Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 4

[Dav'oh]

How did Tanahashi's "My Dad is a Heel Pro-Wrestler" go at the box-office?

Also, are the Tiger Mask comics still a going concern (I know Ibushi played some updated version of it)? If so, would Sayama be more relevant than Rikidozan - not relevant in general, just "more relevant" than Riki - to modern Japanese culture?

[Migs]

IW.TV dropped a ton of 2001 Jersey All pro and now I'm up too late watching shows and reading old DVDVR road reports.

[WingedEagle]

Any interesting Black Friday deals out there in the wrestling world?

[C.S.]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:01 AM, ohtani's jacket said:

there was a movie made about Rikidozan

19 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

How did Tanahashi's "My Dad is a Heel Pro-Wrestler" go at the box-office? 

Are either of these easily accessible on U.S. streaming service or available on a U.S. or region-free DVD/Blu-ray with English subtitles?

 

[War is Raw]

(Just want to add that Japan has a notoriously poor box office in general. Godzilla kept it alive in the 20th century, due to kids demanding to see him. Japanese would rather see anime, K-drama, or American blockbusters than a historical figure wrestling movie. Riki bombing isn't evidence by itself.) But yes, Jackie Robinson is taught in schools, had a successful movie, and is name-dropped by MLB. BTW, he has a 85% U.S. recognizability rating. Hulk Hogan had 93% of 1652 Americans recognize him. Riki is not seen this way in 2020 Japan. The 1960s? Yes.

Dave always had a fetish about Inoki in Japan, Colon in Puerto Rico, the Von Erichs in Dallas, The Funks in Amarillo, Lawler in Memphis, Flair in Charlotte ("he could run for mayor" etc. Small sample with me, I concede, but when I went to those places, I asked a banker, driver, hotel worker, etc if they heard of those wrestlers who Dave pitches as "icons" in the region. I NEVER got a hit. Nor did I get a hit for Bruno Sammartino anywhere but NY. I never even got a hit for former Yankees pitcher Chien-Ming Wang in Taiwan, although the commentators said in 2008 he was worshipped there and allegedly a statue was built for him. I did get hits for baseball player Ichiro in Japan. In 2016 random people in Edmonton knew who Bret Hart was, and one even added, "And Chris Jericho". Didn't feel comfortable chit-chatting about Benoit.

And you can forget about the joshi scene in Japan. It basically lost an entire generation (or two) of fans, and is still in the dark ages.

That said, I agree with Dave that one time (I believe it was the 2019 G-1) when he said pro wrestling is a non-mainstream niche in Japan at the moment. Never lose sight of that, because it is true for wrestling as a whole.

Now...any Mexicans want to smarten us up and prove Dave wrong by saying no one knows who El Santo is, and how lucha libre is a subculture, and not a cultural institution which draws better than WWE relative to its pop?

[sek69]

1 hour ago, War is Raw said:

Dave always had a fetish about Inoki in Japan, Colon in Puerto Rico, the Von Erichs in Dallas, The Funks in Amarillo, Lawler in Memphis, Flair in Charlotte ("he could run for mayor" etc.

Funny thing, Lawler did run for mayor in Memphis, and I believe he only got like 11% of the vote. 

[Migs]

8 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

Any interesting Black Friday deals out there in the wrestling world?

I am knee deep in merch posts on Instagram - what kind of stuff are you looking for? I've seen everything from individual wrestlers doing merch store sales to Japanese tribute stuff to crazy vintage ECW bootlegs.

[WingedEagle]

16 hours ago, Migs said:

I am knee deep in merch posts on Instagram - what kind of stuff are you looking for? I've seen everything from individual wrestlers doing merch store sales to Japanese tribute stuff to crazy vintage ECW bootlegs.

Ha of course I am not on Instagram so have no clue what I'm missing there.  Always more interested in things from Japan since its harder to come by/more expensive, but didn't have anything particular in mind.

[Cobra Commander]

23 hours ago, sek69 said:

Funny thing, Lawler did run for mayor in Memphis, and I believe he only got like 11% of the vote. 

The first time (1999), he won 12%, got over 19000 votes, and finished 3rd. Which really isn't an awful showing for somebody making their first run without really much established political power behind them. Lawler received more votes than 3 candidates who had held elective office and he only finished behind the incumbent Mayor and a member of the city's most prominent political family (The Ford family, which used their Funeral home business to build social ties that got lots and lots of family members into office, including two Congressmen, Harold Ford Sr and Harold Ford Jr).

