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The Greatest Wrestler Ever Project: Postscript

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57 minutes ago, ohtani's jacket said:

What's the word on this Andre/Terry Rudge match?

We'll do it next week for NFF. Will loop you in.

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3 hours ago, Matt D said:

That was my just-in-case Reigns cut off. I’m tempted to not include anyone who has ever worked a five minute WWE finisher spam “good parts only” main event title match out of spite though. We’ll see how I feel in five years. 

Don't think Sasha has ever done that. Strange as it might sound, I would like to see your thoughts on the Sasha-Bayley HitC and the recent Sasha-Carmella matches. Especially in terms of analysing Sasha's performance in terms of EPIC WWE MAIN EVENT style and in terms of carrying a lesser opponent to a good-to-great match while still adhering to the trappings of WWE main event playbook. 

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5 hours ago, MoS said:

Don't think Sasha has ever done that. Strange as it might sound, I would like to see your thoughts on the Sasha-Bayley HitC and the recent Sasha-Carmella matches. Especially in terms of analysing Sasha's performance in terms of EPIC WWE MAIN EVENT style and in terms of carrying a lesser opponent to a good-to-great match while still adhering to the trappings of WWE main event playbook. 

Might be disqualifying to Roman though.

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Double post. Anyway, I forgot how fun GWE was.

I also saw the Toyota vs Inoue hour match for the first time recently as I was given it as part of a secret santo and was shocked that I was pretty ok with it. Not that Toyota's making my list or anything...

Spoiler

 

 So, this is funny.

I'm almost afraid to type this.

I came into this expecting to hate this, or maybe just resent it a lot. No insult to Nick. It's not on him. This is a WON 5* match that won match of the year in the Observer. Guy has known me for a decade, but how much do any of us actually know each other? That's part of why we do projects like this, right?

It's a match I always avoided. I have a general sense of Toyota being as far from my sort of wrestler as possible (in that go-go-go super athletic Kurt Angle undervaluing selling vein). But we take our medicine here with this project, when given it.

My main knowledge of it are threads like this:

https://forums.prowrestlingonly.com/topic/14562-1995-05-07-ajw-gtop-manami-toyota-vs-kyoko-inoue/

When Loss and Ditch and JDW and Phil and Tim (Evans) are all against a match, that's sort of a broad range of voices, and all voices I listen to and respect, even if I'm not 100% with any of them. That said, keep in mind that those guys were all watching it in the context of a Yearbook Project, and they had even more reason to resent this match than I did.

So, maybe it's because I came in expecting to really dislike it, my expectations were low and I ended up liking it.

I thought, within the context of the style, it was fairly measured. There was a basic story/throughline of Inoue being able to take/control a lot of the match, but not being able to hit her big moves to put Toyota away and Toyota able to come back but not able to string together enough moves (usually because she had to escalate to hurt Inoue enough and then paid for it) to put Inoue away. She'd be able to control her with holds but not wear her enough down to hit the bombs. Inoue's back selling maybe needed a better bit of introduction but it was excellent throughout the match. They did a good job of keeping moves locked early and slowly introducing them throughout the match. A move would be teased and only utilized successfully fifteen minutes later. A lot of the offense that was hit clearly and cleanly was of a lower level even when it was hit multiple times in a row.

I was checking five minute intervals and there WERE times I wanted them to go home, though to their credit, I was ok with them not doing so until the 40 minute or even the 45 minute mark. I kept wondering "Well, is this the moment this is going to lose me?" and it never fully did. I was expecting them to drop everything, and maybe, maybe, if given her choice, Toyota would have dropped everything. That's the thing. I care about intent and I can't fully give her credit, given my understanding of her as a wrestler, because I think so much of what made this work in the stretch was her being unable to turn it up to a different gear. She was legitimately exhausted and thus she had to wrestle like she was exhausted and it meant the match never went off the rails.

