Sasha vs. Charlotte: right now

[goc]

The point seems to come up more with the women than with the men, and there are way more male wrestlers on the roster. Nobody's talking about who puts together the Revival matches, and there aren't comments about Arn Anderson's match layouts in weekly WWE TV discussions. I don't think we have enough information about these inner workings across-the-board to judge them for a particular pair of wrestlers.

Pretty much the only time I ever see it come up is when someone tries to discredit John Cena (who probably calls as much or more in the ring than anyone in WWE) by saying all his matches are laid out by Arn Anderson anyway so he's really not all that great.

[Matt D]

It's a little funny in this specific situation because if there was anything wrong with the match, it was the layout. The actual performances, commitment to character, intensity... all of the things that feel like "performance elements" separated from practice-able ones or agent-lay-out or whatever, is what was we have pretty direct evidence of being strong.

[cpst]

Pretty much the only time I ever see it come up is when someone tries to discredit John Cena (who probably calls as much or more in the ring than anyone in WWE) by saying all his matches are laid out by Arn Anderson anyway so he's really not all that great.

The other big instance I can think of is Michael Hayes being behind the trend of spotfest TLC matches, although half of that seems to be wrestlers making fun of him for suggesting that they take bumps that Hayes would never take himself.

[Jimmy Redman]

It's funny the casual sexism that comes with that whole "laid out matches" talking point.

 

When Cesaro, Sami and Neville were having great matches in NXT, nobody sat there saying "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these guys aren't that great."

When Revival, Alpha and DIY are having great matches in NXT, nobody sits here saying "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these guys aren't that great."

 

But when a bunch of women are having great matches in NXT, people are suddenly having to come up with reasons, explanations as to why this can possibly be so, and we end up with "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these girls aren't that great. Try having a great match on Raw with 90 seconds to work with no motivation or booking help, then we'll see who the worker is!"

 

Sami Zayn has largely done shit on the main roster, because he hasn't been given a chance to do anything more, and yet nobody (except a few idiots) are saying that the main roster has "exposed him" as a bad worker. But when a girl can't work miracles in the same kind of death spot, with the same kind of 'main roster vs NXT' problems that everyone has to deal with, it's magically proof that they were never any good at all and all the credit goes to whoever was laying out their matches in NXT. Like, no shit their matches on Raw aren't as good as their matches on NXT. Fucking EVERYTHING is better in NXT!

[WingedEagle]

 

The point seems to come up more with the women than with the men, and there are way more male wrestlers on the roster. Nobody's talking about who puts together the Revival matches, and there aren't comments about Arn Anderson's match layouts in weekly WWE TV discussions. I don't think we have enough information about these inner workings across-the-board to judge them for a particular pair of wrestlers.

Pretty much the only time I ever see it come up is when someone tries to discredit John Cena (who probably calls as much or more in the ring than anyone in WWE) by saying all his matches are laid out by Arn Anderson anyway so he's really not all that great.

 

 

In the interest of fairness, do you think the women's NXT matches were criticized on that basis as they were happening? If so, that's some bullshit. My recollection was this became a talking point when they were called up and the matches on Raw & PPV didn't meet the high expectations set in NXT. If the latter is the case, hopefully that's leveled against all NXT call-ups where applicable.

 

On the other hand, I find it silly to consider whether the match is intricately laid out, practiced once or a dozen times beforehand or called on the fly. I care about what happens on the show I'm watching. How they get there before the curtain goes up just isn't important.

[Tim Evans]

Charlotte has improved a lot on the main roster and is really one of the only true heels in the company. I was one of the biggest Sasha fans around last year when she was finishing up in NXT as she had her character down and was still having good matches. Her babyface run so far has been weak but she is still bringing it in the ring. If I had to choose right now, I'm still picking Sasha. Charlotte's promos are awful and I've still yet to see her have a really great match without Sasha. Sasha's bumps are hard to watch sometimes but I think that's the only way she knows how to work. I remember going to NXT house shows and she was taking crazy bumps vs Bayley and the others. Wish they would turn her heel and maybe they will when Bayley wins at Mania.

[GOTNW]

It's funny the casual sexism that comes with that whole "laid out matches" talking point.

 

When Cesaro, Sami and Neville were having great matches in NXT, nobody sat there saying "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these guys aren't that great."

 

When Revival, Alpha and DIY are having great matches in NXT, nobody sits here saying "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these guys aren't that great."

 

But when a bunch of women are having great matches in NXT, people are suddenly having to come up with reasons, explanations as to why this can possibly be so, and we end up with "Well they get to sleep in their own beds and they're all planned out in advance anyway, these girls aren't that great. Try having a great match on Raw with 90 seconds to work with no motivation or booking help, then we'll see who the worker is!"

 

Sami Zayn has largely done shit on the main roster, because he hasn't been given a chance to do anything more, and yet nobody (except a few idiots) are saying that the main roster has "exposed him" as a bad worker. But when a girl can't work miracles in the same kind of death spot, with the same kind of 'main roster vs NXT' problems that everyone has to deal with, it's magically proof that they were never any good at all and all the credit goes to whoever was laying out their matches in NXT. Like, no shit their matches on Raw aren't as good as their matches on NXT. Fucking EVERYTHING is better in NXT!

Why does having opinions equate to sexism? Cesaro hasn't done anything good in forever either. He's just another formulaic wrestler now. Zayn stopped being good when he came back, outside of the Nakamura match his last NXT run didn't have anything. Neville was never some master worker. I for one said all the women in NXT were incredibly overrated and am not gonna act shocked when Meiko Satomura is still pumping out MOTYCS while they're wreckig their bodies because they don't know how (really only about Sasha) to work. Sure, Cesaro's work has degenerated as well, but he was the best wrestler in the world around 2014 while he was on the main roster and every one of the indy guys has had an acclaimed career prior to their WWE life. It's not just "main roster-bad, NXT-good". Getting lazy and coming up with inefficient shtick is widely different than your reputation sinking outside of a plastic environment.

[Fando]

kinda works both ways since they're the underdogs you get people fuming about Rollins and Owens tightly worked out choreography and table spots but give a pass when Bayley looks a step behind going through spots with Asuka, or when Sasha and Charlotte badly telegraph a table spot that bombs.

 

Anyway, I 'd go with Charlotte for character work but Sasha seems to have more chemistry with a variety of opponents.

[Therealheel]

This might sound a bit extreme but I feel Charlotte is the best talent WWE has , her growth over this past year has been leaps and bounds ahead of Sasha , Charlotte has been consistent on a night to night basis and consistency goes a long way with me when it comes to what I respect in my wrestling. I not only see it with her wrestling but you can see within her character work that its evolved so much more , Sasha and her Boss stuff has not really changed at all. Charlotte is building a brand for herself that is going to flourish for many years in the business , on top , always , just like her father did , the trends and the comparison between the two are similar , they are both consistent work horses who perform at a top notch level as champion. I feel that you can count on Charlotte on a big stage moment every time , with out fail she has proven to perform at a level above everybody she is in the ring with and making the person she wrestles look good. She is her fathers daughter and its un fair because its true when she says she is genetically superior. I think that people and fans are just going to have get used to this fact about her , except it and just move on. Sasha will be long forgotten in five years time , just too frail.

[WingedEagle]

Its not all that farfetched. Reigns was incredible earlier in the year but I haven't loved the Rusev feud and he certainly doesn't deliver on the mic like Charlotte. Would still have her quite comfortably behind Styles, but she's been the best act on Raw for quite some time.