Memphis Mayoral elections don't have a majority requirement so it wouldn't have been impossible to win with much less than 50% but voters coalesce into the top camps of either liking the incumbent or wanting him out, or liking the Fords or not being too high on them. I forget if Lawler put it in his book or just said it in print, but they were thinking he would do better in some heavily Black precincts based off of wrestling fandom, which isn't exactly how these things go with how racially polarized voting can be in the South.

Now, Lawler's second mayoral candidacy in 2009, on the other hand, wasn't near as popular. That time he won 4%, which was worth 4049 votes and finished 5th. That election was a bit of a blowout as the incumbent County Mayor (County Executive, the same job Kane has in Knoxville) ran for Mayor of Memphis and won with nearly 60%. So the second place finisher was closer to Lawler than to first place.

Although if one wants to be generous to Lawler's 2009 showing... 4049 would have a great attendance for any Mid-South show after the late 1980s. Running in 1999, with the Ventura win still fresh and wrestling being hot, made some sense. Running in 2009, didn't really make much sense.

[Migs]

2 hours ago, WingedEagle said:

Ha of course I am not on Instagram so have no clue what I'm missing there.  Always more interested in things from Japan since its harder to come by/more expensive, but didn't have anything particular in mind.

A couple of stores with very cool Japanese wrestling stuff:

https://stash-pages.myshopify.com

https://violentmiracle.com (I think their current sale ended)

https://www.supernovacancymerch.com (don't think they have a sale today but very reasonable prices)

[WingedEagle]

1 hour ago, Migs said:

A couple of stores with very cool Japanese wrestling stuff:

https://stash-pages.myshopify.com

https://violentmiracle.com (I think their current sale ended)

https://www.supernovacancymerch.com (don't think they have a sale today but very reasonable prices)

Thanks!  Will def check these out.

[NintendoLogic]

Holy shit.

 

[cm funk]

Just read that and came to here to post it!  holy shit indeed

I know Rave wasn't the most popular amongst the IWC back in the day, not enough "workrate" for the tastes of the day, a lot of "why are they pushing him and not so and so" but I always enjoyed him quite a bit as a heel in ROH

[rovert]

18 minutes ago, cm funk said:

Just read that and came to here to post it!  holy shit indeed

I know Rave wasn't the most popular amongst the IWC back in the day, not enough "workrate" for the tastes of the day, a lot of "why are they pushing him and not so and so" but I always enjoyed him quite a bit as a heel in ROH

His Art Of Wrestling episode 2011 or so time was a lot. Was a drug addict and then a drug counsellor on a positive path. But then VERY sadly in recent years relapsed again. And has been known for contacting fans to send him money in various forms in seemingly desperate circumstances.

Addiction is cruel and America has a profound opioid crisis.

I am waiting for more/third party info on his current situation personally but he's a clear victim no matter what. An extremely well-liked person between fans and wrestlers of every generation he has existed in. Deserves a lot better.

[cm funk]

God, I really hope that losing half of his arm wasn't needle related...

[Edwin]

On 11/27/2020 at 5:11 PM, War is Raw said:

Dave always had a fetish about... Colon in Puerto Rico...

This one I can speak up for.

Up until the 2000s, Carlos was a household name in Puerto Rico. WWC was the highest rated show on local TV and they of course could sell out stadiums on a regular basis. 9 out of 10 Puerto Ricans could have told you who Carlos was (Chicky Starr, Ray Gonzalez, Invader #1 and Savio Vega at certain times were also somewhat household names). Now, no. Carlos has mostly been working in the office and has been away from TV on a regular basis. Also Puerto Rican wrestling has been on a decline popularity wise since Victor Quiñones passed away and IWA's decline began.

I was actually listening to Chicky speak in an interview and he said had Carlos run to be a mayor in the 80s or 90s, he would have won easily as he was a massive beloved local baby face and they would have voted him.

I know Savio has already said he's running for mayor of Vega Baja.

[Edwin]

Listening to an interview with Savio Vega.

His inspiration to be a wrestler was Titanes del Ring. He began training and then began working as security for CSP thanks to family members who also worked as security for CSP. At the time he was also working smaller indy shows until Isaac Rosario saw him working an anniversary show they had for him and recommended him to Carlos Colón.