There were issues (like Toyota having her back worked over early and never actually selling it), but the blown spots for instance, added to the match more than anything else to me. They read like exhaustion or overexertion to me. Look, I watched a death match for New Footage Friday last week, and I made the point that the blood and gore and weapons use are a rudimentary tool to help spurn the suspension of disbelief. Occasionally chaotic flubs, given the right setting, can do the same. I think that's been the case with a lot of Sasha Banks' matches in WWE, especially the gimmick ones. It makes it easier and not harder to be immersed in the moment because it somehow feels more "real". As an aside, Toyota's flexibility while in holds does the same. The ONE bit of selling-dropping by Inoue, when she hulked up towards the end, worked because it felt like very limited adrenaline in a way that so rarely does. It added instead of subtracting, and by the end, they both could barely move.

I realize I didn't watch this in context, but I imagine it's actually a better match OUT of context. The spots were novel to me. Toyota's speed was novel to me. I wasn't comparing it to other matches from 95. It's no Hennig vs Bock, but it's something to be appreciated and not reviled, I think. Yes, it's an amazing athletic accomplishment, but so much of it is way more measured than you'd expect. I think most of the credit for that is on Inoue and the decision for her to take so much of the match, but I'd have to see more matches with her to know for sure.

Mostly real time notes below:

Spoiler

Comparative advantage: Toyota flexibility/speed + balance. Selling screams through hair. Back focus. Two times she uses speed for hope spots. Distance is bad for inoue but she needs something more. Gets caught trying to springboard. Toyota drops back selling.——Explosive abandon and flexibility on offense. Death lock elbow drops and deep bridge.Inoue hope spots are strength. Love the build to the rolling cradle.——Top rope German is first big bomb. Transition ? Gets her to sell but goes for too much too soon. Gets kicked off ropes but dodged dive. Real transition. To outside.Can’t unlock string of moves though and takes bad risks.

First fight over moves. First time tiger enters, first attempt at Japanese Ocean Cyclone Suplex leads to a transition. Ocean Cyclone Suplex is teased at 20 minute mark and unlocked at 36. After failing multiple times to hit her bomb (mainly due to her hurt back), Inoue hits it at the 44 minute mark.

Inoue can't hit bombs so has to use holds to contain. Real sense that she needs to wear her down.

When Inoue goes to the lightning well, it doesn't work out for her, but Toyota can go to it too often which unlocks new moves for Inoue.

Inoue sells her back more than is maybe warranted. Toyota drops it too often. By the 20 minute mark, the cumulative damage is real though. Toyota can get one lightning quick move off but can't always follow up. Inoue follows up moves with holds. Toyota tries to follow bombs with bombs and it fails for her.

It's not until the 30 minute mark that Toyota can string moves together, and even then, it's just 2-3.

Memorable set pieces on the floor. Giant swing. Table that doesn't break. Pile drivers (33 min mark). Curious if the last will be a turning point.

If they went home around the 40 minute mark, this thing would be great. The JOC Suplex had been unlocked Inoue had teased her sub multiple times. The stage was set. Inoue winning at exactly the 40 minute mark after the missed moonsault press would have worked for me (though maybe Toyota needed just a tiny bit more first?).

More great visuals: Inoue scooping her up on the top for the power slam.

Both of them falling out of the ring at the 45 minute mark feels like a good and timely transition to the last part of the match. I could have lived with a double countout here (but again, a little more Toyota agency to cause it).

The JOC Suplex at 48 minute mark almost feels like another transition to something else. They both share a moment of exhaustion after before Inoue dumps Toyota out. I know they're building to a draw but we're 50 minutes in and it doesn't feel like they've gotten to a finishing stretch yet. The match is still building and escalating. Now we're in a mutual exhaustion phase instead of a "ignore everything and go full speed" phase.

Even as Toyota throws herself at Inoue repeatedly, it's the action of a desperate madwoman at the end of her rope. It doesn't feel like she's dropping anything. She's obvious exhausted and in agony from her body language, and it's probably just the real truth which provides constraints.

At the 53 minute mark, Inoue hulks up. It's a measured hulk up, full of adrenaline and excitement but still holding the back occasionally. Going for clotheslines instead of bombs. When she does, it fails the first time and she can only hit a jackknife instead of her bigger one for the second and then she's worn out.

