than HBK's or Bret's.

Shawn was an undersized babyface who had offence that was often shown to be at parity with his bigger opponents when it came to power. There are ways of doing that properly, but Shawn didn't.

 

Rey was someone who used his size, which should have been a detriment in Vince's company, and turned it into a massive advantage. Every aspect of his offence emphasized his quickness and agility. He didn't engage in a punch-out when he fought Kane.

 

I also do not see how Rey's offence did not look legit. Neither do I see why his punches being bad matters, since his punches were never a significant part of his arsenal.

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