He worked a number of gimmicks in CSP, Juan Rivera, El Corsario, El Asesino, etc. His first night in CSP was a Wednesday TV taping. He wrestled 3 opponents, including Sabukán and one of the Súper Médicos.

He received an offer to do a tour of Tennessee, but it feel through and he ended up doing a tour of Louisiana where he worked in Mid-South. He also mentioned he did a tour of Mexico with José Huertas González. They were Los Corsarios.

After those tours, he returned to Puerto Rico and he debuted the TNT gimmick. On his first night back, he had three matches at a Wednesday TV taping and he mentioned wrestling one of the Hart brothers in one of the three matches.

He received his first offer for a tour of Japan thanks to Abdullah the Butcher. It was a tour with All Japan.

He talked about his feud and working with the Canadian Jason the Terrible, Karl Moffatt. He said their matches were brutal and Moffatt liked working stiff. He recalls Moffatt knocking him out in one of their matches in Caguas with a diving headbutt. He said he kicked out by instinct. When he recovered, he stiffed Moffatt with body kicks and Moffatt was screaming at him to tone it down. He also said he had a scar in forehead from a headbutt he received with the Jason hockey mask which he says had a sharp edge.

Scott Hall was the person who recommended him to Vince McMahon. He said he still has a relationship with Steve Austin and they talk on the phone often. He said Austin called him around the anniversary for their strap match as he credits as a key match in the development of his career on his way to becoming Stone Cold.

Victor Quiñones was the agent for Kane, Big Show, the Mexican and Japanese wrestlers of the Attitude Era. He claims Big Show's deal was for $10M.

Súper Astros was a project Quiñones was involved in. The goal was for Súper Astros to be a brand of itself. Their show was original for 30 minutes and they had plans to expand it to an hour, but someone had an issue arise with Linda McMahon and Vince decided to drop the entire plan.

Regardless, Quiñones was still working on founding IWA in Puerto Rico. Obviously IWA was heavily influenced by W★ING. Savio says Jim Ross told him creative didn't have anything for him and when Savio approached the Undertaker to say goodbye, Taker told him he would get him a 2 year extension, but Savio turned down the offer from Taker as he was already working with Quiñones, Miguel Pérez Jr. and Victor Rodríguez founding IWA.

[ohtani's jacket]

On 11/27/2020 at 3:40 AM, joeg said:

Thanks OJ. Thats why I love this board, I'm always learning. I knew the Rikidozan movie didn't do well at the box office but I just assumed that's because it was poorly reviewed and not very good. Its interesting because I always thought Rikidozan and Kimura were the cultural equivalent of Jessie Owens, Babe Didrickson, Jackie Robinson, Lou Gerhig, Joe Louis, or Muhammed Ali in the states. Athletes who are still house hold names over a half century later because of their contribution not just to their sport but to American society as a whole. Which Japanese professional athletes are on that level of cultural and historical signifigance?  

I don't think Japan has ever had a sports person on the level of Muhammed Ali or Jackie Robinson, etc. There have been famous baseball players and soccer players, Olympians, sumo wrestlers and judokas, but I can't think of anyone as significant as the athletes you named. Historically, sport in Japan was tied to religion and the military, which meant upholding the traditions of the past. The modern influence of sports like baseball came during the post-war rebuild and was mostly related to economic growth. There have been instances of Japanese athletes proving themselves on the world stage, and moments of national pride, but nothing that brought about a change in society. To be honest, I don't think Japan is political enough for athletes to wield that sort of influence. 

[Mad Dog]

I doubt it means much but pro wrestling doesn't have a lot of manga based on it past Kinnikuman (MUSCLE) and Tiger Mask. There's more manga out there devoted to volleyball than there is to wrestling.

[joeg]

6 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I don't think Japan has ever had a sports person on the level of Muhammed Ali or Jackie Robinson, etc. There have been famous baseball players and soccer players, Olympians, sumo wrestlers and judokas, but I can't think of anyone as significant as the athletes you named. Historically, sport in Japan was tied to religion and the military, which meant upholding the traditions of the past. The modern influence of sports like baseball came during the post-war rebuild and was mostly related to economic growth. There have been instances of Japanese athletes proving themselves on the world stage, and moments of national pride, but nothing that brought about a change in society. To be honest, I don't think Japan is political enough for athletes to wield that sort of influence. 