Whether intentional or not, Toyota is physically diminished. She almost kills herself on a German off the ropes. She can't hold the bridge on the next one. She can't get Inoue off the ropes.

By the 58 minute mark, Toyota is just trying to throw herself at Inoue however she can. They're so explosive and dynamic and they're wrestling like people whose joints have locked up. True or not, it's impactful to watch.

Inoue makes a lot of tactical mistakes here including not going for her submission at various times. Rolling Toyota back in after the DDT off the apron (Which is really more like both of them falling, so it doesn't feel like escalation so much as a continued physical fizzling) instead of hoping for a countout, feels like a big one. Even though she hits her bomb afterwards, she's too exhausted to follow up in time.

The last image is Toyota trying a flipping power bomb off the top but barely able to move and both wrestlers getting hung up in the ropes as the bell rings.

The handholding at the end with both of them basically paralyzed is a great visual too.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, elliott said:

 

Hokuto & Bull are my 1 and 2 also. I have Devil Masami right there with them at #3.They're all in my top 15ish probably at this point with Chigusa, Jaguar & Matsumoto not far behind. 

#1 and #2 overall or just women, because I'm swaying towards overall.

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I can't quite get there because I struggle with the longevity aspect. If we're talking about peak and peak alone, then they are in the conversation for me no doubt. I went through a ton of JOshi on the GME forum you set up and came away thinking that Bull was the best wrestler in the world from 90-92 and was genuinely always good. Even when she was like 17 years old she was a good wrestler. At her peak as an ace, I'd argue not only that Bull was the best wrestler in the world, she was in competition with people like Michael Jordan and Snoop Doggy Dogg for coolest living human. But she was retired by 29. Effectively retired as a full time performer by 26 (while she was still at the top of her game). Hokuto was the same way. (Only with the awesome GAEA run as a bonus). 

Peak only, I think theyre really strong contenders for the top spot. But for an all encompassing list, I just can't rank them ahead of someone like Terry Funk or El Hijo del Santo when those guys combine the peak abilities and with decades of greatness. Hokuto was 35 in 2002 when she retired for good. Terry Funk turned 35 in 1979. I just can't get there. I can say for certain they're 2 of the best wrestlers I've ever seen and the only people I'd for sure rank above them are those Funk, Santo, Hansen types who were awesome for like 25 years. 

Have you watched much 80s AJW? I'd love to see more Yukari Ohmori. 

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1 hour ago, elliott said:

I can't quite get there because I struggle with the longevity aspect. If we're talking about peak and peak alone, then they are in the conversation for me no doubt. I went through a ton of JOshi on the GME forum you set up and came away thinking that Bull was the best wrestler in the world from 90-92 and was genuinely always good. Even when she was like 17 years old she was a good wrestler. At her peak as an ace, I'd argue not only that Bull was the best wrestler in the world, she was in competition with people like Michael Jordan and Snoop Doggy Dogg for coolest living human. But she was retired by 29. Effectively retired as a full time performer by 26 (while she was still at the top of her game). Hokuto was the same way. (Only with the awesome GAEA run as a bonus). 

Peak only, I think theyre really strong contenders for the top spot. But for an all encompassing list, I just can't rank them ahead of someone like Terry Funk or El Hijo del Santo when those guys combine the peak abilities and with decades of greatness. Hokuto was 35 in 2002 when she retired for good. Terry Funk turned 35 in 1979. I just can't get there. I can say for certain they're 2 of the best wrestlers I've ever seen and the only people I'd for sure rank above them are those Funk, Santo, Hansen types who were awesome for like 25 years. 

Have you watched much 80s AJW? I'd love to see more Yukari Ohmori. 

Longevity is something I understand, but it's a difficult thing to think about and I am not sure. It's something I really need to debate as we move along.

I started in the early 1980s and I am half way through 1991 for joshi.

Ohmori seemed awesome, and the list of people I want to see more of it SUPER HIGH!

I want to note I think Hokuto's run is longer than people think. In 87 she was FUCKING INSANELY GREAT! By 1988 she could be considered the best in the world. People talk about her like she was only great in 92-94, but that's not true at all.

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Being amazing for a long time > Being amazing at times + Being great for a long time > Having a short but amazing career > Being great at times + Being good for a long time > Having a short but great career > Having a short but good career > Being amazing at times + Being mostly bad > Being great at times + Being mostly bad > Being good at times + Being mostly bad > Being bad for a long time + Being good at times > Never being any good

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2 minutes ago, Loss said:

Being amazing for a long time > Being amazing at times + Being great for a long time > Having a short but amazing career > Being great at times + Being good for a long time > Having a short but great career > Having a short but good career > Being amazing at times + Being mostly bad > Being great at times + Being mostly bad > Being good at times + Being mostly bad > Being bad for a long time + Being good at times > Never being any good

Negro Casas it is!

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16 minutes ago, Loss said:

Being amazing for a long time > Being amazing at times + Being great for a long time > Having a short but amazing career > Being great at times + Being good for a long time > Having a short but great career > Having a short but good career > Being amazing at times + Being mostly bad > Being great at times + Being mostly bad > Being good at times + Being mostly bad > Being bad for a long time + Being good at times > Never being any good

I'll have to put that into a chart to see if I 100% agree.

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18 minutes ago, Loss said:

Being amazing for a long time > Being amazing at times + Being great for a long time > Having a short but amazing career > Being great at times + Being good for a long time > Having a short but great career > Having a short but good career > Being amazing at times + Being mostly bad > Being great at times + Being mostly bad > Being good at times + Being mostly bad > Being bad for a long time + Being good at times > Never being any good

 

Hahahaha! This was great! 

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1 hour ago, Grimmas said:

Longevity is something I understand, but it's a difficult thing to think about and I am not sure. It's something I really need to debate as we move along.

I started in the early 1980s and I am half way through 1991 for joshi.

Ohmori seemed awesome, and the list of people I want to see more of it SUPER HIGH!

I want to note I think Hokuto's run is longer than people think. In 87 she was FUCKING INSANELY GREAT! By 1988 she could be considered the best in the world. People talk about her like she was only great in 92-94, but that's not true at all.

 

I really loved Ohmori when I went through all of the original AJW CLassics. The match against Matsumoto was like a mind melting experience and I thought she had one of the 2 or 3 best Lioness matches I've seen. 

I agree about Hokuto to a degree. The earliest match she was in that I really liked was 1986. I think she was awesome right away, but I'd need to see more to put her in the best wrestler in the world category in 88 & 89. I think the talent is there, I just want to see more production. I've probably seen less than 15 matches from Hokuto in from 87-89. And those years have some mountains to climb to get to Best in the World consideration.  But please point me in the direction of stuff! I'm happy to watch more 80s Joshi

I've seen a ton of her from 1990 on and she's definitely insanely great by then. I can't call her the best in the world from 90-92 though because I think Bull is the clear best in the world those years. But "not being as good as 1990-92 Bull Nakano" is hardly an insult. Practically nobody has ever been that good. People talk about 92-95 Hokuto though because its her GOAT run. I think people that are familiar with her entire career realize she was a prodigy who was awesome right away and still really great when she retired. I've been reading old WON's and Hokuto (and Toyota) are talked about as being better than everyone else as early as 1991 and I have a feeling if I read the 1990 WONs the writing would be similar. There was lots of talk about her return to form in 2001. The issue was always that she took time off or worked partial schedules or people just weren't watching or there's not a ton of footage of her from the 80s (there might be now, thats why I'm asking for recommendations).

Anyway I'm just rambling because we agree on the main point. Hokuto was always awesome. 

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I completely agree with this. I went through the original AJW CLassics on Samurai run a couple of years ago and have some other commercial tapes from the 80s but theres more out there I haven't gotten yet. Just watching the Classics run though, I love 80s AJW and between the Dump spectacles clean matches involving Crush Gals, Angels, Jaguar, Devil, Ohmori, and those mid card women I think people wouldve been shocked at how good 80s Joshi was. 

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What's some must-see 1988 Hokuto? I liked her March 1989 match against Chigusa Nagayo quite a bit, so it comes as no surprise that she would be delivering the goods before then.