That's fascinating. To find out not only that Rikidozan and Kimura weren't that historically significant but also that Japan doesn't really have any historical cultural icons in sports is sort of fascinating from an American prospective.  One more question. If there isn't aren't any sporting figures mentioned in history books in Japan are there any sporting events deemed that important? Something equal to lets say Yankees vs Senators July 4th 1939? A sporting event that literally every American at some point has seen clips, seen pictures of, or heard a recording of, even if they don't know the context.  

[ohtani's jacket]

I can't say for certain about history books. I would imagine Japanese people learn about the 1964 Olympics or perhaps the history of Koshien, the famous high school baseball tournament. I read recently that in 1896, a Japanese high school baseball team defeated a team of resident foreigners in Yokohama and were hailed as national heroes by the press. Apparently, their victory gave rise to the popularity of baseball in schools. Whether that's taught to Japanese high school baseball players, I have no idea. I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have any famous sports people, or that Rikidozan wasn't important in his time, but the stuff that Dave says about Rikidozan is crazy. When he named Rikidozan the most important wrestler of the 20th century in 2000, he wrote: "Even to this day, nearly 40 years after his death, his name is known by everyone in Japan. His grave site in Tokyo is practically a national monument where wrestlers go to get their photos taken." Really, Dave? I don't know who was feeding him that shit. Maybe it was different 20 years ago when more people remembered him. As far as I am aware, people are more familiar with Inoki and Baba than they are Rikidozan. That's largely because they were around for so long, but also because Inoki tried so hard to make himself seem like an important social icon. 

[NintendoLogic]

Dave seems to be going largely off a 2007 NTV survey that asked the Japanese public to name the 100 most influential historical figures in history. Rikidozan came in 18th. It's like how one of his Japanese contacts in the 80s told him that Takeshi Kitano was the Johnny Carson of Japan and that's the analogy he's used ever since.

[MoS]

3 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

I can't say for certain about history books. I would imagine Japanese people learn about the 1964 Olympics or perhaps the history of Koshien, the famous high school baseball tournament. I read recently that in 1896, a Japanese high school baseball team defeated a team of resident foreigners in Yokohama and were hailed as national heroes by the press. Apparently, their victory gave rise to the popularity of baseball in schools. Whether that's taught to Japanese high school baseball players, I have no idea. I'm not saying that Japan doesn't have any famous sports people, or that Rikidozan wasn't important in his time, but the stuff that Dave says about Rikidozan is crazy. When he named Rikidozan the most important wrestler of the 20th century in 2000, he wrote: "Even to this day, nearly 40 years after his death, his name is known by everyone in Japan. His grave site in Tokyo is practically a national monument where wrestlers go to get their photos taken." Really, Dave? I don't know who was feeding him that shit. Maybe it was different 20 years ago when more people remembered him. As far as I am aware, people are more familiar with Inoki and Baba than they are Rikidozan. That's largely because they were around for so long, but also because Inoki tried so hard to make himself seem like an important social icon. 

Would you say Hase is more known than Rikidozan in the present day, given Hase actually served as a government minister in relatively recent times?

Also, this is apropos of nothing - and I know cricket is just a nerd sport for most - but I know you are from New Zealand, and the Kiwi fan and cricket fan in me wants to say that I hope Brendan McCullum and Kane Williamson are celebrated like national heroes in New Zealand, cuz they damn well deserve that. Oooh and Dan Vettori too.

[ohtani's jacket]

It's possible. I don't really discuss politics with a lot of people. The last I heard Hase was being accused of sexual harrassment.

Those cricketers are popular in New Zealand, but our national heroes tend to be rugby players. 

[Robert S]

The whole concept of sports people being part of history books seems strange me. For one in school, about 3/4 of the time is spent on pre-1900 stuff, ergo (ignoring ancient Olympic games and stuff like chariot races and gladiator battles) there were no sports to talk about and when talking about the 20th century, there is so much stuff to talk about that I cannot see wasting a minute talking about any sports person, at least from a European perspective. Some teachers might mention Berlin 1936 or maybe even Moscow 1980, and when going over the terrorism of the 1970ies and 80ies, Munich 1972 might be mentioned as well (though I suppose in Germany and Austria, where is might be most topical, the RAF and the political unrests of the late 1960ies are much more important regarding that topic), but that is definitely not essential knowledge or stuff essential for understanding history (Berlin 1936 might work as a good example of the Nazi propaganda machine, so suppose that's the closest you get).