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Here is my list of insanely great Hokuto matches in order (up to my current watch): 

vs Bull (91-1-4)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Yumiko Hotta & Mitsuko Nishiwaki (90-5-13)

vs Manami Toyota (90-8-19)

vs Manami Toyota (91-1-11)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Kyoko Inoue & Manami Toyota (90-11-14)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Crush Gals (89-4-27)

vs Suzuka Minami (91-4-29)

Here is the thing with Hokuto too, it's not all about great matches. Put on ANY SINGLE Hokuto match and she's stand out great in it. The match can be fine or amazing, doesn't matter, she's fucking great in it.

I don't want to rehash great match theory again, already, but fuck great match theory.

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17 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

What's some must-see 1988 Hokuto? I liked her March 1989 match against Chigusa Nagayo quite a bit, so it comes as no surprise that she would be delivering the goods before then.

Any match she is in she RULES. Literally watch any one.

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25 minutes ago, elliott said:

I completely agree with this. I went through the original AJW CLassics on Samurai run a couple of years ago and have some other commercial tapes from the 80s but theres more out there I haven't gotten yet. Just watching the Classics run though, I love 80s AJW and between the Dump spectacles clean matches involving Crush Gals, Angels, Jaguar, Devil, Ohmori, and those mid card women I think people wouldve been shocked at how good 80s Joshi was. 

THIS! It would had ruled and been way more varied then people think. Probably would had been the best set altogether.

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10 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

Here is my list of insanely great Hokuto matches in order (up to my current watch): 

vs Bull (91-1-4)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Yumiko Hotta & Mitsuko Nishiwaki (90-5-13)

vs Manami Toyota (90-8-19)

vs Manami Toyota (91-1-11)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Kyoko Inoue & Manami Toyota (90-11-14)

w/ Suzuka Minami vs Crush Gals (89-4-27)

vs Suzuka Minami (91-4-29)

Here is the thing with Hokuto too, it's not all about great matches. Put on ANY SINGLE Hokuto match and she's stand out great in it. The match can be fine or amazing, doesn't matter, she's fucking great in it.

I don't want to rehash great match theory again, already, but fuck great match theory.

 

Oooh, maybe I can recommend you some matches!? I have these additional matches noted as recommendation worthy 80s Hokuto. Definitely worth checking out! 

w/ Yukari Ohmori vs Chigusa & Hotta 10/10/86

w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Glamour Girls 4/15/87

w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Yumi Ogura & Kazue Nagahori 4/27/87

vs Chigusa 3/19/89

w/ Minami vs Bison Kimura & Grizzly Iwamoto 6/18/89 (My quick note says this is like Doom vs The Rockers 2/3 Falls No DQ for 30 minutes and I specifically note Hokuto's performance, I gotta rewatch that hahaha!)

I actually only have Kandori vs Masami JWP as a recommended 1988 Joshi match. So I'd like to see anything from that year honestly! 

I agree with the point about her being great and always standing out even in average matches. Thats why I welcome recommendations. There are certain wrestlers where I wanna watch everything they ever did no matter the length, setting or even quality of the match. Like I'll watch a 3 minute Terry Funk match from 2000 WCW or a 25minute Geriatric Satanico match because I wanna see it all. Hokuto is on that list. If theres a match she had, I wanna see it whether its a rookie year match or a 3 minute 1997 Nitro match. 

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3 minutes ago, elliott said:

 

Oooh, maybe I can recommend you some matches!? I have these additional matches noted as recommendation worthy 80s Hokuto. Definitely worth checking out! 

w/ Yukari Ohmori vs Chigusa & Hotta 10/10/86

w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Glamour Girls 4/15/87

w/ Yumiko Hotta vs Yumi Ogura & Kazue Nagahori 4/27/87

vs Chigusa 3/19/89

w/ Minami vs Bison Kimura & Grizzly Iwamoto 6/18/89 (My quick note says this is like Doom vs The Rockers 2/3 Falls No DQ for 30 minutes and I specifically note Hokuto's performance, I gotta rewatch that hahaha!)

I actually only have Kandori vs Masami JWP as a recommended 1988 Joshi match. So I'd like to see anything from that year honestly! 

I agree with the point about her being great and always standing out even in average matches. Thats why I welcome recommendations. There are certain wrestlers where I wanna watch everything they ever did no matter the length, setting or even quality of the match. Like I'll watch a 3 minute Terry Funk match from 2000 WCW or a 25minute Geriatric Satanico match because I wanna see it all. Hokuto is on that list. If theres a match she had, I wanna see it whether its a rookie year match or a 3 minute 1997 Nitro match. 

My issue is, as always, I only put things on a list if it's great, so matches that are just good I can often not remember if I've seen them or not. I will watch EVERY SINGLE Hokuto match I can, so thanks for the list and I will either watch those or start to watch them only to realize I saw them once before ;)

Like you said, any match from Hokuto that is available is worth watching!

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25 minutes ago, Grimmas said:

THIS! It would had ruled and been way more varied then people think. Probably would had been the best set altogether.

 

I honestly think it would have been the best set. When I watched the AJW Classics stuff I organized everything and watched it all in chronological order and just pretended it was the DVDVR 80s set and it was so satisfying. THere'd be these crazy awesome workrate tag matches then an insane Dump Matsumoto brawl and then heres Lioness & Chigusa doing like UWF style on fast forward. 80s AJW was just the best. 

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How do people rank Jackie Sato among the joshi girls?  I ask because by some happy accident I come across her vs Chabela Romero (?) in a great bloodbath match recently. Having not paid any attention to her I was pretty blown away by Sato. She looked like a beast.

If I was to make a list today I would certainly consider Roman Reigns for a spot. He's had too many great big time matches to ignore at this point and the heel run so far has only solidified him. He should be a shoe-in in five years. Sasha Banks I have thought about. She isn't there yet but I definitely think she has the best case of the WWE women. A lot of it hinges on WWE's hot-and-cold booking unfortunately - there's always the danger once she drops the belt that she sinks back into nothingness again.

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I'll take part of the responsibility for the '80s Joshi set breaking down. I found the footage amazing to watch in bursts but difficult to plow through week after week. I'm not sure why; perhaps I'd feel differently now. But I can attest to everything Steven is saying about Hokuto; her work jumped out almost as soon as she appeared on tape. It's still a shortish run for an all-time great, but it's not like you're left with a lot of questions about what she could do. 

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On 2/18/2021 at 1:02 AM, Matt D said:

Kind of, sort of? Like, that's half the battle. The other half would be how Hennig then translated that into his in-ring work. You could argue that all of the big bumping and stooging for guys like Tornado or Warrior in 90 was a sign that he wasn't actually the guy throwing the football and he got heat that way. "If he was Perfect, why would he be flipping around the ring when he got clotheslined," etc. But that feels a little like a stretch to me. You could make the argument, but it's not an incredibly compelling argument to me. I think he could lean into that more, and I think he did so, a little bit in his 00s WWE run when they played up that he was a fraud or washed up a bit more and that carried through a bit more in his ringwork since he was lower on the card and losing a lot more?

Miz isn't necessarily a guy I'd push for this, but there were periods where he was cutting promos about how he was a star and then going way out of his way to avoid punches since he was afraid of losing his moneymaker and that became a narrative device within his matches. That'd be a bit more of what we're talking about here.

The poster boy for this argument would be someone like Sean O'Haire, who had those promos that people loved, but couldn't convey that into his in-ring stuff and was just another big guy. If I vote for someone like Dusty Rhodes, then his charisma will be a big part of it, not due to promos but because of how much personality he showed in the ring. Similar to a Negro Casas, it's a universal type of charisma.

I'm personally very excited by the prospect of GWE 2026. A combination of no crowds and the Speaking Out movement showing that I'd been cheering for a bunch of scumbags has really done a number on my wrestling watching in the past 6 months, so the idea of having a project to get me back in excites me. My 2016 list didn't feature any women, I just didn't get round to joshi and I didn't think any US workers deserved a place, which is a big oversight that I'm looking forward to rectifying, and I want to give WoS a bigger look. Suspect I'll still be the high voter on Jeff Jarrett and Tom Zenk in 2026 though.

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